New Worldwide Handicap System

Russman · 17-07-2019 2:30pm

Seve OB wrote: »

but for arguments sake i did mine anyway

i'm currently 12.7 after a shocking run off 10 .1's in a row, would have been 11 if another was allowed this is a bad run and not reflective of my ability, actually played well & hit 10 GIR (inc a putt for eagle) in reg last round but putter was shocking and 8 3putts

USGA would have me at 13.6

however there were a few good rounds early on. so if my next 4 rounds are the same as my last 4 rounds, i would jump to 16. i know we all like to blow our own trumpet, but a 16 handicap is way to high for me, i'm so much better than that.

I think that exact scenario is supposed to be one of the good points of the new system. Insofar as its a lot more fluid and arguably reflective of your more recent form, as opposed to (depending on how many games you play) a good score and big cut from last season still impacting your current level.

Seve OB · 17-07-2019 2:59pm

Russman wrote: »

I think that exact scenario is supposed to be one of the good points of the new system. Insofar as its a lot more fluid and arguably reflective of your more recent form, as opposed to (depending on how many games you play) a good score and big cut from last season still impacting your current level.

yea but i have no big cuts in there, actually just the one cut of .6

i have been down as low as 10.8 2, maybe 3 years ago. i probably haven't been any higher than 14 in the last 13 years and to be honest anytime i went that far it wasn't long before i was back down.

probably have played off 13 most of the time and then 12.

to give me 16 would be ridiculous.

to make matters worse, looking at it, i could very easily hit 19 over my next 6 rounds or so. i could do that in 2 weeks if I wanted to build my handicap...... hell, I could do it even if I was trying to get cut

thankfully it seems there will be a 5 shot limit, however i still feel that is way to high.

i like the buffer zone, and would have liked them to have tried to build it into the system. how m,any times have you had a crap round going, but rather than give up, now you have a new competition just against yourself and try get into that buffer?

now with no buffer to aim for, much easier to just give up

martinkop · 17-07-2019 3:12pm

Seve OB wrote: »

i like the buffer zone, and would have liked them to have tried to build it into the system. how m,any times have you had a crap round going, but rather than give up, now you have a new competition just against yourself and try get into that buffer?

now with no buffer to aim for, much easier to just give up

You can use your highest counting score of the 8 from 20 to be your new buffer target when the round is going pear shaped

GreeBo · 17-07-2019 7:21pm

Russman wrote: »

I don't think it'll be the end of competitive golf, we'll just have to view it completely differently.
Its not going to be like now, where if you shoot a good score you'll know you're losing 0.8 or whatever, it'll take a bit of working out. Ok, you'll possibly know the worst round out of your 8 best is X, and if you beat that it'll reduce your handicap. Then again, if playing for handicap it doesn't really matter what anyone else is shooting.
I suspect there'll be some local variations though with regard to the max increase, similar to the ESR being mandatory in Ireland but not in the UK.

But then there seems to be many variables with it too, I dunno, I'm not convinced its any better than CSS. The concept of adjusted gross score just doesn't sit well with me tbh. Why does a score need to be adjusted ? You took the amount of shots you took. I mean, I played (very badly) in the Junior Cup a few weeks ago, had a nightmare hole on the back nine where 3 balls into a hazard led to an 11 - that's what went down on my card, so why would my score need adjusting ? I just don't get it.

The congu system has adjusted gross scores today though!?

mjsc1970 · 17-07-2019 9:09pm

I'd forgotten all about this.

I've been pretty much the same handicap now plus or minus 1 give or take for over 30 years. I don't fancy the wild fluctuations ahead.

I like the idea of you can't get more than 1.0 back in a golfing year. I think that's fair and all works out in the end and it puts the brakes on the handicap builders.

I think the current system works well in Ireland and UK. I don't see why it should be changed.

Enter name here · 17-07-2019 9:32pm

mjsc1970 wrote: »

I'd forgotten all about this.

I've been pretty much the same handicap now plus or minus 1 give or take for over 30 years. I don't fancy the wild fluctuations ahead.

I like the idea of you can't get more than 1.0 back in a golfing year. I think that's fair and all works out in the end and it puts the brakes on the handicap builders.

I think the current system works well in Ireland and UK. I don't see why it should be changed.

That's the problem the system doesn't work well, it severely penalises high handicappers for 1 good game of golf sometimes taking 3 years for that golfer to return to any form of competitive golf. How is that a fair system and inclusive for all? And if the system worked so well the world would be adopting the Irish system instead of vice versa.

Seve OB · 17-07-2019 9:46pm

will you go away with your 3 years to get back to competitive golf after one good game, thats twice you've brought that up and its just silly talk.

so a 17 handicapper with one good game, great game, lets say 43 points, 7 better than CSS, a 2.1 shot cut.
first of all i don't agree that he needs to get any shots back, he had a bumper round and was rewarded, nice one.
if he really can't compete at his new handicap with a mere 2 shot difference, he probably wasn't regularly competing off 17 anyway, we all know handicaps are meant to level the field to an extent and you should not be competing to win regularly off your handicap and if you are well then it is to high in the first place.

but he can get one full shot back in his next 10 games and another full shot in the first 10 games next year, so not long at all before he is back up to his 17

now lets go extreme, a 22 handicapper who shoots 46 points, a full 4 shot cut. to be honest he deserves to be cut and that be the end of that.

Enter name here · 17-07-2019 10:04pm

Seve OB wrote: »

will you go away with your 3 years to get back to competitive golf after one good game, thats twice you've brought that up and its just silly talk.

so a 17 handicapper with one good game, great game, lets say 43 points, 7 better than CSS, a 2.1 shot cut.
first of all i don't agree that he needs to get any shots back, he had a bumper round and was rewarded, nice one.
if he really can't compete at his new handicap with a mere 2 shot difference, he probably wasn't regularly competing off 17 anyway, we all know handicaps are meant to level the field to an extent and you should not be competing to win regularly off your handicap and if you are well then it is to high in the first place.

but he can get one full shot back in his next 10 games and another full shot in the first 10 games next year, so not long at all before he is back up to his 17

now lets go extreme, a 22 handicapper who shoots 46 points, a full 4 shot cut. to be honest he deserves to be cut and that be the end of that.

Ok lets say the 60 yr old playing off 27, makes a few great putts and has and unbelievable game and shoots 42 points the css for the day is 35. Loses 3 shots off his/her handicap and then doesn't break 33 points again for who knows how long. Takes him/her 3 years at 1 shot per 12 months.

Now the silly talk is low handicappers wanting to win everything and complaining about mid to high handicappers. Well that's a grand idea drive all those members away from the game because you cant win everything. This is why is are divisions. Are you prepared to pay the extra membership and green fees when your club only has 40 or so active members playing?
Personally I like the challenge of trying to beat high handicappers gives me a challenge to go out each day and shoot low.

Seve OB · 17-07-2019 10:22pm

nobody should expect to be regularly breaking 33 points off any handicap. thats the principle of the system.

if someone ends up on a handicap that is to low for them such as a 60+ year old guy, well then they can have it reviewed. decent clubs will do it without asking. my dad has been given plenty of shots back over the years upon review.

not all clubs have divisions every week, my club doesn't.

Enter name here · 17-07-2019 10:30pm

Seve OB wrote: »

nobody should expect to be regularly breaking 33 points off any handicap. thats the principle of the system.

if someone ends up on a handicap that is to low for them such as a 60+ year old guy, well then they can have it reviewed. decent clubs will do it without asking. my dad has been given plenty of shots back over the years upon review.

not all clubs have divisions every week, my club doesn't.

Obviously no convincing you, having played under both systems for a number of years. The new system is a much fairer system and more indicative of how you are currently playing. It makes it fairer for all levels of golf.
And for players to actually gain 5 shots back takes so many bad games and so long to accomplish it can be hardly worth it.
The best thing from my point of view is the slope rating differential from course to course which will take into consideration each course based on that. It will make inter club playing and competitions more competitive.

Seve OB · 17-07-2019 11:11pm

Enter name here wrote: »

Obviously no convincing you, having played under both systems for a number of years. The new system is a much fairer system and more indicative of how you are currently playing. It makes it fairer for all levels of golf.
And for players to actually gain 5 shots back takes so many bad games and so long to accomplish it can be hardly worth it.
The best thing from my point of view is the slope rating differential from course to course which will take into consideration each course based on that. It will make inter club playing and competitions more competitive.

clearly not but i do agree with the rest of this post

martinkop · 18-07-2019 9:22am

Seems to me that the new system reflects current form, while the existing system reflects potential ability.

Russman · 18-07-2019 9:28am

Seve OB wrote: »

nobody should expect to be regularly breaking 33 points off any handicap. thats the principle of the system.
.

This is the bit that IMO for whatever reason, the vast, vast majority of club golfers don't know/get/agree with/accept etc.
From what I've seen and heard over the years there's a fairly widely held view that, for example a 10 handicapper should be in or around 10 over par, most of the time. I've genuinely never once, in 35 years playing since being a juvenile, heard anyone refer to your handicap as being your potential.
That's not to say these people are correct, just there's been a communication breakdown somewhere along the line and an understanding of what your handicap actually is, hasn't been widely promoted.
Maybe under the WHS, it'll change with effectively a handicap being regenerated ever 20 rounds. I know it's a rolling thing overall, but a completely new set of numbers will be in play 20 rounds after your first WHS handicap, so maybe guys will pay a bit more attention.

GreeBo · 18-07-2019 9:58am

Russman wrote: »

This is the bit that IMO for whatever reason, the vast, vast majority of club golfers don't know/get/agree with/accept etc.
From what I've seen and heard over the years there's a fairly widely held view that, for example a 10 handicapper should be in or around 10 over par, most of the time. I've genuinely never once, in 35 years playing since being a juvenile, heard anyone refer to your handicap as being your potential.
That's not to say these people are correct, just there's been a communication breakdown somewhere along the line and an understanding of what your handicap actually is, hasn't been widely promoted.
Maybe under the WHS, it'll change with effectively a handicap being regenerated ever 20 rounds. I know it's a rolling thing overall, but a completely new set of numbers will be in play 20 rounds after your first WHS handicap, so maybe guys will pay a bit more attention.

If people actually read how the CONGU handicap is calculated its obvious that its not an average...since...well, it doesnt involve calculating an average.

Its far easier to get cut than get an increase (0.1 max vs up to a full shot per shot)
You can get exceptional reductions
You can only increase 1.0 from your lowest
High scores are adjusted down to net double bogeys
There is a buffer zone based on your current handicap

From the above it should be clear to anyone that cares enough to have an opinion that its nothing to do with what you should be scoring on average.

GreeBo · 18-07-2019 9:59am

Enter name here wrote: »

Ok lets say the 60 yr old playing off 27, makes a few great putts and has and unbelievable game and shoots 42 points the css for the day is 35. Loses 3 shots off his/her handicap and then doesn't break 33 points again for who knows how long. Takes him/her 3 years at 1 shot per 12 months.

Now the silly talk is low handicappers wanting to win everything and complaining about mid to high handicappers. Well that's a grand idea drive all those members away from the game because you cant win everything. This is why is are divisions. Are you prepared to pay the extra membership and green fees when your club only has 40 or so active members playing?
Personally I like the challenge of trying to beat high handicappers gives me a challenge to go out each day and shoot low.

This guy will have a 3 shot buffer so will in all likelihood be in his buffer most of the time anyway...which is exactly the point.
If he isnt then he will 0.1 his way back to where he should be.
There is no right to have a competitive handicap everytime you step on the course, irrespective of how well or badly you are playing!

mike12 · 18-07-2019 10:04am

The best 8 rounds are spread out over 20 rounds it's not like u will have a 72 replaced by a 92 you will have had average rounds inbetween.
I think it will be a max of 3 non comp rounds allowed plus u will have to have played X amount of competitions to have a competition handicap same as u do now.

U have to remember most Americans aren't members or play member comps.

The swings won't be huge. U see plenty of guys getting a shot or 2 back so it's a bit of a myth that if u get a big cuts it's takes 3 years to go back up.

RoadRunner · 18-07-2019 10:06am

Seve OB wrote: »

so if my next 4 rounds are the same as my last 4 rounds, i would jump to 16

This is why I think it will ruin competition golf. Easy to build a massive HC quickly.

RoadRunner · 18-07-2019 10:29am

Enter name here wrote: »

It will make inter club playing and competitions more competitive.

20 rounds could be done in what 7 or 8 weeks by some people. Shoot 130+ each round. Handicapped interclub golf will become a joke.

The american system works for the yanks, but they don't play in competitions each week like we do. Their golf is different. They play against their buddies with the only goal of taking the money. Mulligan good on that one again jim?

Russman · 18-07-2019 10:50am

GreeBo wrote: »

If people actually read how the CONGU handicap is calculated its obvious that its not an average...since...well, it doesnt involve calculating an average.
Its far easier to get cut than get an increase (0.1 max vs up to a full shot per shot)

You can get exceptional reductions

You can only increase 1.0 from your lowest

High scores are adjusted down to net double bogeys

There is a buffer zone based on your current handicap

From the above it should be clear to anyone that cares enough to have an opinion that its nothing to do with what you should be scoring on average.

Ohh I totally agree. Its obvious since you get cut in bigger increments than you can increase by. But I'd suggest a huge amount of golfers, particularly (at the risk of causing some offence) older golfers, have never and will never read a CONGU manual of any sort, or even thought the whole argument through. These are guys who are about to go into the 3rd handicap system of their golfing lives.
Its also a fairly simple thought to hold, 10 handicap = 10 over. TBH my issue is that I think the GUI and/or the clubs maybe should have done more to promote an explanation of handicap rather than just have it in a manual or on a website, given their target market.

Enter name here · 18-07-2019 1:03pm

RoadRunner wrote: »

20 rounds could be done in what 7 or 8 weeks by some people. Shoot 130+ each round. Handicapped interclub golf will become a joke.

The american system works for the yanks, but they don't play in competitions each week like we do. Their golf is different. They play against their buddies with the only goal of taking the money. Mulligan good on that one again jim?

It works well in countries with even more competitions than Ireland for example Australia, New Zealand and Asia. You can still only improve shots on your lowest score in any rolling 12 month period. In addition even playing 20 comp rounds at your own club @ 5 euros a round is 100 euro and as you say 6 or 7 weeks of bad golf to what win a 100 or 200 euro prize? So if you currently played off 12 and have been as low as 10 not matter how much you try and blow it out the max is still 15 and that's a hell of a lot of bad golf to even achieve that.

Enter name here · 18-07-2019 1:20pm

GreeBo wrote: »

There is no right to have a competitive handicap everytime you step on the course, irrespective of how well or badly you are playing!

Funniest thing I heard in a while, now I understand why Irish golfers win so rarely on the PGA. So if i was to believe you golfers shouldn't be competitive each time they walk onto a course? If that is the case why even bother with competitions? Why not just do as the Americans do and play a few cash games with the lads.

slingerz · 18-07-2019 2:12pm

martinkop wrote: »

Seems to me that the new system reflects current form, while the existing system reflects potential ability.

i can see a lot of people going out of form a few weeks out from the captains/presidents prizes..

GreeBo · 18-07-2019 4:08pm

Enter name here wrote: »

Funniest thing I heard in a while, now I understand why Irish golfers win so rarely on the PGA. So if i was to believe you golfers shouldn't be competitive each time they walk onto a course? If that is the case why even bother with competitions? Why not just do as the Americans do and play a few cash games with the lads.

No.
Why would you think you should still be competitive if you are playing badly?
If that was the case, why not calculate your handicap after 9 holes to make you more competitive on the back 9?
Why not after every hole?

Yeah, thats why Irish golfers do "so" badly, nothing to do with population at all.

spacecoyote · 21-07-2019 7:32am

Seve OB wrote: »

of course what you guys are forgetting with working out your handicaps per USGA is that this will not actually be your handicap, it will be your handicap index and your playing handicap will then vary from that from course to course!!!!

And from tee box to tee box presumably too, given slope would be different for each box at each club

Poker Face · 16-09-2019 6:05pm

Coming in Nov 2020

https://www.golfnet.ie/news/golfnet/4434/new-handicap-system-confirmed-for-november-2020

Dotzie · 16-09-2019 6:12pm

Under the new system a player’s handicap will be based on the average of eight best scores from their last 20 rounds. WHS will also take into account factors currently not fully represented in the existing handicapping procedure through a course and slope rating system.

Are current handicaps going to change under the new slope system? Because if it does surely by advertising this the bandits out there will go out and shoot high scores to get a new inflated handicap

Mantis Toboggan · 16-09-2019 8:57pm

Think this could be a nightmare, maximum handicaps of 54 is silly and will just lead to more slow play. Whole thing seems far too complicated. I think the current system works quite well.

fred funk }{ · 16-09-2019 9:40pm

Hopefully there'll be something to stop handicap building because as it is it looks like heaven for the bandits.

HighLine · 16-09-2019 9:54pm

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

Think this could be a nightmare, maximum handicaps of 54 is silly and will just lead to more slow play. Whole thing seems far too complicated. I think the current system works quite well.

That has been in place for over a year. I would be more worried about the provision to be introduced to allow a player to get back up to 5 shots in a calendar year.

I also agree that the current system works well.

fred funk }{ · 16-09-2019 10:13pm

Maybe I'm being a bit dramatic but this could ruin golf as we know it lads. It seems quite easy to increase your handicap by several shots and quickly too.

New Worldwide Handicap System

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