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Green Party disintegration / split

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,014 ✭✭✭MacronvFrugals


    The CETA ratification will have the wolves at Ryan's door...


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,283 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    The CETA ratification will have the wolves at Ryan's door...

    I hadnt read much in to ceta but after reading this : https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/commentanalysis/arid-40219565.html , CETA sounds fantastic, ratcheting in market liberalisation and privatisation and its going to bury the greens, how can one trade deal deliver so much good


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,014 ✭✭✭MacronvFrugals


    I hadnt read much in to ceta but after reading this : https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/commentanalysis/arid-40219565.html , CETA sounds fantastic, ratcheting in market liberalisation and privatisation and its going to bury the greens, how can one trade deal deliver so much good

    To the people who got the affluent gardeners 10 seats its a concerning development added with fact it was supposed to be in for a vote Christmas week when we we're all concerned over Brexit with very little debate.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,283 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    To the people who got the affluent gardeners 10 seats its a concerning development added with fact it was supposed to be in for a vote Christmas week when we we're all concerned over Brexit with very little debate.

    it always puzzles me when you have Green Party supporters oppose something like this treaty under the guise of 'workers rights' when they themselves or the people they stand shoulder to shoulder with in support are the ones hiring au-pairs paid half nothing or mistreating cleaners etc.. workers rights only matter when its not their workers.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,365 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    it always puzzles me when you have Green Party supporters oppose something like this treaty under the guise of 'workers rights' when they themselves or the people they stand shoulder to shoulder with in support are the ones hiring au-pairs paid half nothing or mistreating cleaners etc.. workers rights only matter when its not their workers.

    Sounds like you have some pantomime-villain version in your head of the average green party voter. Let me guess they have the following traits:
    • Obnoxiously tells everyone about how virtuous they are
    • Delights in informing their friends and colleagues about the many ways in which they are killing the planet through their own actions
    • Lives in a wealthy area but patronises working class people
    • Doesn't actually practice what they preach (flies a lot, drives a big car etc)
    • Generally can't see the wood for the trees


    You do realise that the above is a caricature right? Half of my family and a lot of my own friends voted for the Greens in the last election and none of the above applies to any of them.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,014 ✭✭✭MacronvFrugals


    it always puzzles me when you have Green Party supporters oppose something like this treaty under the guise of 'workers rights' when they themselves or the people they stand shoulder to shoulder with in support are the ones hiring au-pairs paid half nothing or mistreating cleaners etc.. workers rights only matter when its not their workers.

    100%, Ryan and the wealthy gardeners forget it was the #VoteLeftTransferLeft campaign that helped them out big time.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,283 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    Sounds like you have some pantomime-villain version in your head of the average green party voter. Let me guess they have the following traits:
    • Obnoxiously tells everyone about how virtuous they are
    • Delights in informing their friends and colleagues about the many ways in which they are killing the planet through their own actions
    • Lives in a wealthy area but patronises working class people
    • Doesn't actually practice what they preach (flies a lot, drives a big car etc)
    • Generally can't see the wood for the trees


    You do realise that the above is a caricature right? Half of my family and a lot of my own friends voted for the Greens in the last election and none of the above applies to any of them.

    the handful of outspoken green voters I've ever met in my life always fit the same profile

    lives in a wealthy Dublin suburb
    cycle on the weekend for fun
    2x new SUV in the driveway on pcp changed every 3 years
    au-pair or house cleaner or both a few days a week
    females of the house vegan or veggie and tell you about it.
    Irish times bought every day.
    Not a shred of knowledge of how the ordinary person can't live like them.

    Obviously theres a lot of green voters who are the student or 20 something children of people like this who do not yet have that lifestyle , but its always a similar outcome.

    The Green Party is there for upper middle class city dwellers and suburbanites who already have great access to services and public transport.

    There is literally no apetite for the greens in rural, working class or outside m50 commuter demographics.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,654 ✭✭✭kksaints


    the handful of outspoken green voters I've ever met in my life always fit the same profile

    lives in a wealthy Dublin suburb
    cycle on the weekend for fun
    2x new SUV in the driveway on pcp changed every 3 years
    au-pair or house cleaner or both a few days a week
    females of the house vegan or veggie and tell you about it.
    Irish times bought every day.
    Not a shred of knowledge of how the ordinary person can't live like them.

    Obviously theres a lot of green voters who are the student or 20 something children of people like this who do not yet have that lifestyle , but its always a similar outcome.

    The Green Party is there for upper middle class city dwellers and suburbanites who already have great access to services and public transport.

    There is literally no apetite for the greens in rural, working class or outside m50 commuter demographics.

    Carlow-Kilkenny has elected Greens a few times including this election and it's a strong rural economy and community minded constituency.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,283 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    kksaints wrote: »
    Carlow-Kilkenny has elected Greens a few times including this election and it's a strong rural economy and community minded constituency.

    That was down to Mary White herself rather than any specific green voting, her replacement got in on the 10th count by the skin of his teeth.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,014 ✭✭✭MacronvFrugals


    That was down to Mary White herself rather than any specific green voting, her replacement got in on the 10th count by the skin of his teeth.

    Probably on Kathleen Funchion's transfers also


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  • Registered Users Posts: 26,283 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    Probably on Kathleen Funchion's transfers also

    thats it, on the 'anyone but ff/fg / vote 'left' brigade


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,014 ✭✭✭MacronvFrugals


    thats it, on the 'anyone but ff/fg / vote 'left' brigade

    Same with Dublin central, in the days before GE2020 SF advocated locally for Neasa Hourigan transfers from Mary Lou.

    Lol getting in off the back of lefties then trying to push through investor courts without debate, Ryan will be left all alone surrounded by advisors by the end of the year.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,325 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    100%, Ryan and the wealthy gardeners forget it was the #VoteLeftTransferLeft campaign that helped them out big time.


    That's not true, if it was the case then Saoirse McHugh would have gotten elected in at least one.

    People vote green from all quarters for environmental reasons. You might be right or left, but you'll give them transfers for that reason.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,365 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    the handful of outspoken green voters I've ever met in my life always fit the same profile

    lives in a wealthy Dublin suburb
    cycle on the weekend for fun
    2x new SUV in the driveway on pcp changed every 3 years
    au-pair or house cleaner or both a few days a week
    females of the house vegan or veggie and tell you about it.
    Irish times bought every day.
    Not a shred of knowledge of how the ordinary person can't live like them.

    Obviously theres a lot of green voters who are the student or 20 something children of people like this who do not yet have that lifestyle , but its always a similar outcome.

    The Green Party is there for upper middle class city dwellers and suburbanites who already have great access to services and public transport.

    There is literally no apetite for the greens in rural, working class or outside m50 commuter demographics.


    Again that's a lazy stereotype. My friends and family literally check none of those boxes (apart from one of them who does commute to work by bicycle). They aren't students in their 20's or the children of wealthy parents either.

    Now I'm not saying that those people that you describe do not exist. Of course they do. I'm saying don't be under the impression that that caricature describes the majority of Green party voters. All you have to do is look at the raw numbers. There's no way that 7.1% of the electorate falls into that narrow description

    There are plenty of normal, working people, earning average salaries, living in normal areas (mostly in urban areas - a smaller % in rural areas), who are concerned enough about the ramping up of climate change and the breakdown of the environment that they voted Green.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,014 ✭✭✭MacronvFrugals


    That's not true, if it was the case then Saoirse McHugh would have gotten elected in at least one.

    People vote green from all quarters for environmental reasons. You might be right or left, but you'll give them transfers for that reason.

    They do indeed but it wont produce 10 seats, take Dublin Central not a chance in hell that goes Green without the nod from SF, Ryan knew this well hence his previous opposition to CETA.

    I voted Green myself because i actually thought they had better ideals than some bike lanes, this CETA bill has annoyed me and I'd imagine many others and for what? to have some shiny bicycle lanes in return for investor courts.

    Saoirse getting over 6000 votes in Mayo was quite impressive i thought.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,283 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    That's not true, if it was the case then Saoirse McHugh would have gotten elected in at least one.

    People vote green from all quarters for environmental reasons. You might be right or left, but you'll give them transfers for that reason.

    Saoirses marxist views and rabble rousing reactionary style of politics made her unelectable to many , she is not a barometer of the Green Party.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,435 ✭✭✭Imreoir2


    the handful of outspoken green voters I've ever met in my life always fit the same profile

    lives in a wealthy Dublin suburb
    cycle on the weekend for fun
    2x new SUV in the driveway on pcp changed every 3 years
    au-pair or house cleaner or both a few days a week
    females of the house vegan or veggie and tell you about it.
    Irish times bought every day.
    Not a shred of knowledge of how the ordinary person can't live like them.

    Obviously theres a lot of green voters who are the student or 20 something children of people like this who do not yet have that lifestyle , but its always a similar outcome.

    The Green Party is there for upper middle class city dwellers and suburbanites who already have great access to services and public transport.

    There is literally no apetite for the greens in rural, working class or outside m50 commuter demographics.

    I'm a Green voter.

    -I live in a fairly small town and come from rural Ireland about 6 miles from the nearest vllage.
    -I cycle to the shops regularly, and sometimes in the evening for fun.
    -I have 0 SUVs and would never buy one
    -No au-pair, and I'm the house cleaner in my house.
    -The female does not eat red meat for health reasons
    -I buy the local paper once a week
    -I am a very ordinary person


  • Registered Users Posts: 245 ✭✭Oymyakon


    Is the Just Transition Greens or similar left wing group a realistic electoral political party going forward? I understand PBP have recently rebranded themselves as eco socialists. Can the current Green Party win back respect of the electorate with a change of leadership/internal politics or is a completely fresh body required to rejuvenate green politics in Ireland.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,283 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    Oymyakon wrote: »
    Is the Just Transition Greens or similar left wing group a realistic electoral political party going forward? I understand PBP have recently rebranded themselves as eco socialists. Can the current Green Party win back respect of the electorate with a change of leadership/internal politics or is a completely fresh body required to rejuvenate green politics in Ireland.

    Theyre done for in the next election. Green supporters will think they made too many concessions , non green supporters think theyve done too much harm , its always the way with coalitions here though, the small party suffers


  • Registered Users Posts: 245 ✭✭Oymyakon


    Theyre done for in the next election. Green supporters will think they made too many concessions , non green supporters think theyve done too much harm , its always the way with coalitions here though, the small party suffers

    As it stands it’s hard to see anyone bar Eamon, Catherine and Joe retaining their seats. Neasa may as well but will she even be a Green next time around?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 26,283 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    Oymyakon wrote: »


    As it stands it’s hard to see anyone bar Eamon, Catherine and Joe retaining their seats. Neasa may as well but will she even be a Green next time around?

    I actually dont think ryan will keep his, like whats his legacy here, 350 million quid for cycling infrastructure and falling asleep in the convention centre a few times.


  • Registered Users Posts: 245 ✭✭Oymyakon


    I actually dont think ryan will keep his, like whats his legacy here, 350 million quid for cycling infrastructure and falling asleep in the convention centre a few times.

    No doubt he’ll have some solid green wins to bring back to the electorate, as much as I don’t rate his GP leadership, I think he’s delivering some good ‘on paper’ green policies, notably the ban on new oil & gas exploration this week. He has a solid enough base there to retain a vote, don’t forget he topped the poll last year.

    Could be proven completely wrong though!


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,283 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    Oymyakon wrote: »
    No doubt he’ll have some solid green wins to bring back to the electorate, as much as I don’t rate his GP leadership, I think he’s delivering some good ‘on paper’ green policies, notably the ban on new oil & gas exploration this week. He has a solid enough base there to retain a vote, don’t forget he topped the poll last year.

    Could be proven completely wrong though!

    If the price of petrol rises by 10 cent that will hurt him, obviously oil and gas exploration permits are at an arms length to petrol prices but its easy to conflate the two and stir up anti green sentiment.

    I personally think Ireland should be maximising domestic energy production until such a time as nuclear becomes acceptable or renewables viable so think that green policy is very short sighted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 245 ✭✭Oymyakon


    I actually think the oil and gas thing is nothing more than setting a nice precedent as Ireland banning new exploration licenses is obviously a drop in the pond globally as we will just import energy from abroad until such a time we can be self sufficient in renewables or nuclear.

    I’m no expert in renewable potential in Ireland but if the possibility is there, what we really need to be doing is throwing the kitchen sink at our renewable energy projects to become a global leader in clean energy.

    I also believe in the transport and balanced regional development aspect of the Irish Green Party’s election programme. But as you correctly stated, this is all short sighted unless we get ahead of our energy requirements for the future.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,501 ✭✭✭PommieBast


    Oymyakon wrote: »
    Is the Just Transition Greens or similar left wing group a realistic electoral political party going forward? I understand PBP have recently rebranded themselves as eco socialists.
    A major problem with the Green movement is that it has been sucked into the orbit of leftwing virtue signalling, where whatever party is in vogue soon falls into acrimony and gets wiped out at the subsequent election. Rinse repeat. Problem is that I am not sure if a purely ecological party that is comfortable with more rightwing non-green policies will get anywhere.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,540 ✭✭✭Leonard Hofstadter


    If the price of petrol rises by 10 cent that will hurt him, obviously oil and gas exploration permits are at an arms length to petrol prices but its easy to conflate the two and stir up anti green sentiment.

    I personally think Ireland should be maximising domestic energy production until such a time as nuclear becomes acceptable or renewables viable so think that green policy is very short sighted.

    Won't make any difference to him, his base is Dublin Bay South, plenty of the type of people you so eloquently described, they can afford a 10-20 cent hike in a litre of petrol or diesel in their sleep. It would probably increase his vote share if anything - mind you I've been quite surprised at the level of opposition to the cycle lanes in Sandymount, just goes to show people are only interested in virtue signalling on the environment as long as it doesn't inconvenience them.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,254 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Won't make any difference to him, his base is Dublin Bay South, plenty of the type of people you so eloquently described, they can afford a 10-20 cent hike in a litre of petrol or diesel in their sleep. It would probably increase his vote share if anything - mind you I've been quite surprised at the level of opposition to the cycle lanes in Sandymount, just goes to show people are only interested in virtue signalling on the environment as long as it doesn't inconvenience them.

    Well the plan for the Sandymount cycle lanes forgets to make place for north bound traffic. That ends up with that traffic going through roads that are too residential. The current plan will increase pressure on Merrion Road.

    They needed to complete the replacement bridge for the Merrion Gates.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,063 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Sunday Times expecting Patrick Costello (Hazel Chu's husband) and Nessa Hourigan to vote against CETA and hence be booted from the parliamentary party; with Una Power, Cllr in Dun Laoghaire to walk if the party is whipped to vote for CETA.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/green-rebels-neasa-hourigan-and-patrick-costello-poised-to-quit-over-ceta-deal-5bj8jr5r7


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,365 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    Hourigan was always one of the most likely to go. She came out very strongly against going into coalition and then seemed to be annoyed when she was passed over for a ministry.

    Costello didn't back going into government either but I figured he'd likely stay as long as his wife was Lord Mayor. With some sitting TDs jumping ship the starting of a new party would move closer.

    If they did start a new party that would be kinda nuts since the Dail already has at least 1 TD from each of the following:
    • Sinn Fein
    • Green Party
    • Social Democrats
    • Labour
    • PBP
    • Solidarity
    • Rise
    • I4C

    Perhaps if they got their act together and stopped fragmenting the left might have actually led a government by now!


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  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,063 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Chu's mayoral term ends at the end of June - whether the Greens can hold together long enough to get to then could be questionable.

    Further crumbling on DCC could threaten the remaining years of the mayoral rotation; Labour, SD and I'm presuming FF again in whatever order.


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