UN Migration Pact Ireland's Position?

Sand · 06-12-2018 8:05pm

hill16bhoy wrote: »

The Polish state has not existed since the 10th century. That's simply a historical lie.

I had already read my post back and tweaked it to clarify. Many states of Poland emerged as monarchies and republics rose and fell, the first recognised example in the 10th century. Every time the last incarnation of the Polish state fell, it re-emerged as a political expression of the Polish nation and people, distinct from the peoples around them.

In that context its incredibly ignorant to ask 'What culture' when Polish nationality and culture is what endured after kings and presidents failed.

demfad wrote: »

Your continual assertion that the compact is to facilitate mass migration appears to be false at best.

No, the compact actually states it openly:

11. With this comprehensive approach, we aim to facilitate safe, orderly and regular migration

13. To achieve this, we commit to facilitate and ensure safe, orderly and regular migration for the benefit of all.

18. We further commit to ensure timely and full implementation of the 2030 Agenda for Sustainable Development, as well as to build upon and invest in the implementation of other existing frameworks, in order to enhance the overall impact of the Global Compact to facilitate safe, orderly and regular migration.

Could you stop repeatedly using the phrase "Mass migration"?

I find it a useful distinction to make. I'm not opposed to the concept of people travelling to, working in or settling in foreign countries. I am against mass migration: a level of migration which effects rapid demographic changes on the host country. If I didn't make the distinction, people would be wasting their time arguing against positions I don't hold.

So States are soverign to determine their migration policy. The compact just insures that problems that cause migration are identified and minimized if possible.

The compact is a series of commitments which are made with the purpose of facilitating mass migration. Sovereign states do not lightly sign up to commitments with the purpose of breaking those commitments. Having signed up to this compact, advocates of mass migration will use it to compel Irish governments to meet the commitments made.

Captain Obvious · 06-12-2018 8:16pm

hill16bhoy wrote: »

Sweden doesn't record crime statistics based on ethnicity.

A policy brought in under a right wing government as a cost saving measure.

Ireland doesn't record ethnicity of offenders either. Prisons do though.

Sand · 06-12-2018 8:31pm

hill16bhoy wrote: »

Sweden doesn't record crime statistics based on ethnicity.

They stopped reporting crime statistics based on ethnicity. The last statistics were issued in 2005. The 2005 figures showed that foreign born immigrants were 2.5 times more likely to be criminals than native Swedes (defined as Swedes with 2 Swedish born parents). Those born in Sweden to two foreign born parents were twice as likely to be criminals.

hill16bhoy · 06-12-2018 8:50pm

Sand wrote: »

I had already read my post back and tweaked it to clarify. Many states of Poland emerged as monarchies and republics rose and fell, the first recognised example in the 10th century. Every time the last incarnation of the Polish state fell, it re-emerged as a political expression of the Polish nation and people, distinct from the peoples around them.

In that context its incredibly ignorant to ask 'What culture' when Polish nationality and culture is what endured after kings and presidents failed.

I never said there was no such thing as Polish culture, and I don't think the poster you're referring to (from back on page 1 of the thread) was saying such either.

Poland and what is Polish has historically been a pretty nebulous concept, given that much of what is present day Poland was formerly part of Germany, while much of present day Ukraine, Lithuania and Belarus were formerly part of Poland.

That said, I think you can define plenty of things as examples of Polish culture, in the same way you can describe plenty of things as examples of Irish culture.

But defining what is not "Polish culture" or "Irish culture" or anywhere else's culture is a much more difficult thing.

Poland had a rich Jewish culture, which, tragically, was effectively eliminated by World War II and the Holocaust. That was Polish culture as much as Jewish culture. However I somehow doubt that many people who are loudly anti-immigration would see it that way, and I'm not sure they would see any irony in that.

Culture never stands still - it's a living breathing, constantly evolving thing.

There are all different types of culture, and much, if not most, of what we define as culture was driven or fertilised by immigration or cross-pollination of ideas.

My user name contains the word "bhoy" - which is a reference to Celtic FC, a massive cultural force in its own right in Scotland, and one which would not exist but for immigration. The immigrants which founded and supported Celtic FC faced massive prejudice and bigotry for decades in Scotland, and that can still spill over even today.

So much of British musical culture is driven by descendants of Irish immigrants, from the Beatles to Dusty Springfield to The Smiths to Oasis to Ed Sheeran.

The influence of immigration from much further afield in British music is also unmistakable - ska, soul, trip hop, reggae, grime etc.

British culture, all of it, and all of it came about because of immigration.

I think there's a huge tendency on the part of those who are obsessed with demonising immigrants and immigration to confuse culture with laws.

When anti-immigation people talk about "our culture" and "our way of life", what they're doing is demonising people of non-white colour as lawless, marauding and inherently dangerous. It is to denigrate them as "rapists" and "murderers". This is always what it comes back to.

Those who hold up the governments of Poland, Hungary and Italy as a model to be emulated talk of "Christian values". Yet they cannot tell us how these governments uphold so called "Christian values", and they are simultaneously totally blind to and ignorant of the best of "Christian values" - they work explicitly against them.

Sand · 06-12-2018 9:38pm

hill16bhoy wrote: »

I never said there was no such thing as Polish culture, and I don't think the poster you're referring to (from back on page 1 of the thread) was saying such either.

Weisses did respond to the notion of Polish (and Hungarian) culture with the response "What culture". It was a stupid thing to say. We don't have to dwell on it.

Poland and what is Polish has historically been a pretty nebulous concept, given that much of what is present day Poland was formerly part of Germany, while much of present day Ukraine, Lithuania and Belarus were formerly part of Poland.

You are confusing the state with the nation - as I noted, the nation has been far more persistent than the state. The Polish nation largely inhabits the same territory it has done for over 1,000 years. Its ignorant to pretend that 'What is Polish' was historically a pretty nebulous concept.

Culture never stands still - it's a living breathing, constantly evolving thing.

Of course, but it typically develops organically over time by the people of that nation/culture. Its completely radical to deposit millions of people from entirely different places into that culture. To the extent it happened historically, it was always accompanied by strife and conflict: i.e. the fall of the Roman Empire.

There are all different types of culture, and much, if not most, of what we define as culture was driven or fertilised by immigration or cross-pollination of ideas.

If that were true, all cultures would be the same. That there are distinct cultures is because different groups of people developed different cultures. There was some 'cross-pollination' as you call it between neighbouring people, but cultural developments were largely driven by those people themselves.

With the advent of globalisation, there is an increasing 'Americanisation' of cultures in the last 100 years. If that's a good or a bad thing is arguable.

My user name contains the word "bhoy" - which is a reference to Celtic FC, a massive cultural force in its own right in Scotland, and one which would not exist but for immigration. The immigrants which founded and supported Celtic FC faced massive prejudice and bigotry for decades in Scotland, and that can still spill over even today.

Sure, and that explains the prism through which you view the issues of mass migration. You have a hammer, all problems are nails.

British culture, all of it, and all of it came about because of immigration.

Uh yes and no. Firstly, its problematic to talk about a British culture or a British people. There is English, Scottish and Welsh people each with distinct identities and cultures. 'British' is an imperial/globalist identity, not a national one like the Polish one (or indeed English, Scottish or Welsh). A loyal subject of the Empire could be British, from Montreal to Cape Town to Bombay to Sydney in a way they could not be English.

English, Scottish and Welsh culture did not come about because of immigration. They developed slowly over centuries. Even to the extent you might argue migrations played a role, that 'immigration' was resisted such as at the Battle of Hastings. The arrival of the Normans or the Saxons did change Britain, but the existing people did not welcome it.

Those who hold up the governments of Poland, Hungary and Italy as a model to be emulated talk of "Christian values". Yet they cannot tell us how these governments uphold so called "Christian values", and they are simultaneously totally blind to and ignorant of the best of "Christian values" - they work explicitly against them.

Weisses introduced Christian values to the thread. No one else did.

RobertKK · 06-12-2018 10:05pm

The biggest problem with this is the lack of debate, We live in a rather poor democracy if we have the government signing up to whatever (doesn't have to be this) and there is no public debate.
This is like our Dail in general, where there is a minor section of contrarian opinion and a large amount of group think.

Knowing our parliament, we will sign this with little to no debate.
I know too little about this to have a position. I have seen that an increasing number of countries are rejecting it. My issue is we the Irish people are kept in the dark and treated with ignorance.
We should have a public debate before the country signs anything, irrespective of how binding or not when it comes to what is signed.

When it comes to immigration in Europe. Hilary Clinton said Europe has done it's share, and must reduce immigration if Europe wants to fight the rise of far right wing parties.
I don't know what we are potentially signing, but if we are signing up for more immigration from outside of Europe, I do think Hilary Clinton is potentially correct in her assessment of it being counter productive to Europe.

Chaos Marine · 06-12-2018 10:16pm

hill16bhoy wrote: »

Ireland has national sovereignty. It has used that sovereignty to enter into agreements re internal migration as part of the EU.

Ireland has complete national sovereignty over migration from outside the EU. Why are you implying it doesn't, when you know it has?

I never said it doesn't. Stop trying to put words in my mouth or change what I said so you can argue against a strawman of your own making. I said Ireland giving up it's national sovereignty makes my blood run cold. As in, at some point in the future, Ireland cedes it's ability to self govern to the EU.

Why are you comparing the EU to the British empire, when any cursory reading of the situation could tell you the two things are entirely different, and that far from being an "empire", the EU is the exact opposite of such?

Your ability to read and reply to someone's else's words and actually understand their words is astoundingly poor. I said, again, that Ireland was controlled by the British Empire for almost a thousand years. The idea that Ireland would at some point surrender it's national sovereignty and ability to self govern to the EU as Verhofstadt's aim to turn the EU into some kind of superstate or imitation of the US but ruled by the beneficent arm of the morally superior Eurocrat doesn't sit right with me. At all. Is that any more clear for you? Would you like me to try and replicate what I've said with a crayon drawing through MS Paint?

Do you support free movement within the EU?

False fallacy. This is about mass migration from people outside of the EU. But for the record, not completely unchecked movement, no. I would expect at least a cursory examination of criminal records, reasons for travel etc.

If you don't, why not just come straight out and say you're in favour of Ireland leaving the EU, given that that would be the logical upshot of being against free movement?

Of course I'm in favour of Ireland leaving the EU. The EU is turning into authoritarian state.

If there is a causation effect between in-migration and wages going down, surely then, there should be a causation effect between out-migration and wages going up?

Another fallacy. You're assuming that if a country was in such a great state to begin with that there would be mass migration out of it, that the wages would be in that good a state to begin with. Or if you mean migration out or into a country at manageable levels, you're erroneously comparing two different things. I have absolutely no problem with regulated migration.

Surely then the USA, the world's greatest ever experiment in large scale in-migration, would thus prove that wages go down when there is large scale in-migration?

That's because the US had a massive requirement for people to fill basic jobs when that was more prevalent due to a more simplistic industrialised system. There is nowhere near the amount of demand for unskilled labour now as there was back then. To compare the two is massively disingenuous but going by your reply, I'm starting to see a pattern.

Surely the countries with significant out-migration would thus see the biggest rise in wages? How did that ever work out for Ireland?

Quite well actually. There weren't the jobs to support them and those that did work wouldn't have been able to support them with taxes etc. Again, the mass exodus from Ireland tended to happen back when low skilled labour was highly in demand unlike today. You can't compare the two without some serious mental gymnastics which you appear to be attempting in spades.

Do you support internal migration within countries? I mean, Dublin has changed beyond all recognition in the last 100 years? Why do you think that is?

If you think this is a credible point to make I'm honestly amazed you can type to begin with. Dublin isn't Ireland and Ireland isn't Dublin. For your argument to make even a lick of sense to anyone who isn't a doddering imbecile, you'd have to think the rest of Ireland hasn't progressed past the 1900s.

The main reason is because massive numbers of people have migrated to it - the vast majority from other parts of Ireland. In your language, that's "mass migration". It doesn't matter whether somebody moves to Dublin from Letterkenny or Lahore, they're still a migrant.

Again, you're asserting things I've never said and you're arguing against strawmen to win victories against. You're comparing someone who "migrates" from Cork to Dublin who would move from, lets say an Islamic country to a Christian country. Do you understand how absolutely insane that is? Are you going to try to compare dust to magma next?

Was this a good thing or a bad thing for Dublin?

How about Galway, which has grown massively in recent years?

Is the fact that massive numbers of Dubs have moved to Navan, Drogheda and Portlaoise a good thing for those towns?

They're "outsiders", they have migrated on a large scale to a different place.

How about pretty much every major city in the world, which all grew because of massive in-migration from other parts of whatever country they're in?

It's neither good nor bad because you have people from the same culture moving to different areas within the same culture. There will be regional differences of course but again, no where close to the differences you'd have from someone who moves an entirely different country to another.

How old are you? I haven't seen incompetent arguing of this level since I was in primary school.

Should Britain have abolished the Common Travel Area during the Troubles?

Considering the amount of terrorism going on from both sides in the North of Ireland, yes.

The Common Travel Area enabled/enables free movement for residency purposes from Ireland to the UK and vice versa.

From the 1970s to the 1990s, Irish people carried out large numbers of terrorist attacks in Britain. Surely then, by the same rationale that you use above, Irish people should have been stopped from moving to Britain? Yes?

If they failed a background check or had a history of violence, then yes, then Britain should have denied them access. Would that have stopped terror attacks in the UK? No but it would limited some of them.

On the flipside of that, if one was to be paranoid enough, couldn't one have argued back then - hell, you could argue it now - that if enough British people moved here as a result of free movement, we could have ended up rejoining the UK? Would that have been a legitimate reason to oppose the Common Travel Area?

Considering the volume of sexual assaults, crimes in countries like Sweden, Germany and France, it's not paranoia, it's simply looking at the observable results and saying "I don't want that."

I'm just trying to get your angle on all these questions, because it appears to me you're just one more poster trying to claim that racism has nothing to do with your views when it appears bleedin' obvious that it has everything to do with it.

All you've been doing is twisting my words, putting words in my mouth and trying to brow beat me by calling me a racist.

Tell me, do you at all feel even the smallest amount of guilt for watering down such a serious accusation? Just the littlest bit of guilt?

Actual racists tend to not care about being called racist for some reason and the likes of you calling everyone who doesn't kowtow to your banner for legitimate reasons only gives them ammunition to fob off accusations of racism as hyperbole to get their foot in the door.

It's because of people like you trying to shut down discussions about legitimate concerns with cries of racism, homophobia, islamophobia etc at the drop of a hat against people who aren't any of those things that far-right wing political parties on the rise across Europe because the "woke progressive" lefty governments have abandoned the common man and woman on the street who have to suffer the lack of jobs, housing and food that the government seems only too happy to give foreigners at the demands of our European overlords.

Before you respond, I want to make one thing abundantly clear, if you reply to me with more strawmen or arguments against things I have not said, I'll not bother to reply as there's no point.

oscarBravo · 06-12-2018 11:02pm

RobertKK wrote: »

We live in a rather poor democracy if we have the government signing up to whatever...

Has it somehow escaped your attention that we live in a representative democracy, which is explicitly designed around the idea that we elect a government to make decisions on our behalf?

RobertKK · 06-12-2018 11:15pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

Has it somehow escaped your attention that we live in a representative democracy, which is explicitly designed around the idea that we elect a government to make decisions on our behalf?

Does it exclude them from having public debates on things they may or may not sign the country up to?
If you keep the country ignorant on issues, then maybe they are representing no one, and maybe it makes politicians more open to influences beyond the people who elect them.
I just believe the population should be informed with issues debated as has happened in other countries when it has come to this issue.

demfad · 06-12-2018 11:16pm

Sand wrote: »

No, the compact actually states it openly:

Facilitating "Safe, Orderly and regular migration" describes actions toward exiting migration. It does not facilitate migration, in fact it reduces that prospect. It facilitates making migration safer etc.

You are deliberately and dishonestly misleading.

I find it a useful distinction to make. I'm not opposed to the concept of people travelling to, working in or settling in foreign countries. I am against mass migration: a level of migration which effects rapid demographic changes on the host country. If I didn't make the distinction, people would be wasting their time arguing against positions I don't hold.

To describe it as mass or otherwise you must substantiate and quantify it. How do you evaluate "rapid demographic change".

The compact is a series of commitments which are made with the purpose of facilitating mass migration.

The compact seeks to reduce existing migration and make migration safer. Your assertion is baseless.

Migration of peoples happen for a variety of reasons. You would think with the upcoming climate change cataclysm that opponents of migration would be advocates of a global response to human made climate breakdown or wars or other drivers of human movement. But no, your solution is based on barbed wire guns and firing statistics out to make these people appear lesser. It is petty, and ultimately it is stupid.

hill16bhoy · 06-12-2018 11:25pm

Sand wrote: »

Weisses did respond to the notion of Polish (and Hungarian) culture with the response "What culture". It was a stupid thing to say. We don't have to dwell on it.

I'm sure the poster can speak for themselves, but the way I took it was that they were asking a genuine question to the poster Eric Cartman about what Polish culture is, whether there is something "intrinsic" to it, and they asked specifically, is it "Christian values"? Now certainly, historically, a majority of people who considered themselves Polish were and are Christian, but by 1939, there were 3.5 million Jews in Poland.

So, one wonders, was Eric Cartman, or are you for that matter, claiming that "Christian values" are an intrinsic part of "Polishness". ie. if you're not a Christian, you can't consider yourself to be genuinely Polish?

I really hope the answer is "no".

A lot of people 80 years ago thought the answer was "yes", and that didn't work out very well, did it?

You are confusing the state with the nation - as I noted, the nation has been far more persistent than the state. The Polish nation largely inhabits the same territory it has done for over 1,000 years. Its ignorant to pretend that 'What is Polish' was historically a pretty nebulous concept.

There were many "peoples" who had the idea of themselves as "nations".

Are people who consider themselves Ruthenian or Galician, part of a Rutheenian or Galician "nation", or come from a background of people who thought such, part of the Polish nation?

Are they part of the Polish state? Of course they are.

Are ethnic Germans or Lithuanians or Ukrainians who grew up in Poland part of the Polish state? Of course they are.

By introducing the distinction between the idea of nation and state, you're actually admitting that borders are merely lines on a map, because then all states contain distinct "nations", as you put it. And that destroys the very concept of homogeneity that those of an anti-immigrant persuausion are obsessed with.

The alternative to this is that all states should have a hegemonic ethnic group. Again, historical experience tells us that this works out terribly.

Of course, but it typically develops organically over time by the people of that nation/culture. Its completely radical to deposit millions of people from entirely different places into that culture. To the extent it happened historically, it was always accompanied by strife and conflict: i.e. the fall of the Roman Empire.

Migration is organic. It isn't organic just as a result of the economic system the world has had for the last three centuries, which grew organically itself. It's organic because the world is one organic system, which has never stood still. All that cultural evolution that happened in Britain, the US, Europe, Asia, Africa and elsewhere was organic because it all arose from an organic movement of people.

It might not be the organic type of evolution you liked, but that doesn't mean it wasn't organic. States are not organic, they are artificial creations.

Strife and conflict unfortunately tends to be part of the human condition and the reason we have trans-national organisations ssuch as the EU and the UN is to prevent it.

All too often, that strife and conflict has been because of nationalism, a tragically misguided belief in the "purity" of nations and a tragically misguided belief in the superiority of "nations" and "peoples" over others.

In fact that misguided belief in racial purity and supposed "intrinsic", exclusionary parts of culture, has been the biggest blight on human history ever known.

If that were true, all cultures would be the same. That there are distinct cultures is because different groups of people developed different cultures. There was some 'cross-pollination' as you call it between neighbouring people, but cultural developments were largely driven by those people themselves.

With the advent of globalisation, there is an increasing 'Americanisation' of cultures in the last 100 years. If that's a good or a bad thing is arguable.

How would they be all the same? Cultures evolve differently in different places because people are all different, they do different things and go off on their own distinct paths and the contexts they exist in are different. The world is a very big place.

"White" US and Australian culture developed in a different ways from the British culture they were exported from. So did New Zealand culture. British culture went off in its own different directions.

The US has its own distinct and varied cultures which came about organically.

What we traditionally see as "Irish culture" is a product of many different influences - Celtic, pagan, different forms of Christianity, Viking, English, Norman, arguably even Spanish.

Cultures have always effectively died and new cultures have always evolved or grown from effectively nothing.

Sure, and that explains the prism through which you view the issues of mass migration. You have a hammer, all problems are nails.

Migration has always been around. Celtic FC is an example of a distinct cultural institution which was a product of migrants who faced bittter prejudice. It's an example of how cultures grow, change and fuse. It wouldn't be what it is without its Irish influence. It wouldn't be what it is without its setting in Glasgow and Scotland and how it became part of the cultural fabric of those places.

Uh yes and no. Firstly, its problematic to talk about a British culture or a British people. There is English, Scottish and Welsh people each with distinct identities and cultures. 'British' is an imperial/globalist identity, not a national one like the Polish one (or indeed English, Scottish or Welsh). A loyal subject of the Empire could be British, from Montreal to Cape Town to Bombay to Sydney in a way they could not be English.

English, Scottish and Welsh culture did not come about because of immigration. They developed slowly over centuries. Even to the extent you might argue migrations played a role, that 'immigration' was resisted such as at the Battle of Hastings. The arrival of the Normans or the Saxons did change Britain, but the existing people did not welcome it.

You're just proving my point about culture being nebulous and the concept of homogeneity or "homogenous culture" being a crock.

Britain over the last few centuries, for all its faults in terms of colonialism etc, has actually been a pretty good example of how a multi-cultural society can work. It's deeply diverse and heterogenous, and always was. Within England itself, there has always been massive diversity.

The culture of England, like Ireland, is a product of massively diverse influences from across Europe and the world.

Liverpool, for instance, is a world away from Sussex or Cornwall in terms of culture, and massively influenced by Irish immigration in a similar way to how Glasgow is.

But Britain has now demonstrated what the real danger is - and it isn't immigration, it's the demagogues in the press and politics who have shamelessly played to a fantasy idea of a racially pure, oppressed "real" England, and stirred up hatred against immigrants and outsiders for their own personal gain.

oscarBravo · 06-12-2018 11:28pm

RobertKK wrote: »

Does it exclude them from having public debates on things they may or may not sign the country up to?

It explicitly removes any obligation to do so, yes.

Do you want the government to ask the public's permission before it makes any decisions, or just decisions that you personally feel strongly about?

hill16bhoy · 07-12-2018 1:04am

Chaos Marine wrote: »

I never said it doesn't. Stop trying to put words in my mouth or change what I said so you can argue against a strawman of your own making. I said Ireland giving up it's national sovereignty makes my blood run cold. As in, at some point in the future, Ireland cedes it's ability to self govern to the EU.

It isn't a straw man. The only reason to use the words you used are to imply that Ireland has already lost or will lose national sovereignty.

Which is not true.

You are producing a straw man while simultanneously denying such and then projecting such onto somebody else.

That's classic gaslighting.

Your ability to read and reply to someone's else's words and actually understand their words is astoundingly poor. I said, again, that Ireland was controlled by the British Empire for almost a thousand years. The idea that Ireland would at some point surrender it's national sovereignty and ability to self govern to the EU as Verhofstadt's aim to turn the EU into some kind of superstate or imitation of the US but ruled by the beneficent arm of the morally superior Eurocrat doesn't sit right with me. At all. Is that any more clear for you? Would you like me to try and replicate what I've said with a crayon drawing through MS Paint?

You are explicitly comparing the EU to the British Empire.

And you are explicitly wrong.

There's that straw man again.

And you'd do well to lose the aggressive tone, especially given that it again appears to be a function of some more projection in your argument.

False fallacy. This is about mass migration from people outside of the EU. But for the record, not completely unchecked movement, no. I would expect at least a cursory examination of criminal records, reasons for travel etc.

It was a simple question.

Of course I'm in favour of Ireland leaving the EU. The EU is turning into authoritarian state.

Fine. So you're against the EU and want Ireland to leave. How, in practical terms, do you think this would be achieved, and where would it leave us in terms of our economy and future prosperity?

Of course you cite no examples of this supposed "authoritarianism".

I'll presume you think the regimes that protect "freedom" are Poland, Hungary and Russia, etc.

Irexiteers have a funny tendency to think that. Goes hand in hand with the sort of Goebbels-esque propaganda that emanates from those states.

Another fallacy. You're assuming that if a country was in such a great state to begin with that there would be mass migration out of it, that the wages would be in that good a state to begin with. Or if you mean migration out or into a country at manageable levels, you're erroneously comparing two different things. I have absolutely no problem with regulated migration.

My point to you was a logical follow on to your new and entirely made up "iron law of wages" that said, and I quote, "Wages go down as the volume of workers increase."

You made the point, I asked you an entirely logical follow on which you have responded to with gibberish.

Again I ask the question: If the number of workers goes down, does the average wage increase?

I ask it because you seem to display a fundamental misunderstanding of economics.

That's because the US had a massive requirement for people to fill basic jobs when that was more prevalent due to a more simplistic industrialised system. There is nowhere near the amount of demand for unskilled labour now as there was back then. To compare the two is massively disingenuous but going by your reply, I'm starting to see a pattern.

You made a point. The greatest ever experiment in large scale in-migration completely disproves your point, and has done at every stage in its history.

Quite well actually. There weren't the jobs to support them and those that did work wouldn't have been able to support them with taxes etc. Again, the mass exodus from Ireland tended to happen back when low skilled labour was highly in demand unlike today. You can't compare the two without some serious mental gymnastics which you appear to be attempting in spades.

When did it work out "quite well"?

The 1840s? The 1950s? The 1980s? After the crash?

Ireland has a long history of out-migration. The times when we had the most were times when we stagnated the most.

After the crash, for instance, there was a chance for the Government to re-employ thousands of people building social housing. We didn't and people in he building industry emigrated in droves. The building industry ground to a halt and we're left with a housing crisis because of that.

And amazingly enough, when we started attracting people into the country in the 1990s and again in this decade, we started growing and prospering.

If you think this is a credible point to make I'm honestly amazed you can type to begin with. Dublin isn't Ireland and Ireland isn't Dublin. For your argument to make even a lick of sense to anyone who isn't a doddering imbecile, you'd have to think the rest of Ireland hasn't progressed past the 1900s.

This is another answer which contains nothing but aggresssive gibberish which doesn't even make an attempt to address my question.

Again, you're asserting things I've never said and you're arguing against strawmen to win victories against. You're comparing someone who "migrates" from Cork to Dublin who would move from, lets say an Islamic country to a Christian country. Do you understand how absolutely insane that is? Are you going to try to compare dust to magma next?

I think you're proving out my assertion that it isn't migration per se that you have a problem with.

It's who migrates, specifically non-whites and most of all Muslims.

To be fair, it was pretty obvious and I don't expect any credit for working that out.

It's neither good nor bad because you have people from the same culture moving to different areas within the same culture. There will be regional differences of course but again, no where close to the differences you'd have from someone who moves an entirely different country to another.

How old are you? I haven't seen incompetent arguing of this level since I was in primary school.

Have you read your own posts?

So, I've given you examples there of large scale migration. You say they're "neither good nor bad".

But large scale migration is what you came on to complain about. Now you're not complaining about it, merely because the identity of the people who are migrating are acceptable to you on "cultural grounds".

As I said, it isn't migration you have the problem with, it's race and religion.

Considering the amount of terrorism going on from both sides in the North of Ireland, yes.

For somebody who claims to have Ireland's interests at heart, claiming that Irish citizens should have had their travel and migration rights taken away from them is a really funny way of demonstrating such.

If they failed a background check or had a history of violence, then yes, then Britain should have denied them access. Would that have stopped terror attacks in the UK? No but it would limited some of them.

Plenty of Irish people were said to have had "a history of violence" but didn't. The Birmingham Six, the Guildford Four, the Maguire Seven, for instance.

What if they were from the North, as most of the people involved in violence were?

You've already stated that you think the Common Travel Area should have been abolished. Yet you say Irish people should have been allowed move to Britain.

This raises an interesting follow up question. Do you favour a complete ban on immigration from certain countries, say, for instance, Iraq, Syria, Somalia or Lybia, a la Trump?

Considering the volume of sexual assaults, crimes in countries like Sweden, Germany and France, it's not paranoia, it's simply looking at the observable results and saying "I don't want that."

Or perhaps, like all the other anti-immigration extremists, you've decided to spin your own easily disprovable fear and hate-mongering narrative to justify obvious racism.

Let's be clear here - the sort of stuff you've come ou with in the above passage is 1930s stuff. There is no difference. This is what all racists and bigots do. Spin bigus narratives so as to peddle and incite hatred.

It's so predictable.

All you've been doing is twisting my words, putting words in my mouth and trying to brow beat me by calling me a racist.

Tell me, do you at all feel even the smallest amount of guilt for watering down such a serious accusation? Just the littlest bit of guilt?

Actual racists tend to not care about being called racist for some reason and the likes of you calling everyone who doesn't kowtow to your banner for legitimate reasons only gives them ammunition to fob off accusations of racism as hyperbole to get their foot in the door.

It's because of people like you trying to shut down discussions about legitimate concerns with cries of racism, homophobia, islamophobia etc at the drop of a hat against people who aren't any of those things that far-right wing political parties on the rise across Europe because the "woke progressive" lefty governments have abandoned the common man and woman on the street who have to suffer the lack of jobs, housing and food that the government seems only too happy to give foreigners at the demands of our European overlords.

Before you respond, I want to make one thing abundantly clear, if you reply to me with more strawmen or arguments against things I have not said, I'll not bother to reply as there's no point.

I think you've thoroughly proved me correct.

In one way I would generalise about racists, but in another way I wouldn't - some of them glory in it and don't care whether they're called out on it, a lot more are deluded about what they are and do care if they're called out on it. In a twisted way I have slightly more respect for the former, at least they're sort of honest, like.

Thanks for the cliche bingo at the end. I sort of zoned out there.

You've well and truly earned a "House" for your collection of strawmen.

RobertKK · 07-12-2018 1:48am

oscarBravo wrote: »

It explicitly removes any obligation to do so, yes.

Do you want the government to ask the public's permission before it makes any decisions, or just decisions that you personally feel strongly about?

I am not asking them to ask the public, we have the Dail, was this discussed in our national parliament?
If not, then they are using the ignorant is bliss approach towards the public.

FreudianSlippers · 07-12-2018 10:33am

RobertKK wrote: »

I am not asking them to ask the public, we have the Dail, was this discussed in our national parliament?
If not, then they are using the ignorant is bliss approach towards the public.

All of this relies on the flimsy and likely flawed assumption that this has not or will not be discussed in the Oireachtas.

Can you please provide a shred of evidence that this will be signed without Oireachtas approval or show us where you derive the assumption that the Government can sign UN Resolutions (or alike) unilaterally?

I think you'll find, with a modicum of research, that signing these UN documents can be done at a Cabinet level following a joint Oireachtas committee (i.e. public) decision and ratification (making it law) requires a full Oireachtas vote, as with all legislation.

RandomName2 · 07-12-2018 2:59pm

hill16bhoy wrote: »

This article systematically demolishes the Sweden rape myth propaganda narrative being pushed by the extreme right. It's particularly well sourced.

I'd advise you to read it.

As I said, I find it slimy to ignore sexual molestation and assault in order to demonstrate that rape levels have been fairly level, despite sexual crime having a distinct rise in recent years. That is to say, that, to the letter, the assertion that Sweden is the rape capital of Europe is not proven, but one can't help but feel that the motives for clinging to that specific interpretation are themselves suspect.

Furthermore, although convictions for rape have not increased in the last number of years, as the source that I posted from the bbc said, over 80% of reported stranger rape was purportedly perpetrated by individuals coming from outside the EU. Brushing that under the carpet for political reasons is hard to defend.

hill16bhoy · 07-12-2018 3:12pm

RandomName2 wrote: »

As I said, I find it slimy to ignore sexual molestation and assault in order to demonstrate that rape levels have been fairly level, despite sexual crime having a distinct rise in recent years. That is to say, that, to the letter, the assertion that Sweden is the rape capital of Europe is not proven, but one can't help but feel that the motives for clinging to that specific interpretation are themselves suspect.

Furthermore, although convictions for rape have not increased in the last number of years, as the source that I posted from the bbc said, over 80% of reported stranger rape was purportedly perpetrated by individuals coming from outside the EU. Brushing that under the carpet for political reasons is hard to defend.

You clearly haven't read the article I posted.

Feel free to post whatever Trump-style alternative reality narrative you want, but don't expect it to be taken in any way seriously.

I think it's pretty clear that your use of the word "slimy" is projection and gaslighting, as it usually is with those who buy into the bogus anti-immigrant narrative.

Anti-immigration blowhards tend to be the most flagrant misogynists around.

**** sticks to other ****.

RandomName2 · 07-12-2018 3:25pm

hill16bhoy wrote: »

You clearly haven't read the article I posted.

Feel free to post whatever Trump-style alternative reality narrative you want, but don't expect it to be taken in any way seriously.

I think it's pretty clear that your use of the word "slimy" is projection and gaslighting, as it usually is with those who buy into the bogus anti-immigrant narrative.

Anti-immigration blowhards tend to be the most flagrant misogynists around.

**** sticks to other ****.

Percentage stating they were victims of sexual crime 2006–2017, BRÅ NTU

Or to quote your source

First of all, the graph does not just represent rape, but a wide category called “sexual crimes.”

****, indeed, sticks to ****.

4068ac1elhodqr · 07-12-2018 3:31pm

Ahh Sweden, the land of the world's 1st 'women only' festival (to provide the female population with a much needed 'safe zone').
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/01/world/europe/sweden-statement-festival-women.html

demfad · 07-12-2018 3:42pm

RandomName2 wrote: »

As I said, I find it slimy to ignore sexual molestation and assault in order to demonstrate that rape levels have been fairly level, despite sexual crime having a distinct rise in recent years. That is to say, that, to the letter, the assertion that Sweden is the rape capital of Europe is not proven, but one can't help but feel that the motives for clinging to that specific interpretation are themselves suspect.

Sexual molestation and rape are wrong whether perpetrated by Swedes or those from outside Sweden. The definition of rape is fairly consistent worldwide. You believe this definition was invented to try and hide Swedish rape figures?

If you are accusing groups of people of heinous crimes and explaining it because of their ethnicity then you had better be convincing. The reason is because if they are not convincing it means that you yourself are not convinced and your assertions are based on something else. If your assertions are not based on reason they are based on bias, or racism in this case.

Stating that the definition of rape is somehow there to distort Swedish rape figures is bull. Do better or people will draw their own conclusions about you.

hill16bhoy · 07-12-2018 3:48pm

RandomName2 wrote: »

Percentage stating they were victims of sexual crime 2006–2017, BRÅ NTU

Or to quote your source

****, indeed, sticks to ****.

It really is amazing how you continue to ignore the fact that Sweden considerably broadened its definition of sexual crime in both 2005 and 2013.

Then, again, when you're desperately trying to spin a flagrantly racist narrative, I suppose it isn't at all suprising.

RandomName2 · 07-12-2018 3:51pm

demfad wrote: »

Sexual molestation and rape are wrong whether perpetrated by Swedes or those from outside Sweden. The definition of rape is fairly consistent worldwide. You believe this definition was invented to try and hide Swedish rape figures?

If you are accusing groups of people of heinous crimes and explaining it because of their ethnicity then you had better be convincing. The reason is because if they are not convincing it means that you yourself are not convinced and your assertions are based on something else. If your assertions are not based on reason they are based on bias, or racism in this case.

Stating that the definition of rape is somehow there to distort Swedish rape figures is bull. Do better or people will draw their own conclusions about you.

It is pretty simple.

There is a large increase in sexual crime in Sweden. This was used by right-wing pundits to criticize immigration policies in Sweden. The response to this is

'If you ignore sexual crimes except rape convictions then there has been no rise in crime rates'

As slimy a position as you can get, and only used to undermine the right-wing pundits.

I'm not saying that right-wing pundits are averse from using victims to suit their own agenda, but that does not make the response any less gross.

RobertKK · 07-12-2018 3:53pm

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

All of this relies on the flimsy and likely flawed assumption that this has not or will not be discussed in the Oireachtas.

Can you please provide a shred of evidence that this will be signed without Oireachtas approval or show us where you derive the assumption that the Government can sign UN Resolutions (or alike) unilaterally?

I think you'll find, with a modicum of research, that signing these UN documents can be done at a Cabinet level following a joint Oireachtas committee (i.e. public) decision and ratification (making it law) requires a full Oireachtas vote, as with all legislation.

It will be signed next week in Marrakesh. I have asked if it was discussed in the Dail - which includes committees, and if not then that is an issue.
It may be a very good document for Ireland to sign, but with a lack of debate, it is hard to know. I read that it is non binding, yet there could in the future be legal consequences if some court made a ruling based on it.
The lack of debate is my biggest issue on it.

RandomName2 · 07-12-2018 4:02pm

hill16bhoy wrote: »

It really is amazing how you continue to ignore the fact that Sweden considerably broadened its definition of sexual crime in both 2005 and 2013.

Did it? Because I read your source and what it said was

Sweden broadened its definition of rape

And yet the same source says that there hasn't been any increase in the number of rape convictions. This is very true. Indeed, rape is a small fraction of sex crimes in Sweden. Although reported rapes have gone up, and the majority of reported rapes by a stranger have been by non-nationals, you can, if you like, ignore both those things because the definition of rape has been widened.

However, sex crimes as a whole (excluding rape convictions) have been increasingly significantly in the last number of years. The only statistic that I could find says that the majority of perpetrators for these crimes have been non-nationals.

hill16bhoy wrote: »

Then, again, when you're desperately trying to spin a flagrantly racist narrative, I suppose it isn't at all suprising.

Okay, if you're going down that route I'm guessing you're running out of steam.

demfad · 07-12-2018 4:38pm

RandomName2 wrote: »

It is pretty simple.

There is a large increase in sexual crime in Sweden. This was used by right-wing pundits to criticize immigration policies in Sweden. The response to this is

'If you ignore sexual crimes except rape convictions then there has been no rise in crime rates'

As slimy a position as you can get, and only used to undermine the right-wing pundits.

I'm not saying that right-wing pundits are averse from using victims to suit their own agenda, but that does not make the response any less gross.

Is Right wing pundits racially slurring immigrants based on unclear 'Statistics' and disinformation not the ultimate in slimyiness ? Your opinion, please.

RandomName2 wrote: »

Did it? Because I read your source and what it said was

And yet the same source says that there hasn't been any increase in the number of rape convictions. This is very true. Indeed, rape is a small fraction of sex crimes in Sweden. Although reported rapes have gone up, and the majority of reported rapes by a stranger have been by non-nationals, you can, if you like, ignore both those things because the definition of rape has been widened.

However, sex crimes as a whole (excluding rape convictions) have been increasingly significantly in the last number of years. The only statistic that I could find says that the majority of perpetrators for these crimes have been non-nationals.

"The only statistic that you can find"???

You are viciously attacking an entire group of prople. Is your statistic reliable? How do you know?

If it is not reliable you are using abuse based on race on a group with no substantiation. Please explain.

RandomName2 · 07-12-2018 5:11pm

demfad wrote: »

Is Right wing pundits racially slurring immigrants based on unclear 'Statistics' and disinformation not the ultimate in slimyiness ? Your opinion, please.

Consecutive rhetorical questions.

demfad wrote: »

"The only statistic that you can find"???

You are viciously attacking an entire group of prople. Is your statistic reliable? How do you know?

Which prople? What vicious attack?

I said that that the statistics in relation to crime and immigration are quite complicated. However, despite the fact that there is no single, all encompassing experience across Europe, Germany and Sweden have both experienced an increase in crime that has a connection to immigration.

hill16bhoy stated that this was a lie, and I produced quite a deal of information to show that it clearly is the case in Germany. There is frankly less information about Sweden, in general. hill16bhoy immediately backed down in relation to Germany, but instead doubled down on his initial assertion by stating there has not been an increase in rape convictions in Sweden.

Quite a narrow examination of the subject, I might say. I find this changing of goalposts to be disingenuous.

demfad wrote: »

If it is not reliable you are using abuse based on race on a group with no substantiation. Please explain.

Please explain what? Insofar that there is substantiation the point stands. It is not my fault that there is not more evidence available. My assertion has not been contradicted by any evidence provided.

If your position is that we should not speculate on the effects of immigration until there is a very large body of evidence in relation to it, that would be a reasonable position. I suspect that you would also be of the opinion that little research should be conducted into the entire topic though, because to do so could produce unwanted effects. Indeed, this sentiment is probably the reason why so little information is available in the first place!

demfad · 07-12-2018 6:03pm

RandomName2 wrote: »

I said that that the statistics in relation to crime and immigration are quite complicated. However, despite the fact that there is no single, all encompassing experience across Europe, Germany and Sweden have both experienced an increase in crime that has a connection to immigration.

You haven't established in any way that there is a causation with immigration. Your implying that there is without evidence is despicable.

My assertion has not been contradicted by any evidence provided.

So you can make up any disgusting assertion about people based on where they are from or their skin color and it stands as fact until someone proves otherwise to your liking? Dont think it works like that. Please back your assertions with evidence.

I suspect that you would also be of the opinion that little research should be conducted into the entire topic though, because to do so could produce unwanted effects.

There are plenty of scholarly studies looking into migration and its affects. Again your pushing the disinformation that there is not is not backed by any evidence bar your conspiracy theory that people like me fear the results. Disingenuous nonsense.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 07-12-2018 6:25pm

hill16bhoy wrote: »

It really is amazing how you continue to ignore the fact that Sweden considerably broadened its definition of sexual crime in both 2005 and 2013.

Then, again, when you're desperately trying to spin a flagrantly racist narrative, I suppose it isn't at all suprising.

The graph I am looking at shows an no increase in 2005, a bump in 2013 followed by a fall the next year and then 3 consecutive yearly increases.

RandomName2 · 07-12-2018 6:42pm

demfad wrote: »

despicable. disgusting Disingenuous nonsense.

Ah your pathos is ringing hollow. All high horse and no rider.

I'm not sure what your obsession with skin color is by the way.

So okay, ignoring your crude attempts at sentiment, the salient bit of your post (at least, ostensibly!) is asking for evidence that immigration has had a connection with rising crime in Sweden.

In an interview between the New York Times and Henrik Emilsson, an international immigration researcher at Malmö University, he said

Not the recent ones. There is a huge debate in Sweden about immigration and crime. And we know from earlier statistics that the foreign-born commit three times as many crimes on average as native-borns. But these riots and crimes in the suburbs, they are related mostly to drugs and gangs. Those people are born and raised in Sweden. It has nothing to do with the recent immigration. It’s the children of migrants and maybe people that came when they were young.

There has been this issue of sexual harassment. And there is some evidence that the new refugees are somewhat involved in this. But there are no official statistics on it.

New York Times

I suppose you'll just have to take that researcher's word for it as he doesn't provide blow by blow statistics in that interview.

Public broadcaster SVT produced a documentary that has stated that 58% of men convicted in Sweden of rape and attempted rape over the past five years were born abroad, and that in cases where the victim did not know the attacker, the proportion of foreign-born offenders was more than 80%.
bbc

Again the source of these statistics are not published (at least in English), but I've seen no journalist dispute these figures.

Gun violence is on the rise, with daylight shootings and without regard for bystanders. In the past nine years, reported and attempted murders involving guns have almost doubled.
..

Yet it’s still hard for Swedish authorities to be frank about what’s going on. It’s widely known that gang members are mainly first- and second-generation immigrants, and problems are rampant in what police euphemistically refer to as ‘vulnerable areas’. Thus the gang wars serve as a constant reminder of Sweden’s failed migration and integration policies. This is a problem for the government (and even the opposition) in a country that prides itself on being a ‘humanitarian superpower’. And yet politicians, in government and opposition, seem particularly concerned that violence in immigrant suburbs is a PR problem, a threat to the image of Sweden, and that the remedy is spin.

The Spectator

Is the Spectator okay to post? I was more inclined to use the Guardian's article on the car burnings, but that could be written off as an isolated incident. Again the Spectator doesn't produce statistics.

Crime statistics show that violent offences have remained at broadly the same level for the past decade but that certain offences — particularly shootings — have increased in Sweden’s three largest cities, Stockholm, Gothenburg and Malmo.

All three cities are home to significant numbers of immigrants — Sweden took in more immigrants in 2015 than almost any other European country relative to the size of population — with local police saying dozens have joined local gangs who deal drugs and have become increasingly brazen in attacking each other.

FT

There's a Russia Today source that I won't post because I could imagine your reaction.

There is a clear rise in gang related violence in recent years. This in itself isn't conclusive, but according to one Swedish source

Of 100 people linked to murder and assassination of firearms, 90 have at least one foreign-born parent, shows DN's review.

DN (translated)

Or as politico writes

Since crime is intimately linked to the country’s failure to integrate its immigrants, the rise in violence is a sensitive subject. When the Swedish government and opposition refer to the country as a “humanitarian superpower” because it opened its doors to more immigrants per capita during the migrant crisis than any other EU country, they mean it. This has resulted in some impressive contortions.

Politico

However, as the interviewee in the first source mentioned, that there is a distinction between recent migrants, and second generation. Numerous sources indicate that second generation migrants are less likely to find good, stable employment, so it wouldn't take a genius to work out that this would be a significant factor in the rise of gang related violence.

Podge_irl · 07-12-2018 6:49pm

RobertKK wrote: »

I read that it is non binding, yet there could in the future be legal consequences if some court made a ruling based on it.

What court? It would not be enshrined in Irish or European law.

UN Migration Pact Ireland's Position?

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