New England Patriots Thread Mod Warning Post #253

munstermagic11 wrote: »

I don't think you can use fans forums and then knock fan voting.

PFF has value, I don't want to knock it too much. But in the home game against Miami, they were giving the Mimi D high scoring, despite us walking through them. It cut back to Rob Ryan who was literally laughing at their analysis.

I'm not saying he has been terrible, but I don't see the Pro-Bowl level play. He's had good games, but a number of bad games. And he's been beaten by average WRs, including Sunday. It might be fair to say he's been one our better players on defense; but he's paid to be our best and given the quality of our D, he should be one of the best. Maybe he could make the Pro-Bowl, but Fuller and Howard seem to be of a higher calibre than Gilmore (granted that I see Gilmore weekly and less of the other two).

There's a big difference between voting for the pro-bowl and contributing to forums. One requires the click of a mouse, the other requires constructing an opinion and backing it up. Just because they both require an internet connection doesn't make them in any way similar. It's actually very easy to knock one and not the other.

From what I recall he didn't exactly have a bad game the weekend, he was beaten once on a deep comeback route that was perfectly thrown. Very hard to defend against as you're primary concern is the deep ball when you're 30 yards down the field. He also got beaten on a deep slant for a TD. If you look back on that play he was in excellent coverage. It was just an excellent throw and catch. Had the ball been thrown even slightly off he was in a great position to intercept.
In this era there's no such thing as a lock down corner anyway. If you call a corner poor because they get beaten 1/2 times a game then every corner in the league is poor.

Also, what other games has he been poor in? Tennessee is the only one that comes to mind. Even in the debacle against the Jags I'm fairly sure he had an excellent game.

TBH I don't want to be getting too drawn into this because you're the first person I've come across who's putting forward an argument that Gilmore is having a bad year. He has easily been our best defensive player this season. To suggest he's having anything other than a great season so far is just wrong.

It's hard to get stats for DBs but here's a few:
He's second in passes defended across the league, only Fuller has more.
He's also first among DBs for forced incompletions.
He has forced an incompletion on 27.9% of his targets so far this season – the highest rate of any corner in the league.
Targeting him has netted opposing quarterbacks a 70.9 passer rating and 44.3 completion percentage (before Miami game).

I'd be more than happy to see any stats that show the contrary, or even any expert opinion.

Our DL is the problem, we are not putting any pressure on the opposing QB. We have the second lowest sack total in the league. We have very few pressures compared to most also.

Big Pussy Bonpensiero wrote:

Firstly, I just backed up my argument. You still haven't, even when asked for specific examples and provided with same for the opposing argument. Fair enough on the second point, but even still, Gilmore is having a great season in most people's opinion, and statistically. To say he isn't even having a good year is just plain wrong.

You are wasting your time my friend. He said something and won't back down even though he is wrong.

munstermagic11 wrote: »

I mean, you can state stuff that I didn't say, and then ignore stuff as well. He didn't play well on Sunday, that is a specific example. He wasn't getting beat by a high class WR that has Pro-Bowl contention.


I can be plain wrong in your opinion, and that's fine with me (and I'm sure it's the same with you). I've watched all the games. And as I said, he's has some good games, but a number of bad games as well; which I don't think puts him in the frame for Pro-Bowl. I think Flowers has had a good year, but not Pro-Bowl caliber (even though I saw a recent article that PFF had him extremely high on their chart).

Maybe we are just arguing semantics. You think he's been good enough to warrant Pro-Bowl, I don't. Maybe I'm being too critical of his play, and I can accept that maybe the money (and the expectations of being our No1 CB) is playing a factor. He hasn't had good safety help either. And if he doesn't get Pro-Bowl, I don't think that validates my point, as I agree that fan voting can skew it.

Fair enough, we'll agree to disagree. And completely agree about the pro-bowl, his inclusion or lack thereof is irrelevant.

Well we can still possibly get it. If we beat the Steelers we have a chance. Chiefs have a tough matchup at the Seahawks to come and Chargers have to go to Denver where they don't do well. I'm not in any way confident that it will happen, like as poor as the Steelers have been recently I still don't like our chances in Pittsburgh.

me89 wrote: »

The defence would break your break

Haha Int

Tbh the O has been worse today than the D so far. We still haven't put one decent drive together yet. And the dropped passes....
At least the D has held them to 14.

Well that was awful again from the offense. We really do suck at the minute

Some bad drops and 14 penalties for 106 yards, very sloppy.

I'd still fancy us at home against anyone but it's hard to see us winning on the road in the playoffs.

bruschi wrote: »

Crap game. The flag happy refs (when they felt like throwing a flag) made crap of it. Granted, a lot were pre snap so definitley flagged, but some of them were ridiculous calls that either made a mess of our drive or kept theirs going.

Ultimately though, it was a poor showing. The ints from Harmon barely kept the defence ticking over. Their third string RB ran all over us. Scoring 10 points will win you the square sum of F all. For a potential top seed team, they really dont look like one. The offence really is really not clicking. Genuinely wouldnt surprise me to see Gronk retire this off season. He looks bet.

Its not the first time I've written off the Patriots, but before it was more in haste and frustration and early in the season, this time it is more that I dont see where the improvements can come from and we are in the back straight leading into playoffs.

There doesn't seem to be any fire to them this year. Brady hasn't seemed like his usual, Terminator self. I'd agree on Gronk, seems to be devoid of energy and personality. Saddening to see.

munstermagic11 wrote: »

[*]Gronk may very well retire in the off season. He's just a regular TE at this stage. He's 29, but when you go through his injury record, he's closer to 39. He doesn't owe the Pats anything, and maybe should consider his long term health.

I agree with everything bar Gronk, he's still elite but is double teamed on every play. Even with that some of his grabs were sensational last night. He had one towards the end last night with two defenders on top of him. I think you're right he may retire, but we'll never get a TE to occupy 2 defenders every play (even at 29)

eagle eye wrote: »

Brady, Gronk, Edelman, Michel, Gordon and White are not the problem. The offensive line is the problem, it appears the only thing they can do consistently is given up penalties.

True, but at the same time Brady in previous years was able to plaster over a lot of issues.
This year he's afraid of hits; he's throwing off the back foot more, he's running away from pressure in the pocket, he's forcing throws.
It used to be that he would stand tall under the pressure and make the play, take the hit.
In the past teams had to try and get to Brady with a 4 man rush, blitzing him was suicide.
This year blitzes have him spooked, even when the O Line does make a block he's still rushing his plays.

Take that final play in the Steelers game for example, TJ Watt came around the corner and fell over. He was no where near Brady, but Brady decided to throw the ball while turning his back to Watt and went to the ground to protect himself from a hit that never came.
Not saying he would have completed had he stayed on his feet, but younger Brady would never have been thinking about protecting himself until after he got his throw off.

2 Patriots on the Pro-Bowl, Brady and Gilmore.

I think Brady is lucky to get on it tbh, I thought Luck and the 2 others deserved it. That being said it's not a major injustice.

Gilmore (imo of course) thoroughly deserved it. Himself and Jackson have come in for a lot of praise after the Steelers game, effectively shutting down Brown and Schuster. Only disappointing thing for Gilmore is that he wasn't named a starter.
I really think Gilmore should be 1st team All-Pro, but it's a toss-up between him, Fuller & Jones imo. He should at least make 2nd team after the season he's had. The only Patriot in with a shout which is very disappointing.