Is there anyway out ?

Walter H Price · 16-01-2017 1:00pm #1

A few months ago a friend of mine found out his uncle (whom hes very close too) had been abused by a priest as a child , now my mate would never have been religious by any stretch anyway , but he decided after his uncle told the family about what happened to him that he wanted to effectively officially leave the RCC.

This is something i had thought about doing myself a few times as well but was never actually engaged enough to go about looking into doing it. Long story short my mate was over for dinner recently and i just asked him more in passing and out of interest, if he had he actually managed to officially leave the church he said he had't and that he wasn't sure you actually could he had done a bit of research online and that and it looked like it was an option up until a few years back but couldn't be done now , Is this true ?

Just wondering if anyone here knows if there is anyway you can go about annulling (in effect) your baptism or conformation and officially leaving the RCC or is it a bit of a once your in your type cult. Just wondering really , Has anyone on here tried to do this and run into similar problems or has anyone actualy managed to do it ?

Cabaal · 16-01-2017 1:12pm

From the Catholic Church's viewpoint, they closed the loop hole that used to be promoted by countmeout.ie

So since then as far as the church is concerned, once a catholic, always a catholic. Its like hotel California

Nearest you'll get is this http://www.notme.ie/2014/10/170/

Walter H Price · 16-01-2017 1:19pm

Cabaal wrote: »

From the Catholic Church's viewpoint, they closed the loop hole that used to be promoted by countmeout.ie

So since then as far as the church is concerned, once a catholic, always a catholic. Its like hotel California

Closest you'll get is this http://www.notme.ie/2014/10/170/

That's really surprising ,

you know i thought when i asked him the other night he was making it up a bit that it was so hard to leave. I thought maybe he was trying to save a bit of face because he was so fire and brimstone about the whole leaving the church thing over the summer, he made Richard Dawkins sound like an alter boy , totally understandable of course given what his uncle went through and that.

I had just assumed it would be a fairly strait forward thing to do , write to a bishop or fill out some form or other

robindch · 16-01-2017 1:30pm

Walter H Price wrote: »

he wanted to effectively officially leave the RCC

Short answer is he won't be able to, at least, not according to the RCC anyway.

The longer answer is that the church is playing a set of language games with the topic and you've to figure out to whom you want to devolve the power to make the determination that he's managed to "leave the RCC" (whatever that means). I've tried to find the list of attributes + processes by which the RCC claims that an individual becomes "a catholic" in good standing, but haven't been able to find a definitive list. Baptism is one of the processes, and it's considered the main one, but things like confirmation, communion and the acceptance of various doctrines are listed in various places as requirements too.

A few years ago, there was a website (here) which used what was arguably a loophole in Canon Law which allowed people to register that they did not consider themselves "catholic" and the church would respond acknowledging this. However, the loophole was closed and the best that can be done these days is that you can request the RCC to annotate the relevant baptismal register to indicate that you no longer consider yourself a catholic - and they may or may not acknowledge that they've done this. Be aware that there are rumours that such an annotation, or belief that an individual did not consider themselves a catholic, can result in the RCC refusing access to a graveyard for the grieving family of a dead atheist. See this news item.

However, the RCC won't acknowledge that you are no longer a catholic, since they assert that once one has become a catholic (via undergoing the debatable list of processes), or once one has at one point believed that one is a catholic (via processes, plus beliefs), then one has acquired a characteristic which one cannot then be removed. The RCC justifies this by means of the related, but irrelevant, point that the baptismal register is a register of an event and you can't delete an event from the past. They do not discuss or admit the possibility of a process which removes whatever characteristic they claim is added by baptism (etc). Sorry this is so wordy, but that's what the RCC does.

A simpler, and perhaps more cathartic process, might be for your friend's uncle to write a short letter to the local PP, saying that he no longer wants to be considered a member of the RCC, perhaps outlining the reasons why, and simply sitting back and seeing what happens - some priests might do the decent thing and acknowledge the non-membership (by mistake) or at least, acknowledge the letter and the uncle's wishes. Some might send back an unhelpful response all the same though and he'll need to be prepared for that.

See Cabaal's comment on Hotel California.

TheChizler · 16-01-2017 1:41pm

Personally I'm happy with just not supporting them in any way. They can believe me to be a Catholic, but I don't let it have any impact on my life.

magicbastarder · 16-01-2017 2:10pm

yeah, i'm definitely in the 'i'm not validating their rules by applying for something based on them' camp.

filbert the fox · 16-01-2017 2:14pm

Just do the modern thing - txt them and tell them it's all off!

ScumLord · 16-01-2017 2:54pm

There doesn't seem to be anything stopping Catholics changing religion though.

He could switch to Islam, you can then leave that religion. Plus create some very frightening statistics for the Catholic church.

Walter H Price · 16-01-2017 3:00pm

robindch wrote: »

Short answer is he won't be able to, at least, not according to the RCC anyway.

The longer answer is that the church is playing a set of language games with the topic and you've to figure out to whom you want to devolve the power to make the determination that he's managed to "leave the RCC" (whatever that means). I've tried to find the list of attributes + processes by which the RCC claims that an individual becomes "a catholic" in good standing, but haven't been able to find a definitive list. Baptism is one of the processes, and it's considered the main one, but things like confirmation, communion and the acceptance of various doctrines are listed in various places as requirements too.

A few years ago, there was a website (here) which used what was arguably a loophole in Canon Law which allowed people to register that they did not consider themselves "catholic" and the church would respond acknowledging this. However, the loophole was closed and the best that can be done these days is that you can request the RCC to annotate the relevant baptismal register to indicate that you no longer consider yourself a catholic - and they may or may not acknowledge that they've done this. Be aware that there are rumours that such an annotation, or belief that an individual did not consider themselves a catholic, can result in the RCC refusing access to a graveyard for the grieving family of a dead atheist. See this news item.

However, the RCC won't acknowledge that you are no longer a catholic, since they assert that once one has become a catholic (via undergoing the debatable list of processes), or once one has at one point believed that one is a catholic (via processes, plus beliefs), then one has acquired a characteristic which one cannot then be removed. The RCC justifies this by means of the related, but irrelevant, point that the baptismal register is a register of an event and you can't delete an event from the past. They do not discuss or admit the possibility of a process which removes whatever characteristic they claim is added by baptism (etc). Sorry this is so wordy, but that's what the RCC does.

A simpler, and perhaps more cathartic process, might be for your friend's uncle to write a short letter to the local PP, saying that he no longer wants to be considered a member of the RCC, perhaps outlining the reasons why, and simply sitting back and seeing what happens - some priests might do the decent thing and acknowledge the non-membership (by mistake) or at least, acknowledge the letter and the uncle's wishes. Some might send back an unhelpful response all the same though and he'll need to be prepared for that.

See Cabaal's comment on Hotel California.

That's mad so. so in affect theres no way out

looksee · 16-01-2017 3:01pm

Leaving Islam can have some even dodgier results, I think?

I like the point about not validating the rules by asking about them.

looksee · 16-01-2017 3:10pm

The RCC justifies this by means of the related, but irrelevant, point that the baptismal register is a register of an event and you can't delete an event from the past.

But yet a marriage is registered as an event, and it is possible to have it annulled. Surely if you argue that the baptism was not legitimate as you had not given permission for it and were not mature enough at 12 to confirm this life decision, it should automatically be invalid? After all an organisation that can offer masses for the (unknown) intentions of a list of names that do not even have to be seen to be included, it can cope with undoing something it did without permission.

Jayop · 16-01-2017 3:23pm

What do you need to do to get excommunicated?

magicbastarder · 16-01-2017 3:27pm

Walter H Price wrote: »

That's mad so. so in affect theres no way out

it's not like you're trapped, a believing catholic with no way to stop believing.

Stealthfins · 16-01-2017 3:33pm

Get dried out....

Second Toughest in_the Freshers · 16-01-2017 4:46pm

robindch wrote: »

...
can result in the RCC refusing access to a graveyard for the grieving family of a dead atheist. See this news item.
.

Her remains could not be buried in Donegal. She was buried in a Derry city cemetery instead.

The city council's cemeteries department, when asked if they could bury an atheist, said they had different areas in the municipal graveyard for Catholics, Protestants and even Muslims.

Asked whether they were starting an atheist section for Mrs Greenslade the reply was: "No, we're putting her in with the Protestants."

well. I guess that answers that question...

Walter H Price · 16-01-2017 4:54pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

it's not like you're trapped, a believing catholic with no way to stop believing.

its not really a case of belief obviously faith isn't compulsory and i haven't ever had a faith only made my communion and confo to keep the nana's happy and because i wanted the cash , i suppose that's why i never got exercised enough to go looking into formally leaving the church myself.

I do understand why my mate wants to be fully removed as a member of the Church from their perspective given the crimes committed againt his uncle and the fact that the church covered it up and moved the priest around.

Is excommunication still a thing ? and if so what do you have to do to get excommunicated

TheChizler · 16-01-2017 4:57pm

Even if excommunicated the Church considers you a Catholic. Albeit not a very good one. Surely by playing by their rules you validate them?

....... · 16-01-2017 4:57pm

This post has been deleted.

Walter H Price · 16-01-2017 5:09pm

TheChizler wrote: »

Even if excommunicated the Church considers you a Catholic. Albeit not a very good one. Surely by playing by their rules you validate them?

So even if you do somthing totaly against the rules or whatever and they in effect kick you of the club , they still count you as a member , how does that work :P

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Id be a bit the same never go except weddings or funerals and at that its only for the couple or the family , i don't take the bread or join in, in any of the jesus says stuff ... if it was an option and easy to do i would probably fill out a form or whatever to ecommunicate myself but like i said never looked into it much myself , what caught my attention was i know how determined my mate was to "leave" the church in the summer but he kinda now seems to have accepted there's no actual way of going about doing that having spent a few months trying to find a way.

ScumLord · 16-01-2017 5:22pm

looksee wrote: »

Leaving Islam can have some even dodgier results, I think?

In the more extreme Muslim countries they can kill you for leaving Islam, but in more tolerant countries you just leave Islam. If there's no Sharia law to punish you then nothing can happen.

Hotblack Desiato · 16-01-2017 10:13pm

ScumLord wrote: »

If there's no Sharia law to punish you then nothing can happen.

Apart from what those who take the law into their own hands might do. It's not as if the atheist bloggers getting hacked to death in Bangladesh are being killed legally, but the justice system seems disinclined to do anything much about it, either.

robindch wrote: »

A few years ago, there was a website (here) which used what was arguably a loophole in Canon Law which allowed people to register that they did not consider themselves "catholic" and the church would respond acknowledging this. However, the loophole was closed and the best that can be done these days is that you can request the RCC to annotate the relevant baptismal register to indicate that you no longer consider yourself a catholic - and they may or may not acknowledge that they've done this.

Nitpick - it was countmeout.ie which offered this service - a form letter which you then sent off to the appropriate diocese. I see that countmeout.ie now redirects to notme.ie. Notme.ie was set up by Atheist Ireland after the process CountMeOut used was closed off.

pauldla · 17-01-2017 2:43am

Walter H Price wrote: »

So even if you do somthing totaly against the rules or whatever and they in effect kick you of the club , they still count you as a member , how does that work :P

.....

Except they don't kick you out; you're still a member, but you're not allowed to the Spiritual Snack Bar until you mend your ways (or to put it less flippantly, you are no longer in communion with the Church, and are thus excommunicated).

robindch · 17-01-2017 11:46am

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Nitpick - it was countmeout.ie which offered this service - a form letter which you then sent off to the appropriate diocese. I see that countmeout.ie now redirects to notme.ie. Notme.ie was set up by Atheist Ireland after the process CountMeOut used was closed off.

Yes, that's correct - there's only so much detail one can fit into a reply before one begins to look like one suffers from OCD

BTW, http://www.catholic.ie redirects to http://www.notme.ie after somebody rather famously forgot to renew the catholic.ie domain.

Walter H Price · 17-01-2017 12:59pm

robindch wrote: »

Yes, that's correct - there's only so much detail one can fit into a reply before one begins to look like one suffers from OCD

BTW, http://www.catholic.ie redirects to http://www.notme.ie after somebody rather famously forgot to renew the catholic.ie domain.

so whats the actual difference between not and count me out.

The Catholic.ie thing is brilliant too btw

robindch · 17-01-2017 2:26pm

Walter H Price wrote: »

so whats the actual difference between not and count me out.

Countmeout was set up by some guy, I believe down in the midlands somewhere and it guided people through whatever process the RCC had at the time.

Once the RCC abandoned that process - and I can't help but wonder if countmeout helped hasten its demise - countmeout went into something of a decline and I believe the site was taken over some while later by AI, then rebranded as notme.ie with the guidance it has now on how to follow the "annotation of the birth registry" procedure.

Walter H Price · 17-01-2017 5:15pm

robindch wrote: »

Countmeout was set up by some guy, I believe down in the midlands somewhere and it guided people through whatever process the RCC had at the time.

Once the RCC abandoned that process - and I can't help but wonder if countmeout helped hasten its demise - countmeout went into something of a decline and I believe the site was taken over some while later by AI, then rebranded as notme.ie with the guidance it has now on how to follow the "annotation of the birth registry" procedure.

is that effectivly having your religion removed from your birth cert ? so effectively the church would still consider you a member but the state would not ?

Elemonator · 17-01-2017 5:17pm

What happened to the letter of enunciation?

Walter H Price · 17-01-2017 5:17pm

Elemonator wrote: »

What happened to the letter of enunciation?

What was that

infogiver · 17-01-2017 5:26pm

Walter H Price wrote: »

A few months ago a friend of mine found out his uncle (whom hes very close too) had been abused by a priest as a child , now my mate would never have been religious by any stretch anyway , but he decided after his uncle told the family about what happened to him that he wanted to effectively officially leave the RCC.

This is something i had thought about doing myself a few times as well but was never actually engaged enough to go about looking into doing it. Long story short my mate was over for dinner recently and i just asked him more in passing and out of interest, if he had he actually managed to officially leave the church he said he had't and that he wasn't sure you actually could he had done a bit of research online and that and it looked like it was an option up until a few years back but couldn't be done now , Is this true ?

Just wondering if anyone here knows if there is anyway you can go about annulling (in effect) your baptism or conformation and officially leaving the RCC or is it a bit of a once your in your type cult. Just wondering really , Has anyone on here tried to do this and run into similar problems or has anyone actualy managed to do it ?

I'm sorry that your friend has had such a sad experience.
If he was baptised confirmed married etc within the Rites of RCC then there's no possible way to rewrite history and "pretend" that he wasn't baptised etc etc
There is a written record of his receiving those sacraments and crossing his name of will not mean that it didn't happen any more than crossing my name off the register of births will mean that I wasn't born.
There isn't a list of RCC members anywhere
The Church is the people, not the hierarchy, not the buildings
Probably best to just divorce himself from RCC in his own head or even have some kind of symbolic burning of Certificates at home.

oldrnwisr · 17-01-2017 5:30pm

Walter H Price wrote: »

is that effectivly having your religion removed from your birth cert ? so effectively the church would still consider you a member but the state would not ?

Your religion isn't recorded on your birth certificate. I think you're getting birth cert and baptismal cert mixed up. Your birth certificate is a legal document of the state (Civil Registration Act 2004) which records the following information:

First name(s) and surname(s) of the person as registered
Date of birth (there is a checkbox which should be selected if the applicant is not sure of the exact date and has chosen an approximate date)
Gender
Father's full name (first name(s) and surname(s)
Mother's first name(s) and birth surname(s)

The only passing reference to religion is a field which can be filled in if the child is baptised at a later date under a different name to that recorded on the birth certificate.

By contrast, a baptismal cert is an internal church document which gets used among other things, for weddings and, unfortunately, to act as an obstacle in getting your child into the local national school.

Following the old countmeout process or the manual process detailed at notme.ie will simply result in an annotation being made on the baptismal register which impacts on your baptismal cert. It doesn't however have any effect on your records held by the state. The state collects this information using the census.

Walter H Price · 17-01-2017 5:34pm

infogiver wrote: »

I'm sorry that your friend has had such a sad experience.
If he was baptised confirmed married etc within the Rites of RCC then there's no possible way to rewrite history and "pretend" that he wasn't baptised etc etc
There is a written record of his receiving those sacraments and crossing his name of will not mean that it didn't happen any more than crossing my name off the register of births will mean that I wasn't born.
There isn't a list of RCC members anywhere
The Church is the people, not the hierarchy, not the buildings
Probably best to just divorce himself from RCC in his own head or even have some kind of symbolic burning of Certificates at home.

Hes not married so its really only the other three , but surely it make' sense that you can renounce your faith and the Church records no longer record you as a catholic.

we all said similar to what you suggested to him at the time that he just mentally divorce himself from it but it didn't seem enough for him , and i do get why. i was more asking here because i was skeptical that it could be that hard to have it officially recognized by the church that you have renounced your faith and longer identify as a catholic. Im just surprised and kind of interested as to why it is so difficult, particularly given the fact that the 3 sacraments you mention where you confirm your faith or are entered in to the faith are all done when your a child under 12

Is there anyway out ?

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