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30-12-2014, 00:11   #61
katydid
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Originally Posted by niamhstokes View Post
Ahaaaa ok, i was just wondering about the origin of its design, what people it comes from and do you know if the colours mean anything? some are very colourful and others just dark black?
As far as I know, "hijab" is the generic name for a covering. A headscarf is hijab and a burqa is hijab. I am open to correction


The burqa originated in Afghanistan, but some very strict Muslim women have taken to wearing niqab, which is the black cloak with the eye slit, which is of Middle Eastern origin.

And of course, in some parts of India, hijab is just a scarf draped loosely over the hair.

As I said, I'm open to correction on this...
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30-12-2014, 00:13   #62
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Muslims will admit that there are different interpretations, but insist that since the Qur'an is the direct word of God, it is not open to interpretation. Which is illogical. I just want to get them to admit that they DO interpret...
Who said that it's not open for interpretation? interpretation of the Qur'an is left to the mufasireen (exegetes).

The original Arabic text is not open for change or any alteration, however different scholars of Tafsir may interpret different meanings from a verse based on their knowledge and understanding.

A normal Muslim however is invited by the Qur'an itself to think and reflect about its meaning and if in doubts he can consult a book of Tafsir.

"A Quranic tafsir will often explain intent or provide places and times, not contained in Quranic verses, as well as give restriction of meanings, or explanations for why verses seem contradictory, and where possible the situation and circumstance under which some verses were revealed"

Last edited by Defender OF Faith; 30-12-2014 at 00:22.
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30-12-2014, 00:15   #63
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Originally Posted by niamhstokes View Post
Ahaaaa ok, i was just wondering about the origin of its design, what people it comes from and do you know if the colours mean anything? some are very colourful and others just dark black?
I think the stricter branches frown on bright colours

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Originally Posted by katydid View Post
As far as I know, "hijab" is the generic name for a covering. A headscarf is hijab and a burqa is hijab. I am open to correction


The burqa originated in Afghanistan, but some very strict Muslim women have taken to wearing niqab, which is the black cloak with the eye slit, which is of Middle Eastern origin.

And of course, in some parts of India, hijab is just a scarf draped loosely over the hair.

As I said, I'm open to correction on this...
Hijab is an Arabic term for a head covering.

The burqa according to this BBC explanation is the most restrictive with a covering over the eyes also
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30-12-2014, 00:15   #64
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We should do a Father Ted version of islam where Father Jack pops into the mosque =) hahahaha
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30-12-2014, 01:55   #65
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Have you seen nuns these days? Mormons were the same clothes as everyone else, they just wear weird underwear, Amish women just wear a small headscarf, and Orthodox Jewish women, bizarrely, wear wigs over their own hair. None of them swathe themselves from head to foot in a cloth covering.

Some of those who wear fashionable clothes are indeed brain washed, but most women dress for themselves, not for men or for other women, and certainly not to pander to men's weaknesses.
Why are you so offended by Muslim women wanting to obey their Creator by dressing conservatively? If you believe in women's rights then you should be the first to believe in their right to wear the hijab.

Men are also obliged to be moderate, in their dress sense and in their behavior. There are ordered to "lower their gaze," so your assertion that Muslim women dress moderately to pander to women's weaknesses is unfounded.
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30-12-2014, 01:56   #66
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Originally Posted by katydid View Post
As far as I know, "hijab" is the generic name for a covering. A headscarf is hijab and a burqa is hijab. I am open to correction


The burqa originated in Afghanistan, but some very strict Muslim women have taken to wearing niqab, which is the black cloak with the eye slit, which is of Middle Eastern origin.

And of course, in some parts of India, hijab is just a scarf draped loosely over the hair.

As I said, I'm open to correction on this...
I think that you need to do much more research on the hijab and the rulings in Islam regarding hijab before you comment on it.
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30-12-2014, 02:07   #67
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I think that you need to do much more research on the hijab and the rulings in Islam regarding hijab before you comment on it.
In fairness the poster did say she was open to correction, and she thanked my post clarifying the different types of headdress etc
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30-12-2014, 05:58   #68
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And so around in circles we go.

"Islam oppresses women - I've seen it on the telly"

"No it doesn't, here's many quotes from the Quoran that proves it doesn't"

Seriously people, this is what is wrong in the world today - entrenched views, with no appreciation of context, social, cultural or political factors on either side. One upmanship at its worst.

To those who think Islam oppresses women - have you ever actually spent a length of time in a Muslim country (and no, I am not talking about a stopover in Dubai)? Can you honestly say the oppression, as you see it, happens in every single country, to every single Muslim female? I have serious issues with gross generalisations, and that's all I can see on this matter.

And to those who argue Islam doesn't oppress women - I'm sorry, but you are digging an even bigger hole for yourself by quoting a 1400 year old holy book. This forum is based in Ireland, a modern, Western democracy where religion has fallen out of favour for whatever reasons. I hope you can appreciate why people have such problems relating to such material. Intelligent discourse, with real world examples are what people are looking for.

As to the thread itself, I hope people will take a step back, think about what I have said and consider their viewpoint.
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30-12-2014, 12:55   #69
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Originally Posted by muslimstudent View Post
Why are you so offended by Muslim women wanting to obey their Creator by dressing conservatively? If you believe in women's rights then you should be the first to believe in their right to wear the hijab.

Men are also obliged to be moderate, in their dress sense and in their behavior. There are ordered to "lower their gaze," so your assertion that Muslim women dress moderately to pander to women's weaknesses is unfounded.
Of course they have the RIGHT to wear hijab. I never said they didn't have the right. But I am offended by women allowing men to dictate to them what they THINK God told them to do. Men have told women that God wants them to cover up so that men will be able to control themselves in their presence, and women accept that nonsense, instead of telling men to exercise some self control.

If men are supposed to lower their gaze, and if that was considered enough, then clearly there would be no need for women to cover up in the way they do.

I never said women cover themselves up to pander to WOMEN'S weakness; I said they pander to MEN'S weakness.
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30-12-2014, 12:57   #70
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I think that you need to do much more research on the hijab and the rulings in Islam regarding hijab before you comment on it.
Instead of making sarky remarks you could consider elaborating on what you think I got wrong. I made it clear I wasn't too sure and open to correction.

You need to improve your attitude.
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30-12-2014, 13:00   #71
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And so around in circles we go.

"Islam oppresses women - I've seen it on the telly"

"No it doesn't, here's many quotes from the Quoran that proves it doesn't"

Seriously people, this is what is wrong in the world today - entrenched views, with no appreciation of context, social, cultural or political factors on either side. One upmanship at its worst.

To those who think Islam oppresses women - have you ever actually spent a length of time in a Muslim country (and no, I am not talking about a stopover in Dubai)? Can you honestly say the oppression, as you see it, happens in every single country, to every single Muslim female? I have serious issues with gross generalisations, and that's all I can see on this matter.

And to those who argue Islam doesn't oppress women - I'm sorry, but you are digging an even bigger hole for yourself by quoting a 1400 year old holy book. This forum is based in Ireland, a modern, Western democracy where religion has fallen out of favour for whatever reasons. I hope you can appreciate why people have such problems relating to such material. Intelligent discourse, with real world examples are what people are looking for.

As to the thread itself, I hope people will take a step back, think about what I have said and consider their viewpoint.
Islam is interpreted in many different ways. Some ways oppress women, some don't. But those that defend it here insist that it doesn't oppress women in any way at all ever. That is patent nonsense. Islam, like Christianity or Judaism, can be interpreted in a way that oppresses women, or can be interpreted totally differently. That is something the Muslims here can't bring themselves to admit, since they can't let go the premise that the Word of God can't be changed.
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30-12-2014, 14:26   #72
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Originally Posted by katydid View Post
Of course they have the RIGHT to wear hijab. I never said they didn't have the right. But I am offended by women allowing men to dictate to them what they THINK God told them to do. Men have told women that God wants them to cover up so that men will be able to control themselves in their presence, and women accept that nonsense, instead of telling men to exercise some self control.

If men are supposed to lower their gaze, and if that was considered enough, then clearly there would be no need for women to cover up in the way they do.

I never said women cover themselves up to pander to WOMEN'S weakness; I said they pander to MEN'S weakness.
Muslim women and men alike are equally encouraged to seek knowledge in Islam and it's rulings. Although the imams in mosques are men, nothing prohibits a woman from becoming a scholar. There have been many Muslim women scholars in the past and there still are today.

So, Muslim women scholars and Muslim laypeople alike, agree in the obligation of the hijab for both men and women. Those who dispute the obligation are typically modernists and secularists. Even women who neglect it will tell you that they due it out of neglect and laziness but they are still convinced of the obligation.

Both men and women are instructed to lower the gaze so that they could be modest. Lowering the gaze is just one measure and is not enough for what Islam seeks to achieve in purifying its societies.

I made a typo with the comment re: pander to women's weakness. Apologies.
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30-12-2014, 14:27   #73
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Who said that it's not open for interpretation? interpretation of the Qur'an is left to the mufasireen (exegetes).

The original Arabic text is not open for change or any alteration, however different scholars of Tafsir may interpret different meanings from a verse based on their knowledge and understanding.

A normal Muslim however is invited by the Qur'an itself to think and reflect about its meaning and if in doubts he can consult a book of Tafsir.

"A Quranic tafsir will often explain intent or provide places and times, not contained in Quranic verses, as well as give restriction of meanings, or explanations for why verses seem contradictory, and where possible the situation and circumstance under which some verses were revealed"
So the exegetes interpret it, and the "ordinary Muslim" picks which piece of exegesis he or she likes to suit what they want to believe. Which is fair enough - but let's not pretend that there's not room for interpretation which puts the question of things like dress and the role of women into question...
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30-12-2014, 14:28   #74
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Instead of making sarky remarks you could consider elaborating on what you think I got wrong. I made it clear I wasn't too sure and open to correction.

You need to improve your attitude.
What about your attitude towards Muslims in this thread?

Has that been acceptable?
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30-12-2014, 14:33   #75
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I'm getting the impression followers of muhammad's book think men are like these beasts who if they see an attractive lady lose self control LOL So back in the real world, i feel the majority of guys are totally fine, you will always get freaks though. As is the case in egypt where women were the head covering stuff and stil get harassed. That says it all really. It's not the clothes basically. It's so hilarious we are discussing this in an ireland forum though seeing as basically no one in ireland is muslim and we are all Catholic LOL
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