Boards.ie uses cookies. By continuing to browse this site you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Click here to find out more x
Post Reply  
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
01-06-2020, 23:56   #46
sk8board
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,502
Quote:
Originally Posted by Edgware View Post
58 one beds advertised for Dublin 6 last Friday on Daft. The rental market is in trouble and if a landlord wants a property rented he better start reducing rent.
a small increase in One beds in D 6, at a moment in time when you can’t legitimately even do a showing, and the market has temporarily got a bunch of small Airbnb’s for perhaps the next 12 months.

Yep, the market is in trouble alright.
sk8board is offline  
Advertisement
02-06-2020, 00:09   #47
sk8board
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,502
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuddlesworth View Post
Ha, I knew they would have to drop the stats at some point, this is what they are basing their article on.

https://onestopshop.rtb.ie/research/...on-statistics/

From 2017 up to the end of 2018 they published quarterly statistics and then they just stopped. And to be blunt, these are just totals so it takes seconds to complete. So stopping the publishing would have had to be deliberate and that really pisses me off. It was obvious landlords were leaving in droves and they were obfuscating the information. Who is responsible for that?

Its even worse when you look at the figures.

In 2019 private registrations dropped by 7k, but the overall numbers are being propped up by the housing agencies. And to be blunt, they can't even start stemming the flood from the market. We built what, circa 25k homes last year? Assuming a 50% ownership to rental market, shouldn't rental housing have increased by around 12k during the year?

Why drop the "number of new tenancies registered" stat, is it because the rental market has stagnated to the bare minimum of people moving?

Saying its properties coming out of negative equity might be correct but the reduction of circa 4k in number of landlords compared to 7k tenancies implies that a lot of multi-unit owners are selling up. Those are people who wanted to be landlords.

I’ve been saying this for a few years - I don’t know why they obfuscate the headline number of registered landlords so much in their quarterly and annual reports (which I unfortunately read!).

e.g in 2012 there was 213k registered LLs, but that year they also issued 43,000 letters to unregistered LLs, without saying how many of those subsequently registered.

All past reports are here:
https://onestopshop.rtb.ie/rtb-publications/

I’d love to know how many of those 213k LLs are still in the market.

All we know for sure is there were 213k registered LLs in 2012 and there are 169k at the end of 2019.
It’s reasonable to assume that the 44k fall is actually closer to 70k (1/3) of the original 213k, with 25k new LL entrants post recession (myself included).

Last edited by sk8board; 02-06-2020 at 00:15.
sk8board is offline  
Thanks from:
02-06-2020, 03:44   #48
overkill602
Registered User
 
overkill602's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Posts: 267
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham View Post
that would be an 'interesting' investment strategy
If your LL with a couple of units in an old pre63 building very popular in RPZs let 2 r 3 where the profit is taxed @20% leave 1 r 2 empty because showing profit over 35k is taxed @40%
This tax rate does not apply to reits the higher rate is a disincentive to multi units LL especially where they are mortgage free
overkill602 is offline  
02-06-2020, 08:37   #49
Graham
Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 12,438
be as logical as asking your boss for a pay-cut to save on tax.
Graham is offline  
02-06-2020, 08:50   #50
beauf
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 18,525
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham View Post
be as logical as asking your boss for a pay-cut to save on tax.
People are fond on this forum of saying that a LL profit is mainly if not solely on the capital appreciation and acquisition of property, not the rent. Pointing out that a business needs cashflow to operate falls on deaf ears. But if it was true and the cost of renting exceeded the costs of renting, then it would make sense to leave it empty.

I know a few who never wanted to be LLs and kept properties empty and eventually sold them when they wanted the money back.
beauf is offline  
Advertisement
02-06-2020, 11:05   #51
Ray Palmer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 6,098
Quote:
Originally Posted by beauf View Post
People are fond on this forum of saying that a LL profit is mainly if not solely on the capital appreciation and acquisition of property, not the rent. Pointing out that a business needs cashflow to operate falls on deaf ears. But if it was true and the cost of renting exceeded the costs of renting, then it would make sense to leave it empty.

I know a few who never wanted to be LLs and kept properties empty and eventually sold them when they wanted the money back.
The thing is the expenses exist if you are renting or not so what you are saying doesn't make sense. By not letting you lose more money.

In very exceptional circumstances does it make sense. Where you would have multiple properties and one is rented well below market rates. Then leaving it empty to bump the rent up in two years of it not being let. Still very unlikely.

You would still make more money letting it so what you are saying doesn't hold water.
Ray Palmer is offline  
02-06-2020, 11:49   #52
overkill602
Registered User
 
overkill602's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Posts: 267
when you go above 35K the extra 20% does make a big difference my accountant has many LLs on his books they are keeping below the 35K also the sector has the highest compliance according to rev
This is where the 55% come in it just not worth it even with allowable expenses and when your not allowed for time & admin
overkill602 is offline  
02-06-2020, 12:04   #53
the_syco
Subscriber
 
the_syco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 35,659
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Conductor View Post
I'd love to know what the story is with the circa 30% of Airbnb lets on the Irish market, being available but vacant in July/Aug 2019...........
Something just doesn't make sense.
It sounds like they're not only using AirBnB?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edgware View Post
58 one beds advertised for Dublin 6 last Friday on Daft. The rental market is in trouble and if a landlord wants a property rented he better start reducing rent.
Daft has been weird lately. Sometimes I click on a property, only to be told it no longer exists.
the_syco is offline  
Thanks from:
02-06-2020, 12:10   #54
Lux23
Registered User
 
Lux23's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 6,861
Quote:
Originally Posted by the_syco View Post
It sounds like they're not only using AirBnB?


Daft has been weird lately. Sometimes I click on a property, only to be told it no longer exists.
I have noticed that too, but I think its because they have upped or dropped the price.
Lux23 is offline  
Advertisement
02-06-2020, 12:38   #55
Ray Palmer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 6,098
Quote:
Originally Posted by overkill602 View Post
when you go above 35K the extra 20% does make a big difference my accountant has many LLs on his books they are keeping below the 35K also the sector has the highest compliance according to rev
This is where the 55% come in it just not worth it even with allowable expenses and when your not allowed for time & admin
That doesn't make any sense. Any extra money is more money even if you are taxed more above a limit. You don't suddenly get taxed more on your existing income when it increases.
I don't think you understand tax or accounting
Ray Palmer is offline  
02-06-2020, 15:18   #56
Bass Reeves
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 6,459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Palmer View Post
That doesn't make any sense. Any extra money is more money even if you are taxed more above a limit. You don't suddenly get taxed more on your existing income when it increases.
I don't think you understand tax or accounting
It might seem not to. However if you have multiple units it may well pay to leave a unit empty for 6-12 months. If you are in an RPZ and you take a 20% drop in rent it will take 5+years to recover to original yield not to mind projected yield. As well if LL's with multiple units leave units empty or hold for there prices they prevent churn. This benefits the yield in other units.

While single unit owners may be in a rush to relet the same pressure will not be.on multiple unit owners. As well this may be a time to revamp properties and increase there rental value. If we enter a slowdown building prices(although I cannot see building costs decline by much) it would be an opportunity to carry out upgrades

Last edited by Bass Reeves; 02-06-2020 at 15:40.
Bass Reeves is offline  
Thanks from:
02-06-2020, 16:04   #57
the_syco
Subscriber
 
the_syco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 35,659
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass Reeves View Post
As well this may be a time to revamp properties and increase there rental value. If we enter a slowdown building prices(although I cannot see building costs decline by much) it would be an opportunity to carry out upgrades
Unless the LL adds another room, I doubt a LL would qualify for more rent if they're in an RPZ. Also, the less rentals that there are, the less the LL will need to improve their accommodation.
the_syco is offline  
Thanks from:
02-06-2020, 16:40   #58
Ray Palmer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 6,098
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass Reeves View Post
It might seem not to. However if you have multiple units it may well pay to leave a unit empty for 6-12 months. If you are in an RPZ and you take a 20% drop in rent it will take 5+years to recover to original yield not to mind projected yield. As well if LL's with multiple units leave units empty or hold for there prices they prevent churn. This benefits the yield in other units.

While single unit owners may be in a rush to relet the same pressure will not be.on multiple unit owners. As well this may be a time to revamp properties and increase there rental value. If we enter a slowdown building prices(although I cannot see building costs decline by much) it would be an opportunity to carry out upgrades
Show your maths to explain it because I think you are overestimating an extreme scenario. I also believe it is 2 years of not being let before you can rent it out again without RPZ impact.

So rent is €1000 but could get €1200.

So you don't want €24k income because you can get an extra €200 a month later. So to recover that money will take 10 years. Even if a year it is 5 years to recover the amount. They won't be up any amount but if the keep renting they can up the rent 4% each year. Which means more money in the end..

You are talking to a person with multiple units who did the maths on their property and it makes no sense. You would have to be renting a place below 50% of the market rate. Easier just to upgrade the property and put it back on the market. It is easily done and costs a lot less than 24k
Ray Palmer is offline  
02-06-2020, 16:40   #59
Bass Reeves
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 6,459
Quote:
Originally Posted by the_syco View Post
Unless the LL adds another room, I doubt a LL would qualify for more rent if they're in an RPZ. Also, the less rentals that there are, the less the LL will need to improve their accommodation.
LL's with multiple units will have units that are 20+ years old often in a good area but in poor condition. Maybe teak windows, poor insulation, low BER, poor decor inside only attractive to lower income clients. A 30-40k upgrade which is tax deductible against all rental income would increase rent by 20-50% depending on original condition
Bass Reeves is offline  
02-06-2020, 17:26   #60
Ray Palmer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 6,098
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass Reeves View Post
LL's with multiple units will have units that are 20+ years old often in a good area but in poor condition. Maybe teak windows, poor insulation, low BER, poor decor inside only attractive to lower income clients. A 30-40k upgrade which is tax deductible against all rental income would increase rent by 20-50% depending on original condition
Upgrades are not tax deductible.
Ray Palmer is offline  
Thanks from:
Post Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Remove Text Formatting
Bold
Italic
Underline

Insert Image
Wrap [QUOTE] tags around selected text
 
Decrease Size
Increase Size
Please sign up or log in to join the discussion

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search



Share Tweet