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If you're Irish,don't meet HR clause,refused JA can you go to UK & claim dole there?

  • 02-10-2010 10:24am
    #1
    vanla sighs
    Closed Accounts Posts: 124 ✭✭vanla sighs


    I've heard of Irish people returning to Ireland after years of being away and being refused social welfare becuase they don't meet the Habitual Residency condition. But what if that Irish citizen say jumped on a bus and went to Belfast or on a plane or ferry and went to London or wherever are they not then entitled to apply for unemployment benefits in the UK? Irish citizens are after all treated as British when it comes to social welfare, voting, housing etc etc. Just as British citizens in Ireland are treated as Irish for the same services. It doesn't apply to me but just wondering. Thanks.


Comments

  • #2
    Agent_99
    Registered Users Posts: 918 ✭✭✭Agent_99


    As far as I am aware if you return to Ireland from the UK you can apply to sign on and receive benefits providing you have paid the equivalent PRSI/NIC in either country, I think that the HR rule only comes into effect if you have not paid any form of social insurance to stop people hop and skipping from one to another without contributing anything to the pot and/or signing on in both jurisdictions.
    If someone is signing on in Newry they would get £60 per week (single person 25+)
    Sign on in Dundalk €196 (single person 25+)


  • #3
    vanla sighs
    Closed Accounts Posts: 124 ✭✭vanla sighs


    Agent_99 wrote: »
    As far as I am aware if you return to Ireland from the UK you can apply to sign on and receive benefits providing you have paid the equivalent PRSI/NIC in either country, I think that the HR rule only comes into effect if you have not paid any form of social insurance to stop people hop and skipping from one to another without contributing anything to the pot and/or signing on in both jurisdictions.
    If someone is signing on in Newry they would get £60 per week (single person 25+)
    Sign on in Dundalk €196 (single person 25+)

    Thanks but I'm talking about Irish people coming home from countries other than the UK, say the US, Canada, Australia, Holland or wherever. Surely British (and Irish) people in the UK can get social welfare even if they have never worked? Surely you don't have to have worked to get the dole?


  • #4
    Balagan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,168 ✭✭✭Balagan


    The Habitual Residence Test (HRT)

    In the late 1980s the British government concerned about the perceived magnetic effect of the welfare benefit system in United Kingdom (UK), under the heading of “Benefit Tourism”, sought to affect a preventative measure to reduce the claims for benefits for people coming to UK from aboard.

    In 1994, the concern gave rise to a new legislation which was thought to be the preventative measure.

    The new legislation is called Habitual Residence Test (HRT).

    The HRT applies to both British and non-British people alike.

    The essence of the legislation is that any one who comes to UK and wants to claim a social security benefit has to show that s/he is habitually resident in UK. However, there is no actual definition for the test.

    Satisfying the test

    In order to pass the test HRT, claimants have to establish that they:

    1. Are voluntarily in UK
    2. Are resident in UK
    3. Have a settled intention to remain in UK
    4. Have been in UK for an appreciable period of time.

    If claims for benefits fail on the grounds that the claimants have not satisfied the HRT test, the tribunals and national courts will consider the claims based on the particular circumstances of each case. That is, based on the facts of each case, and, how those facts relate to the 4 key factors outlined above    ...
    http://www.multikulti.org.uk/en/immigration/habitual-residence-test-and-right-to-reside/index.html


  • #5
    vanla sighs
    Closed Accounts Posts: 124 ✭✭vanla sighs


    Balagan wrote: »
    The Habitual Residence Test (HRT)

    In the late 1980s the British government concerned about the perceived magnetic effect of the welfare benefit system in United Kingdom (UK), under the heading of “Benefit Tourism”, sought to affect a preventative measure to reduce the claims for benefits for people coming to UK from aboard.

    In 1994, the concern gave rise to a new legislation which was thought to be the preventative measure.

    The new legislation is called Habitual Residence Test (HRT).

    The HRT applies to both British and non-British people alike.

    The essence of the legislation is that any one who comes to UK and wants to claim a social security benefit has to show that s/he is habitually resident in UK. However, there is no actual definition for the test.

    Satisfying the test

    In order to pass the test HRT, claimants have to establish that they:

    1. Are voluntarily in UK
    2. Are resident in UK
    3. Have a settled intention to remain in UK
    4. Have been in UK for an appreciable period of time.

    If claims for benefits fail on the grounds that the claimants have not satisfied the HRT test, the tribunals and national courts will consider the claims based on the particular circumstances of each case. That is, based on the facts of each case, and, how those facts relate to the 4 key factors outlined above    ...
    http://www.multikulti.org.uk/en/immigration/habitual-residence-test-and-right-to-reside/index.html


    Thanks but as far as I know that would deal specifically with citizens outside the CTA, Common Travel Area. Any Irish citizen can tomorrow jump on a ferry and go over to England and sign on as far as I know. Just as any British citizen can tomorrow jump on a ferry and come over to Ireland and sign on. That British habitual test doesn't apply to Irish citizens - as far as I know.


  • #6
    Balagan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,168 ✭✭✭Balagan


    vanla sighs wrote: »
    Thanks but as far as I know that would deal specifically with citizens outside the CTA, Common Travel Area. Any Irish citizen can tomorrow jump on a ferry and go over to England and sign on as far as I know. Just as any British citizen can tomorrow jump on a ferry and come over to Ireland and sign on. That British habitual test doesn't apply to Irish citizens - as far as I know.

    Habitual residency in the country where claim is made has to be proven by anyone from anywhere claiming means tested benefits such as Jobseekers Allowance in Ireland or UK.
    Right to reside is different from right to claim certain social welfare benefits.


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  • #7
    vanla sighs
    Closed Accounts Posts: 124 ✭✭vanla sighs


    Balagan wrote: »
    Habitual residency in the country where claim is made has to be proven by anyone from anywhere claiming means tested benefits such as Jobseekers Allowance in Ireland or UK.
    Right to reside is different from right to claim certain social welfare benefits.

    But for example if you have lived in the UK and come to Ireland, Irish or British, you fulfill the HR test - it even says so on the Dept of SW site. You see Ireland and the UK have arrangements in place pre-dating even our EU membership. Irish people in the UK can vote in British general elections and British people in Ireland can vote in Irish general elections, thats just one example. So, I am pretty sure that an irish citzen who fails the Irish HR condition can then simply jump on a bus for Belfast and apply for the UK version of JA there.

    Ireland and the UK have a special arrangement you see. That arrangement doesn't exist between the UK and another 3rd country or Ireland and another 3rd country. It's specifically a bilateral arrangement that basically says: Irish in the UK are treated as British and British in Ireland are treated as Irish.


  • #8
    inbits
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34 ✭inbits


    the reciprocal arrangements with the UK concerning the *Common Travel Area (CTA), for the purpose of this factor periods of residence within the CTA immediately prior to moving to live in Ireland should be treated the same as periods of residence in Ireland. This arrangement applies only to UK citizens and EEA nationals who had retained their centre of interest within the Common Travel Area during these periods. * Ireland is part of the Common Travel Area which also includes England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man.The CTA agreement means that there are no legal barriers to a UK citizen who wishes to transfer their residence, temporarily or permanently, to Ireland, but all the HRC criteria should be examined in the usual way to determine whether the person has actually transferred their habitual residence to this State.
    http://www.welfare.ie/EN/OperationalGuidelines/Pages/habres.aspx


  • #9
    Madilynn Uptight Xenophobia
    Posts: 0 ✭ Madilynn Uptight Xenophobia


    vanla sighs wrote: »
    But for example if you have lived in the UK and come to Ireland, Irish or British, you fulfill the HR test - it even says so on the Dept of SW site. You see Ireland and the UK have arrangements in place pre-dating even our EU membership. Irish people in the UK can vote in British general elections and British people in Ireland can vote in Irish general elections, thats just one example. So, I am pretty sure that an irish citzen who fails the Irish HR condition can then simply jump on a bus for Belfast and apply for the UK version of JA there.

    Ireland and the UK have a special arrangement you see. That arrangement doesn't exist between the UK and another 3rd country or Ireland and another 3rd country. It's specifically a bilateral arrangement that basically says: Irish in the UK are treated as British and British in Ireland are treated as Irish.

    Your mistaken.

    One of the factors you need to satisfy with HR is "length and continuity of residence in Ireland." For this one factor, if you are from the UK/CTA and come to Ireland, you automatically satisfy this one factor. However, you still need to satisfy the other conditions, which are centre of intrest, employment record, future intentions etc. If you just move over from the UK today, you are not going to have an established centre of intrest here nor a good work record and therefore you will more than likely fail the HR condition.


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