Cities around the world that are reducing car access

magicbastarder · 05-06-2021 9:52pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

*how do you define an SUV? Who is going to enforce this ban? Does a Duster count given it is smaller than many cars (personally I'd ban Dusters from everywhere but that is beside the point)?

simple answer for me, it's the height.
a benchmark, take the height of the average irish woman and subtract whatever you need to get to her eyeline. probably not much over 5 foot.

the rationale behind this is that seeing over vehicles while walking around an area full of vehicles becomes important, and the effect is twofold; a) the pedestrian should be able to see over vehicles to see approaching traffic, and b) in an ideal world, the drivers of the approaching traffic should be able to see the pedestrians *before* they step out from behind those vehicles which would otherwise obscure them.

06-06-2021 4:30pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

As I asked, would a Duster meet the definition of an SUV given its dimensions are similar to many standard cars? Seems pointless defining SUVs and then putting in place a system to punish them crossing particular points when a much broader ban would be easier and more effective. That is beside my main point anyway.

It's pointless targeting a ban where something causes the most damage?
It's pointless introducing a targetted ban vs having no ban at all?

The goal should be less private vehicles in the city, not just targeting a subset of private vehicles.

Now you're making the irrational error of saying "If we can't do all of something, we should do nothing".

If you can't drive a particular type of vehicle into the city, just drive a type of vehicle that is permitted. If the number of private vehicles in the city remains the same just the makeup of those vehicles changes, than nothing has been achieved.

SUV style vehicles emit more, are more dangerous to other road users and pedestrians, take up more roadspace and cause more damage to road infrastructure - all other things being equal.
'Nothing has been achieved'

Focusing the attention on SUVs seems like a great way of the pro car lobby letting the other side have an easy victory to keep them happy, while people get a free pass to drive everywhere for a while longer.

It's almost as if banning all cars from a large portion of Dublin is currently infeasible while a targetted ban is something that can potentially be achieved right now. Considering SUVs are the standard now, with most manufacturers having either largely dropped non-SUVs or promising a future where they only build SUVs - who belongs to this mythical pro-car lobby?
It certainly isn't the SUV-buying public nor the SUV-building manufacturers.

Didn't think I would have to spell it out like that but here we are.

Indeed, here we are - mistaking your own lack of insight for some sort of wisdom. Do better.

What happened to your 'unenforceable' argument?

Pete_Cavan · 06-06-2021 6:47pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It's pointless targeting a ban where something causes the most damage?
It's pointless introducing a targetted ban vs having no ban at all?

Now you're making the irrational error of saying "If we can't do all of something, we should do nothing".

SUV style vehicles emit more, are more dangerous to other road users and pedestrians, take up more roadspace and cause more damage to road infrastructure - all other things being equal.
'Nothing has been achieved'

It's almost as if banning all cars from a large portion of Dublin is currently infeasible while a targetted ban is something that can potentially be achieved right now. Considering SUVs are the standard now, with most manufacturers having either largely dropped non-SUVs or promising a future where they only build SUVs - who belongs to this mythical pro-car lobby?
It certainly isn't the SUV-buying public nor the SUV-building manufacturers.

Indeed, here we are - mistaking your own lack of insight for some sort of wisdom. Do better.

What happened to your 'unenforceable' argument?

SUVs are a part of the problem, the sheer volume of private vehicles (of all types) in the city centre is the main problem. Far easier and more effective to implement measures to reduce the number of private vehicles than only target a subset which when removed will be replaced by other vehicles outside the ban criteria. Removing SUVs achieves nothing, the same people will continue to drive and continue to behave the same way, only behind the wheel of a different vehicle type.

magicbastarder · 06-06-2021 7:27pm

Deleted User wrote: »

SUV style vehicles ... take up more roadspace and cause more damage to road infrastructure

they don't. a ford mondeo is longer and wider than a nissan qashqai, for example.

MJohnston · 07-06-2021 8:36pm

The problem with SUVs is nothing to do with their road space usage relative to other cars. It’s just that they’re almost perfectly designed for killing child pedestrians.

loyatemu · 08-06-2021 9:11am

MJohnston wrote: »

The problem with SUVs is nothing to do with their road space usage relative to other cars. It’s just that they’re almost perfectly designed for killing child pedestrians.

the road space thing is an issue though. When I was a kid cycling to school, as well as there being fewer cars on the road, most of the mums doing the school run (obviously less common in those days) were in Minis and Fiat 124s and other tiny cars with 6 children crammed into the back.

Now they're in BMW X5s and like. 2 cars pass each other nowadays, there's a lot less margin for error than the equivalent cars in the 80s or 90s as they're both wider on average, while the roads are the same width.

The driving position of SUVs in particular but also modern cars in general, isolates you from the road and what's going on around you.

Seth Brundle · 08-06-2021 9:57am

Ha ha ha
I wonder how long she had to wait there

https://twitter.com/righttobikeit/status/1401891128136318976

JohnC. · 08-06-2021 1:25pm

What’s the story? Is the street supposed to be open or closed to cars?

Seth Brundle · 08-06-2021 1:35pm

In the video he mentions how there were signs indicating that the road would be closed to traffic from 11am (she claims to have been parked there from 9am)

Peregrine · 08-06-2021 4:24pm

One year on from making Blackrock one way traffic to increase space for walking and cycling, seven new businesses have opened up.

https://twitter.com/robertburns73/status/1400030352303865858?s=20
https://twitter.com/robertburns73/status/1402153925504077826?s=20

MJohnston · 08-06-2021 4:36pm

It's a place I actually consider going for a day now, as opposed to simply popping to some specific shop. Would love to see it entirely pedestrianised between George's Avenue and the Carysfort Avenue lights next!

JohnC. · 10-06-2021 1:06pm

Some of Waterford’s O’Connell St. closing at weekends until the end of September.

On closer inspection, it’s less than I thought. It’s from Thomas Hill rather than Thomas Street.

https://twitter.com/WaterfordCounci/status/1402958164912447488

From the Waterford board

'Let’s Meet @ O’Connell Street!
O’Connell Street businesses come together with the Waterford Cultural Quarter to create an outdoor space to meet!

We are delighted to announce that O’Connell Street will be pedestrianised each weekend for the Summer Season. The road will be closed each Friday to Sunday to facilitate Let’s Meet @ O’Connell Street!

“Let’s Meet @ O’Connell Street” is an initiative developed by a working collective of businesses operating on O'Connell Street, supported by the Waterford Cultural Quarter.

The initiative will offer Waterford residents and visitors an opportunity to zoom out and reconnect in an outdoor setting each weekend.

The Road closure will operate from 5pm Friday to 12 midnight Sunday each week commencing on 11th June, 2021 to 26th September, 2021.

The Pub’s, Thomas Mahers and Tullys, will move onto the street, creating an outdoor seating area for their customers.

The Phoenix Yard Market, Lam’s Asian Food and Eskimo Pizza will also move onto the Street, serving up a selection of food to meet all tastes.

The Cultural Quarter is an exciting and vibrant area with a number of museums and garter lane theatre. There are unique retail options like The Vintage Factory and Souk Dalma, and great cafes including The Old Couch Cafe and The Granary. You will also find fun activities in The Escape Room and Greenway Bike Hire
Claire Lalvani, from Thomas Mahers, representing the Let’s Meet @ O’Connell Street businesses said “We are delighted to be given this opportunity to open and move onto O’Connell Street at the weekends. This enables us to offer a new experience within a safe and secure environment for our customers to meet. After a long shutdown, we are eager to open and we look forward to welcoming our patrons back”.
Katherine Collins of the Waterford Cultural Quarter said “Our focus is to work with local businesses and improve the vibrancy of the Cultural Quarter for residents and visitors alike.

Let’s Meet @ O’Connell Street road closure will operate each weekend from Friday 11th June to Sunday 26th September.

#waterford #IrelandsAncientEast #keepdiscovering #PhoenixYardMarket

Thelonious Monk · 10-06-2021 2:52pm

What they've done here is terrible really, and who'd want to sit there eating with Ford Transits blasting diesel into your smashed avocado?

https://twitter.com/ccferrie/status/1402940075416211456

downtheroad · 10-06-2021 3:24pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

What they've done here is terrible really, and who'd want to sit there eating with Ford Transits blasting diesel into your smashed avocado?

https://twitter.com/ccferrie/status/1402940075416211456

Cycled past this yesterday and was thinking I won't ever bother eating outdoors on Merrion Row if there's going to be buses and vehicles spitting fumes out at you while you're trying to eat lunch. Classic Dublin, a great idea taken 90% of the way and ruined for no good reason.

MJohnston · 10-06-2021 7:51pm

downtheroad wrote: »

Cycled past this yesterday and was thinking I won't ever bother eating outdoors on Merrion Row if there's going to be buses and vehicles spitting fumes out at you while you're trying to eat lunch. Classic Dublin, a great idea taken 90% of the way and ruined for no good reason.

To be fair, at this point you’d have to say it’s classic DCC. DLRCC know what they’re doing.

cgcsb · 10-06-2021 8:56pm

Still don't see a better solution? We need bus capacity with any diversion being quite onerous and until they close down Setanta car parks there is no other escape route for cars.

You can't deny it is a lot safer for pedestrians now. The narrow footpath and the south side of the street was a death trap.

Seth Brundle · 10-06-2021 9:02pm

https://twitter.com/anthonybrog/status/1364899474263441409?s=19

Seth Brundle · 10-06-2021 9:04pm

MJohnston wrote: »

To be fair, at this point you’d have to say it’s classic DCC. DLRCC know what they’re doing.

Indeed...

https://twitter.com/robertburns73/status/1402995955717136392?s=19

downtheroad · 10-06-2021 11:46pm

MJohnston wrote: »

To be fair, at this point you’d have to say it’s classic DCC. DLRCC know what they’re doing.

Absolutely. Picnic benches provided by DLRCC along the Blackrock - Sandycove cycleway. Lucky to get an extra bin from DCC along Clontarf seafront on a bank holiday weekend.

magicbastarder · 11-06-2021 10:00am

Just 14% of Dublin houses built within walking distance of public transport
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/just-14-of-dublin-houses-built-within-walking-distance-of-public-transport-1.4589964

the article doesn't seem to explain what criteria were used; they mention a mile as a benchmark but i'm not sure if they mean 'within a mile of a rail station'; 14% would be exceptionally low if they're counting bus stops too?

AlmightyCushion · 11-06-2021 10:06am

magicbastarder wrote: »

Just 14% of Dublin houses built within walking distance of public transport
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/just-14-of-dublin-houses-built-within-walking-distance-of-public-transport-1.4589964

the article doesn't seem to explain what criteria were used; they mention a mile as a benchmark but i'm not sure if they mean 'within a mile of a rail station'; 14% would be exceptionally low if they're counting bus stops too?

I never liked the term walking distance. Technically, Belfast is walking distance from Dublin if you are willing to do it.

it does say this further down so maybe they are using 400-800m as the definition.

These mixed-use developments are generally 400- 800 meters – or walking distance – from a transport hub.

magicbastarder · 11-06-2021 10:12am

cheers, it's a tiny bit shoddy for them to switch between metric and imperial like that.

Sam Russell · 11-06-2021 10:43am

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

I never liked the term walking distance. Technically, Belfast is walking distance from Dublin if you are willing to do it.

it does say this further down so maybe they are using 400-800m as the definition.

One of the problems of 'walking distance' is that housing estates are not designed for walking - only driving. There is limited permeability for pedestrians and cyclists. You can see examples of bus stops on main roads next to a housing estate where there is no pedestrian access to that stop, except by a long walk around the houses. You would need a taxi to take you from your house to the bus.

Peregrine · 11-06-2021 11:59pm

Parliament Street was lovely today. Capel Street too. The footpath build outs on Capel Street aren't finished. People were mostly gathered around Pantibar, Nealons, McNeill's, The Boar's Head and The Black Sheep.

cgcsb · 12-06-2021 12:31am

It should definitely be every weekend. If not permanent. It would probably be hard to justify Parliament St being permanent though if we get the college green plaza

MJohnston · 12-06-2021 12:34am

If buses are already being routed away from Parliament Street, makes total sense to pedestrianise it fully.

Peregrine · 12-06-2021 12:54am

cgcsb wrote: »

It should definitely be every weekend. If not permanent. It would probably be hard to justify Parliament St being permanent though if we get the college green plaza

Brendan O'Brien was talking about a two-way bus gate as I walked past. I thought they gave up on that idea.

12-06-2021 1:04am

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

I never liked the term walking distance. Technically, Belfast is walking distance from Dublin if you are willing to do it.

it does say this further down so maybe they are using 400-800m as the definition.

I've seen 500m as the standard definition for walking distance, when studying urban development/design in Europe. The USA uses 1/4 mile, which = 400m
It's known as the 'pedestrian shed', effectively the radius of what can be travelled in a 5 minute walk.
It's why e.g. high-rise in urban development is only considered appropriate outside central business districts/downtown areas when within 500m of a metro (not bus, or tram) stop.

There's also the 'long pedestrian shed', which is a 10minute walk radius (1km in Europe, 800m in the USA)
The 400-800m is presumably someone using the 5/10min walkable distance from the US. American transit authorities use 5minutes/400m when designing bus routes, but 10minutes/800m for rail - they figure people are willing to walk further for the latter.

These two concepts are the bedrock for designing urban neighbourhoods but I doubt all that many people actually involved in infrastructure/planning in Ireland are aware of them or really understand their purpose.

LXFlyer · 12-06-2021 6:43am

MJohnston wrote: »

If buses are already being routed away from Parliament Street, makes total sense to pedestrianise it fully.

Under the College Green/Dame Street pedestrianisation plan, the alternative city centre bus route plan does see the 71 and 72 using Parliament Street to get between the Quays and George's Street to and from North Docklands/East Wall.

Thelonious Monk · 12-06-2021 11:37am

It's not perfect but it's certainly an improvement, Mannix must be losing his sh*t

https://twitter.com/streetsare4ppl/status/1403628636914208769

Cities around the world that are reducing car access

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