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M6 - Galway City Ring Road [planning decision pending]
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1. All you have to is look at the cycle lanes, they are empty during peak hours while car lanes are almost full...
I should expect so, if there were congestion on the bike lanes there'd be serious problems. Even Copenhagen would rarely see congested bike lanes so in a City like Galway where the bike lines are entirely confined to suburbs, that is no surprise".
This is not a speed thing because we are talking about one or two cyclists from Tuam to Headford roundabouts when driving down and they are not passing Cars out...
The lack of a bypass hasn't created congestion, poor planning and unwillingness to invest any money into sustainable transport modes has created congestion.2. Galway has no ring road... This causes traffic congestion which itself causes environmental problems both locally and globally.
Also since battery technology is improving all the time, by the time the road is built and especially during the lifetime of the road the car will be one of the lowest carbon footprint.
It also takes traffic out of the city and allows Public Transport and cycling/mopeds to take that infrastructure.
Personally I think this should be a reasonable sell to any court but Our concil could screw it up...
There is simply not enough Lithium and Cobalt in the world for every western world household to have an electric vehicle. EVs are a small part of sustainable transport future, electric vehicles (like fuel vehicles) are an extremely inefficient mode of transport, it's moving a single person around in a one tonne steel box no matter where the power comes from. The transport heirarchy in cities is walking, cycling, public transport then cars for the tiny number of journeys that can't be covered by the other modes. Galway has been looking at the pyramid upside down.0 -
I should expect so, if there were congestion on the bike lanes there'd be serious problems. Even Copenhagen would rarely see congested bike lanes so in a City like Galway where the bike lines are entirely confined to suburbs, that is no surprise".
This is not a speed thing because we are talking about one or two cyclists from Tuam to Headford roundabouts when driving down and they are not passing Cars out...
The lack of a bypass hasn't created congestion, poor planning and unwillingness to invest any money into sustainable transport modes has created congestion.
There is simply not enough Lithium and Cobalt in the world for every western world household to have an electric vehicle. EVs are a small part of sustainable transport future, electric vehicles (like fuel vehicles) are an extremely inefficient mode of transport, it's moving a single person around in a one tonne steel box no matter where the power comes from. The transport heirarchy in cities is walking, cycling, public transport then cars for the tiny number of journeys that can't be covered by the other modes. Galway has been looking at the pyramid upside down.
I am all for cycling and public transport but the problems of the past can't suddenly whisked away. I am saying the take up of cycling lanes is quite poor and that is why 5.5% of journeys are cycling.
We have 4 times the cars in Galway since the last bridge was built over the Corrib. The bypasss is to allow the city to breath and create space for other forms of transport. Then we have the space.
We have increased cycling by 1% in the last 12 years and there has cycle lanes been built.
By the way I would be behind increasing power to ebikes to 500 or 750 watts (same speed limit) to handle hills with passengers. I think that could be worth looking at.
I am not saying no to cycling, I am saying the present course is not yielding results... Don't stop trying, lets just see how we can make better...
The bypass is a long term investment... Look at the cities in Netherlands that we use as examples. They have the main traffic bypassed around the town and leave the city to the people...0 -
I am all for cycling and public transport but the problems of the past can't suddenly whisked away. I am saying the take up of cycling lanes is quite poor and that is why 5.5% of journeys are cycling.
We have 4 times the cars in Galway since the last bridge was built over the Corrib. The bypasss is to allow the city to breath and create space for other forms of transport. Then we have the space.
We have increased cycling by 1% in the last 12 years and there has cycle lanes been built.
By the way I would be behind increasing power to ebikes to 500 or 750 watts (same speed limit) to handle hills with passengers. I think that could be worth looking at.
I am not saying no to cycling, I am saying the present course is not yielding results... Don't stop trying, lets just see how we can make better...
The bypass is a long term investment... Look at the cities in Netherlands that we use as examples. They have the main traffic bypassed around the town and leave the city to the people...
In Galway technically the City Centre is bypassed, via QC bridge. However the outer parts of City quickly expanded to fill all the space.
That is the exact same thing that's going to happen with the new ring road - residential & commerical developments will spring up in the lands further out of the city, along the bypass route.
More people will opt to drive since there's a fancy new bypass/ring road to get them across the city.
THen in a few years time, it will be gridlock - again - only this time with a far bigger traffic problem to untangle.
The problem is cars, cowboy. The only way to fix it is to make it viable to commute via bus, bike or rail. (And by increasing population density - but thats beyond the scope of this thread really)0 -
Any word on the Oral Hearing restarting?0
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I am all for cycling and public transport but the problems of the past can't suddenly whisked away.
Actually they can, if there's €600m+ to be spent on the bypass then there is more than sufficient money to correct all of Galway's transport issues in a very short time.I am saying the take up of cycling lanes is quite poor and that is why 5.5% of journeys are cycling.
This is hilarious. Of course the take up is poor because most journeys in Galway, and every city are radial (centre to suburb and back) but there are no cycle lanes in the city, only on suburban roads. It's like if we built the bypass except for the river crossing and said, jeeze take up of driving on that disjointed 'bypass' is pretty poor while scratching our heads.The bypasss is to allow the city to breath and create space for other forms of transport. Then we have the space.
The space already exists, it's full of cars though.We have increased cycling by 1% in the last 12 years and there has cycle lanes been built.
1% growth after doing next to nothing for cycling is pretty impressive.I am not saying no to cycling, I am saying the present course is not yielding results... Don't stop trying, lets just see how we can make better...
yes present car centric policies haven't work anywhere but we keep trying of course.The bypass is a long term investment... Look at the cities in Netherlands that we use as examples. They have the main traffic bypassed around the town and leave the city to the people...
The Netherlands built those roads at the peak of their car dominant era before the cycling revolution.0 -
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We have 4 times the cars in Galway since the last bridge was built over the Corrib.
The bypasss is to allow the city to breath and create space for other forms of transport.
The number of private cars has quadrupled since the mid to late 80s, you say, and all of a sudden we need another ring road to "create space" for the bus lanes and bicycle paths that the City Council and Department of Transport failed to provide for the past thirty years?
Pull the other one. It has a bicycle bell on.0 -
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The number of private cars has quadrupled since the mid to late 80s, you say, and all of a sudden we need another ring road to "create space" for the bus lanes and bicycle paths that the City Council and Department of Transport failed to provide for the past thirty years?
Pull the other one. It has a bicycle bell on.
Yes four times.... I showed the numbers pages ago...
It is far from sudden... The outer ring road has been in the planning since the 90s... You are just painting it as sudden...
The rest of what you are saying is to blame, blame and blame.... Blame doesn't change conditions today. If you live in the west of the city and need to the east of Ireland you have to go through the city.
Irish0 -
Yes four times.... I showed the numbers pages ago...
It is far from sudden... The outer ring road has been in the planning since the 90s... You are just painting it as sudden...
The rest of what you are saying is to blame, blame and blame.... Blame doesn't change conditions today. If you live in the west of the city and need to the east of Ireland you have to go through the city.
Irish
Isn't part of the problem that huge amounts of the traffic isn't going 'fully' west to east or east to west (beyond Galway), rather people living on the west side work on the east side of Galway itself? That doesn't need a bypass, it needs a very high quality bus corridor west to east with cycling options that don't route you into kerbs, open traffic or take the longest route. Surely at a minimum these things could be done for a fraction of the cost of the bypass in the meantime to see if it helps? QBC along the Galway ring road with high quality cycle lanes shouldn't impact on the bypass, unless its a roaring success and kills the business case...
I imagine you wouldn't be opposed to them doing that now while the process trundles on, especially as you don't seem to rate these solutions much so they shouldn't do anything as dramatic as kill the need for the bypass?
In this case I am not even suggesting removing traffic from the town centre, although this concept would be better served if there were radials into town from this 'ring-route'.
Edit: I decided to check some routings, from estates in Knocknacarra to Parkmore West Business Park (This seems to me like the longest general commuting distance in Galway, correct me if i'm wrong). If you were able to keep a standard commuting pace the entire distance (11.1km) you would expect the journey to take 35 minutes by bike, which is well within reasonable commuting distance. By Car it looks like it averages out at 25-30 minutes of a drive, so a bare 5 minutes difference for a cyclist, if this route had genuinely good cycle paths I see absolutely no reason why it wouldn't be well utilised
Public transport is a different story though, best time I could find for the current scenario is 1 hour, and that is into the town centre, change buses, and out again, a Ring route QBC could cut that time dramatically.0 -
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It's true that a new bypass would free up lots of space in the city centre and existing bypass currently being used by cars, but if GCC's car-dominant policy continues all that space would get used up by more cars - mostly the same motorists driving more frequently.
You have to get rid of the car-centric policies no matter what course of action you take.0 -
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We have 4 times the cars in Galway since the last bridge was built over the Corrib.
1990: 25% of the traffic volume as will exist 30 years in the future, yet no bus lanes, public transport services or cycle network being constructed at any meaningful level for the city population.It is far from sudden... The outer ring road has been in the planning since the 90s... You are just painting it as sudden...
2020: a "bypass" that has been "in the planning since the 1990s" is needed to "allow the city to breathe" and to "create space for other forms of transport". Then and only then will we "have the space".
Remarkable.spacetweek wrote: »It's true that a new bypass would free up lots of space in the city centre and existing bypass currently being used by cars, but if GCC's car-dominant policy continues all that space would get used up by more cars - mostly the same motorists driving more frequently.
You have to get rid of the car-centric policies no matter what course of action you take.
The fact of the matter is that when the council and the relevant state agencies and government departments had the opportunity (eg the same road network but around "a quarter" of the present population) they failed to act. They could have used the fourth bridge not only as a ring road to keep through traffic out of the central area generally, but also could have made it a high capacity corridor for the use of public transport and cycling. They chose not to.
In fact, they did the very opposite, year after year, decade after decade. The new bridge was only ever going to be used for two things: one, to cram more cars into the city centre, and two, to allow development around the N6 corridor and at either end of it. It's why we ended up with several high-capacity car-parks in the city centre, it's why we got new development around Terryland, it's why we got expansion in Parkmore, and it's why we got low density sprawl in various locations. It was only ever seen as a way to get a larger population moving around in more cars.
Anyone who believes that a new ring road is intended to be a completely new departure from that development model either thinks they are living in a different country or else they are from another planet. There is no such intention, and that is not what the M6 Galway City Ring Road will be used for. Ignore the promo stuff and focus on what is actually done in this country, and has been done for decades.0 -
I am all for cycling and public transport but the problems of the past can't suddenly whisked away. I am saying the take up of cycling lanes is quite poor and that is why 5.5% of journeys are cycling.
We have increased cycling by 1% in the last 12 years and there has cycle lanes been built.
I am not saying no to cycling, I am saying the present course is not yielding results... Don't stop trying, lets just see how we can make better...
Your pushing this idea on this thread now. What projections from City Council plans are you referring too?
You are pushing the idea that they actually tried to implement these mythical plans? The 5.5% is in spite of the Council really- not because the Council have actually done anything meaningful.
There has been very little investment in Cycling, show us the projects and the moneys spent in the last 12 years. The major spend has been on the N6 junctions/roundabouts, this was to increase car traffic throughput.
The Bikeshare was done in that 12yr period - but that was minimal in scope and scale. They never got it right from the start - made to fail.0 -
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1990: 25% of the traffic volume as will exist 30 years in the future, yet no bus lanes, public transport services or cycle network being constructed at any meaningful level for the city population.
2020: a "bypass" that has been "in the planning since the 1990s" is needed to "allow the city to breathe" and to "create space for other forms of transport". Then and only then will we "have the space".
Remarkable.
The fact of the matter is that when the council and the relevant state agencies and government departments had the opportunity (eg the same road network but around "a quarter" of the present population) they failed to act. They could have used the fourth bridge not only as a ring road to keep through traffic out of the central area generally, but also could have made it a high capacity corridor for the use of public transport and cycling. They chose not to.
In fact, they did the very opposite, year after year, decade after decade. The new bridge was only ever going to be used for two things: one, to cram more cars into the city centre, and two, to allow development around the N6 corridor and at either end of it. It's why we ended up with several high-capacity car-parks in the city centre, it's why we got new development around Terryland, it's why we got expansion in Parkmore, and it's why we got low density sprawl in various locations. It was only ever seen as a way to get a larger population moving around in more cars.
Anyone who believes that a new ring road is intended to be a completely new departure from that development model either thinks they are living in a different country or else they are from another planet. There is no such intention, and that is not what the M6 Galway City Ring Road will be used for. Ignore the promo stuff and focus on what is actually done in this country, and has been done for decades.
Ruhanna
Truth is for close to 30 years nothing was done...
The fault of this mess lies with City Council. I think the executive brach has been one deployable mess after another, the councillors themselves aren't the worst but have no power unless over 2/3s of them agree.
So we are all fighting for scraps of the table. Personally I think trying to implement a mass movement to Cycling and PT right now could have a massive backlash... There is no space and 60% of the people use cars. Cycling in places like Knocknacarra to Ballybrit didn't work and nobody wants to figure out why?
I think they put in bus lanes without the bus infrastructure so all people see is an empty bus lane with no buses and an empty cycle lane with no cyclists...
Facts are facts... Elected officials will not take the heat on this and will turn on it...
There are simple things that could help:
Ebikes: Make them 1000w for non cargo and 2.5kw for cargo... limit them to 20mph... Europe has only a directive on this and this would make the Boston Scientific to Sheridan's 17min... The bike could handle hills with ease and the work to bike scheme would take half off...
So radrunner 1 with a few mudguards, bigger seat and light would set you back €700-800(US version is 750w)... This is cheap and can be used as a runaround and can zip to pub and home again. This creates an option for non bike riders(reasonable cost, low fitness, multiple uses...)
Public Transport: Instead of the hap hazard was dyke road was blocked... Hire a fleet of buses, create direct routes across city (with roads closed e.g. Salmon weir bridge, Eglington st...), consulate with the public, pick a date for a three month trial, Market the crap out of it.... Advertise to hell... Massive Public Awareness...
Review every month and prepare to give another 3 months... After six it can be put forward for permanency..
They are just two thoughts... I think if the Ebike took off the lanes will come later..0 -
what_traffic wrote: »Your pushing this idea on this thread now. What projections from City Council plans are you referring too?
You are pushing the idea that they actually tried to implement these mythical plans? The 5.5% is in spite of the Council really- not because the Council have actually done anything meaningful.
There has been very little investment in Cycling, show us the projects and the moneys spent in the last 12 years. The major spend has been on the N6 junctions/roundabouts, this was to increase car traffic throughput.
The Bikeshare was done in that 12yr period - but that was minimal in scope and scale. They never got it right from the start - made to fail.
Westside road works lasted 2 years... Ask anybody on the Westside of the city, it was painful..
That completed the Knocknacarra to Ballybrit section...0 -
In Galway technically the City Centre is bypassed, via QC bridge. However the outer parts of City quickly expanded to fill all the space.
That is the exact same thing that's going to happen with the new ring road - residential & commerical developments will spring up in the lands further out of the city, along the bypass route.
More people will opt to drive since there's a fancy new bypass/ring road to get them across the city.
THen in a few years time, it will be gridlock - again - only this time with a far bigger traffic problem to untangle.
The problem is cars, cowboy. The only way to fix it is to make it viable to commute via bus, bike or rail. (And by increasing population density - but thats beyond the scope of this thread really)
The bypass can't solve planning issues... They are planning issues.
I am complaining that there is no target, no assessment of success or failure. No measurable... Our City Council seem to like this as they can never be accused of failure no matter how glaring..
Sorry but the Knocknacarra- Ballybrit cycle lane at the moment is a failure. It almost looks like a white elephant. That shouldn't be the way it is...
Sidenote:
One of the major issues is people can't afford to live in the city... It is cheaper for a student (or hospital worker) to live at home in Tuam or Athenry and commute everyday to college. This is a huge influx of cars, there is not viable way for these people to travel in terms of cost or time. Other methods are not competitive...0 -
Westside road works lasted 2 years... Ask anybody on the Westside of the city, it was painful..
That completed the Knocknacarra to Ballybrit section...
You are really clutching at straws.
Planning for SQR/BOD this was given by ABP back in 2003 to Galway City Council. From cycling and public transport perspective it did not complete anything? It's just one segment of a network. Its got MULTILANE Roundabouts at either end of it.0 -
Almost.:DSorry but the Knocknacarra- Ballybrit cycle lane at the moment is a failure. It almost looks like a white elephant. That shouldn't be the way it is...
Your looking for elephants that dont exist
What you see as a Cycle Path - was actually constructed as a service duct along the N6 section back in the 90's. i.e Section from Newcastle to Ballybrit.
Thats why it gets dug up regularly. The Council only in recent years decided they needed to add KM of cycle paths to there "Cycle Network" - so the put up a few cycle poles up along it. Opportunity arose as the TII were converting roundabouts into signalised junctions to increase vehicular traffic movements. Still not finished with that project.0 -
what_traffic wrote: »Almost.:D
Your looking for elephants that dont exist
What you see as a Cycle Path - was actually constructed as a service duct along the N6 section back in the 90's. i.e Section from Newcastle to Ballybrit.
Thats why it gets dug up regularly. The Council only in recent years decided they needed to add KM of cycle paths to there "Cycle Network" - so the put up a few cycle poles up along it. Opportunity arose as the TII were converting roundabouts into signalised junctions to increase vehicular traffic movements. Still not finished with that project.
I think we agree from two opposite end of a discussion...
We both agree the City Council is crap.. for different reasons...
I think it is fair to say there avoiding take to take responsibility, having no transparency or subjecting themselves to scrutiny ins World Class...
They could have made something about this but they didn't...0 -
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I think we agree from two opposite end of a discussion...
We both agree the City Council is crap.. for different reasons...
I think it is fair to say there avoiding take to take responsibility, having no transparency or subjecting themselves to scrutiny ins World Class...
They could have made something about this but they didn't...
I agree to a point- I don't believe they are fit for purpose in the current form, for various reasons. Don't have the money(local) nor the expertise to implement basic changes.
The big problem though is this.
Do you believe that City Council have been curtailing funds against car based transport (even though they have already spent millions on the €700,000,000 Ring Road Scheme. ARUP Design team been working on it since 2013 ) and have been spending big amount of moneys on stand alone cycle scheme's?
I know that they have thrown up a few cycle signs on the N6 and now in 2020 a few bike racks here and there around town (cheap spend but well worth it). The bikeshare scheme was funded by the TII and half of the funding was Sponsorship.0 -
There is no space and 60% of the people use cars.
It's probably closer to 66%. Maybe even more?
Are you still saying that the way to make space for public transport etcetra is to construct a new ring road?
Because you haven't answered this question:How will that work exactly? At the minute the traffic lanes are full of people in cars, and nobody is using the bus and bike lanes. Build a ring road and take most of the car traffic out. Then the bus and bike lanes will be used by ... whom?
Right now, on our congested road network, two thirds of commuters travel by car. So we build the proposed Galway City Ring Road supposedly to make space for public transport, cycling etc.
However, the new road will also make driving much easier, because traffic congestion is the problem to be solved, right?
Once the ring road is built, traffic is free flowing and there's more space on city roads, what percentage of commuters will stop travelling by car? And why?0 -
It's probably closer to 66%. Maybe even more?
Are you still saying that the way to make space for public transport etcetra is to construct a new ring road?
Because you haven't answered this question:
Right now, on our congested road network, two thirds of commuters travel by car. So we build the proposed Galway City Ring Road supposedly to make space for public transport, cycling etc.
However, the new road will also make driving much easier, because traffic congestion is the problem to be solved, right?
Once the ring road is built, traffic is free flowing and there's more space on city roads, what percentage of commuters will stop travelling by car? And why?
What is our goal/target?
Is it to bring down travel times and keep them there?0 -
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riddlinrussell wrote: »To make Galway a city people want to live and work in and around and give people a good quality of life?
How do we measure that?0 -
How do we measure that?
Making Galway an attractive place to live and work in could be figured out by a combination of numbers moving to the city/GDP growth/employment figures for the city. Quality of life, not as easily measurable, some combination of happiness index + health statistics + maybe a few surveys of sections of the population?0 -
What is our goal/target?
Is it to bring down travel times and keep them there?
Should we just resign ourselves now to accepting that you're not going to answer this question?Because you haven't answered this question:
Once the ring road is built, traffic is free flowing and there's more space on city roads, what percentage of commuters will stop travelling by car? And why?0 -
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Galway City Ring Road is not the silver bullet, O'Reilly tells oral hearing
https://www.advertiser.ie/galway/article/117522/galway-city-ring-road-is-not-the-silver-bullet-oreilly-tells-oral-hearingGreen Party senator Pauline O'Reilly has told the oral hearing into the Galway City Ring Road that it is not the answer to the traffic probelsm that Galway is experiencing.
She said that while many have awaited news of the Galway City Ring Road for decades, it will not be the silver bullet that politicians have been promising. In fact if this road is built it will change the very essence of both rural and urban Galway making it unrecognisable to us.
“As soon as we have that bypass, homes will start to appear on the far side of the road; homes that are almost entirely dependent on their cars. This is the type of planning common across the US. We have a current challenge, which is congestion in the city, but we need to see a solution that is not going to exacerbate the problem by adding more road traffic. Where transport infrastructure exists, housing, retail, industry will appear and all of these people and businesses will be dependent on that form of transport. We only have to look at history to know that this is true.
Where there is a rail line – homes are built.
Where there is light rail – home are built.
Where there is a massive bypass – homes will be built.
All of this points to sprawl, which is entirely against good planning principals. From that point on, the people living in those homes will be entirely dependent on that form of transport until more transport is found.
“Will another road be needed on the far side of the by-pass when the housing moves further and further away?”
“Only 3% of traffic goes from outside the city to out the other side of the city. The majority of road users in fact do not cross the river. The way we address the issue therefore must be through public transport, which is entirely suitable for this kind of urban congestion.
Galway has a very low uptake for buses and cycling and this is what must be addressed. It has already started with bus connects and cycleways underway. I also believe that a double track from Athenry to the city would has have huge gains, and this was not examined as part of the application. In fact 35% of all traffic during rush hour is school traffic. With school buses and safe routes to school we can dramatically reduce car dependency in our small city. All it takes is political will and I believe we have that.
“Many people are already reliant on their cars. Those are the communities we should be supporting in rural Galway. That means putting electric charging points in place, and building more community hubs and schools. It means ensuring there are bus shelters in all towns and villages like Spiddal and Barna, and making sure that the buses leave on time for school.”
“Fundamentally it comes down to this, with all of the talk of the bypass addressing Galway’s transport problems, it is only estimated to take 5% more traffic off the roads than if the public and active transport elements of the strategy were in place. I believe that over time, it has the potential to increase road traffic through induced demand," she concluded.0 -
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A great speech that sums up the issues at hand here, Induced demand is a well established phenomenon at this stage. Also with recent court defeats on environmental grounds, and environmental legislation only getting stronger, they may be forced anyway into enacting the 'greener' solutions before road building happens, while that might be frustrating, I think its the right way to do things, far too long has this country looked to roads to fix all its issues and all its gotten is more and more congestion.0
This discussion has been closed.
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