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Should This be Reported?

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2»

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  • Options
    #32
    StackSteevens
    Closed Accounts Posts: 873 ✭✭✭StackSteevens


    nthclare wrote: »

    My aul lad had a senior job in the department of justice, and he thought me well as a kid and teenager


    Hmmmmmm.............


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    #33
    nthclare
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,316 ✭✭✭nthclare


    StackSteevens wrote: »
    Hmmmmmm.............

    Thanks for the correction, the cheque is in the post.

    I promise :)


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    #34
    Linoge
    Registered Users Posts: 1,790 ✭✭✭Linoge


    Cheers for all the replies
    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    No, I don't believe it will be useful in any way.

    If she goes to HR the only thing it proves to HR is that she's someone who goes to HR. She won't be telling them anything they don't already know.

    The single and only advantage of going to HR is that there is a company record that the event took place. If she was to take say an unfair dismissal /constructive dismissal/ harassment /anything kind of case (that this may progress to a year down the road) the first question that would be asked by a tribunal is why didn’t she report previous issues through the correct processes within the company. With company lawyers asking “how convenient this is that there is suddenly another incident” and “why is all this only coming to light now when employees are fully encouraged to come forward to report these issues?”

    Regardless of what will and won’t be done (again - HR will do NOTHING/ZIP/ZERO - this is not in debate here), it is the employee who will need to prove that she a) followed correct company procedure and b) has legitimate, verifiable evidence to back up her case.


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    #35
    Vetch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 422 ✭✭Vetch


    Linoge wrote: »
    Cheers for all the replies



    The single and only advantage of going to HR is that there is a company record that the event took place. If she was to take say an unfair dismissal /constructive dismissal/ harassment /anything kind of case (that this may progress to a year down the road) the first question that would be asked by a tribunal is why didn’t she report previous issues through the correct processes within the company. With company lawyers asking “how convenient this is that there is suddenly another incident” and “why is all this only coming to light now when employees are fully encouraged to come forward to report these issues?”

    Regardless of what will and won’t be done (again - HR will do NOTHING/ZIP/ZERO - this is not in debate here), it is the employee who will need to prove that she a) followed correct company procedure and b) has legitimate, verifiable evidence to back up her case.

    OP, from your other posts, HR already seems to be aware of what happened. There are a few references to requesting a 'confidential' meeting with HR. It seems unlikely that HR would keep any conversation confidential as, as already mentioned, their brief is to protect the company. Your friend seems to have 'won' this round. I think your friend's approach of compiling a record if needed for the future is useful. What I haven't seen mentioned in the thread is whether the same tactic was employed in relation to other employees.


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    #36
    Linoge
    Registered Users Posts: 1,790 ✭✭✭Linoge


    Vetch wrote: »
    What I haven't seen mentioned in the thread is whether the same tactic was employed in relation to other employees.

    She believes it has been used (with at least some level of success) with several other employees in her dept. So this was not a tactic management are only using with her, but she may be the first who it wasn’t successful with (and there would be no real way of finding this out). My guess would be that anyone who it was tried with but it didn’t work would just have left the organisation at the soonest opportunity afterwards - and so would just look like regular turnover.


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    #37
    StackSteevens
    Closed Accounts Posts: 873 ✭✭✭StackSteevens


    Linoge wrote: »

    The shortened question is - If she goes to HR and their policy allows her to make a good faith complaint in full confidendiality - could the complaint/ record of this event help her with a potential constructive dismissal case down the road?

    Well, it couldn't do any harm and might be useful. The confidentiality question isn't here or there; if we're talking about a potential unfair dismissal case then she needs to kick them hard in the shins.

    Ideally she should write a letter to HR outlining the facts and dates, ask that it be added to her personnel file and request a written confirmation that it was.

    (If she wanted to make them sit up and take notice she could also mention on the letter that she was cc'ing it to her solicitor!)


  • Options
    #38
    _Brian
    Registered Users Posts: 18,474 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    Having worked extensively in managment in miltinational companies I can say with 99.9% certaintity that HR were already in on this issue of getting the employee onto the lower pay contract, its not like a manager decides to put employees onto new contracts to pass the time, this is a HR driven agenda, yes theres a chance the manager was off on a solo run threatening the redundancy.

    HR would be aware of most constructive dismissals etc, guiding managers and supervisors to stay within the lines "just".

    I've sat in "pre meetings" with HR and HR's "employee representitive" where it would be agreed in advance what the best outcome was and how it would be achieved with least trouble.

    Reporting this will probably keep them on their toes, possibly the manager went off script a bit, but unless theres a paper trail its probably going to go down as a non issue.


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    #39
    mariaalice
    Registered Users Posts: 12,362 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    The place is booming, they want to take on more but not pay the same as the current employees, they are doing this because paying different rates of pay for the same role might cause resentment easier to try and lower the average pay for the role.

    They must be fairly certain that they are paying above what is being paid locally for the same role or they would not be doing this and that is why others have accepted the new contract.


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    #40
    Linoge
    Registered Users Posts: 1,790 ✭✭✭Linoge


    StackSteevens wrote: »
    Well, it couldn't do any harm and might be useful. The confidentiality question isn't here or there; if we're talking about a potential unfair dismissal case then she needs to kick them hard in the shins.

    Ideally she should write a letter to HR outlining the facts and dates, ask that it be added to her personnel file and request a written confirmation that it was.

    (If she wanted to make them sit up and take notice she could also mention on the letter that she was cc'ing it to her solicitor!)

    This is it indeed - she needs to show that she can and will stand up for herself. Whether that is including a solicitor, recording the events officially etc - it all shows that she is not going to be caught out with an unfair dismissal, and if it does come down to it that she would 100% follow up.

    Some people think that this action may be heavy handed - but how could it be when they have literally threatened to fire her? What is the more diplomatic action here - take SM and HR in to a room and say "I really didn't appreciate what you did. Would you mind not doing this again?"

    Her career is shot in there now obviously and she has a target on her back. This has all moved to preserving her job and not bring some nastiness/bullying upon herself until another role comes up and she can get out of there.
    _Brian wrote: »
    Having worked extensively in managment in miltinational companies I can say with 99.9% certaintity that HR were already in on this issue of getting the employee onto the lower pay contract, its not like a manager decides to put employees onto new contracts to pass the time, this is a HR driven agenda, yes theres a chance the manager was off on a solo run threatening the redundancy.

    Manager wasn't on a solo run + HR were in the loop. It was some previous poster that suggested that this was the case but it was not. Separately, the budget etc is driven by the management so would be 100% their agenda. HR just do what they are told by management.
    _Brian wrote: »
    Reporting this will probably keep them on their toes, possibly the manager went off script a bit, but unless theres a paper trail its probably going to go down as a non issue.

    Exactly, without paper trails you have nothing. And showing there are paper trails does make people think twice. Knowing the law and letting them know that you know the law could never be hurtful in any situation.
    mariaalice wrote: »
    They must be fairly certain that they are paying above what is being paid locally for the same role or they would not be doing this and that is why others have accepted the new contract.

    Others were more than likely duped by the fake redundancy negotiating tactic. This company is not interested in paying the market rate for the role. The process looks to be entice high quality workers in with a very competitive salary, then try to renogiate like the above after some years. If they take the bait then happy days. If not, say "my bad" and try to move on like nothing happened. Poorly performing, unscrupulous managers would have no issue doing exactly this as a way to justify their own salary - "look at the cost saving we made".

    The advantage they are trying to press here is that people would be more reluctant to move due to the pandemic. Otherwise I very much doubt they would have done it to this girl.


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    #41
    OMM 0000
    Registered Users Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭OMM 0000


    Linoge wrote: »
    The process looks to be entice high quality workers in with a very competitive salary, then try to renogiate like the above after some years. If they take the bait then happy days. If not, say "my bad" and try to move on like nothing happened.

    There is no way a multinational has this process.

    I see a consistent pattern with these sorts of posts on boards.

    1. The employee is perfect.

    There is no other side to the story, and anyone who says otherwise is victimising the employee. Nevermind that every story has multiple perspectives and interpretations.

    If you're struggling to accept this, take a look at your teammates. How many of them are perfect? None? How many of them are kind of useless or unreasonable? A few? Guess what, they also think they're perfect. Want to take a guess what they think of you?

    2. Managers are evil.

    The real issue is many people who post here don't understand the role of a manager. They think it's an extension of their time in school - their teacher has been replaced by a manager, so they expect their manager to have the same caring touch and feel victimised this isn't happening. Grow up.

    The main role of a manager is to get the maximum amount of work out out you without breaking you. You've probably heard the phrase turn the dial up/turn it down. This is referring to pressure. Turn up the pressure to get them to work harder, turn it down when it's becoming too much for them.

    All managers do this. If you've worked for a charismatic manager, you just didn't realise it.

    The sooner you accept this, the sooner you can realise they're just doing their job. Forge a relationship with them to make your life easier. Then one day you can become the wonderful manager you wished existed. Guess what, that's what your manager thought too.

    3. Companies are evil.

    They're not. There may be some people at governance level who are psychos (very likely) but you probably never interact with them. There are probably some managers or HR who are unethical and have poor people skills. These people exist everywhere. Either learn to deal with it or continue being a victim. I can tell you from experience that these companies, with idiot managers and HR, are the best companies to work for, because you can go to the leadership with solutions. And you will get promoted for it. But if you want to sit there sulking, damaging your relationship with the company, you will get nowhere, and most importantly, you will remain unhappy.

    So let's apply these three items to this thread.

    1. You're not perfect. The company wouldn't have aggressively shoved a new contract (lower pay) in your face with threats of redundancy if they rated you. Companies do not do this to their star employees. Open your mind to the entirety of this situation and start thinking strategically. Currently you're losing yourself in emotions and conspiracy theories.

    The correct move here, assuming you don't want to leave, is fix your relationship with this manager and improve your performance.

    2. He might be a crap manager. He may even be evil. What's the best way to fight someone like this? Run to HR? No, he's already in management so they're on his side. The solution is to form a friendship with him so he (a) won't do this again and (b) will try to protect you because you're his ally.

    3. Decide where you want to be in the company. Hate it there? Leave. Want to build a career there? Then completely change your mentality because running to HR, making up conspiracy theories, and being unable to accept criticism is going to get you nowhere.


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    #42
    Strumms
    Registered Users Posts: 24,806 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    Nobody is asking for perfection.

    What people are asking for is professionalism, fairness and that managers play by the rules, they expect employees to, they must too.

    People in positions of responsibility and authority need to play by the book if they demand other do. The most crucial aspect of ‘leadership’ is setting examples and leading by them...


  • Options
    #43
    Linoge
    Registered Users Posts: 1,790 ✭✭✭Linoge


    OMM 0000 wrote: »
    There is no way a multinational has this process.

    I see a consistent pattern with these sorts of posts on boards.
    .

    You're above is very long and I didnt get to read but I got the gist of what youre probably trying to say.

    Not trying to be offensive here, but you do sound quite inexperienced in the corporate world. I'm sure you are prob very talented at what you do and you lucked out at getting in to a decent employer straight after college and have been with them ever since. Your limited experience makes you feel that every industry/employer/manager are like this - but this is naivety in its truest form.

    Other people in this thread have called you a company man, and i cant say i disagree given what I have read from your earlier posts.

    This is a public forum so I'm not going to tell you what you can and cant post. But know that people on this forum are looking for help, and if you are not able to offer constructive help and have limited experience yourself, maybe leave the "helping" to other, more business/corporate experienced posters.

    From my own experience you came across as extremely rude, unhelpful, argumentitive, naive, and if I could block you and your posts I would have (or is there a way?). Your only purpose seemed to be to try to derail the thread.

    Thank you to everytone else here for taking them time to contribute to the discussion.


  • Options
    #44
    OMM 0000
    Registered Users Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭OMM 0000


    Linoge wrote: »
    You're above is very long and I didnt get to read but I got the gist of what youre probably trying to say.

    Not trying to be offensive here, but you do sound quite inexperienced in the corporate world. I'm sure you are prob very talented at what you do and you lucked out at getting in to a decent employer straight after college and have been with them ever since. Your limited experience makes you feel that every industry/employer/manager are like this - but this is naivety in its truest form.

    Other people in this thread have called you a company man, and i cant say i disagree given what I have read from your earlier posts.

    This is a public forum so I'm not going to tell you what you can and cant post. But know that people on this forum are looking for help, and if you are not able to offer constructive help and have limited experience yourself, maybe leave the "helping" to other, more business/corporate experienced posters.

    From my own experience you came across as extremely rude, unhelpful, argumentitive, naive, and if I could block you and your posts I would have (or is there a way?). Your only purpose seemed to be to try to derail the thread.

    Thank you to everytone else here for taking them time to contribute to the discussion.

    I am CEO of a multinational with over 20 years experience.

    I live in Japan and have worked in multiple countries.

    I don't disagree I can come across as an asshole, however my analysis is correct.


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    #45
    Linoge
    Registered Users Posts: 1,790 ✭✭✭Linoge


    OMM 0000 wrote: »
    I am CEO of a multinational with over 20 years experience.

    I live in Japan and have worked in multiple countries.

    I don't disagree I can come across as an asshole, however my analysis is correct.

    I'm not sure if the above is a joke, but i dont know why the CEO of a multinational is arguing with some dude over the internet at 3:00am in the morning. Although I appreciate this, don't you value your time and feel you can be more productive with it?

    If you feel you can come across as an asshole, why dont you try to be a bit more assertive and a lot less aggressive?

    The flaw from much of your logic that I can see is that you treat "companies" and "management" as the same thing. Management are of course just people (and we all know that they also would have a higher % of psychopaths and narccisists at that). They can also come under serious pressure to perform - many are in over their head - some possibly not suitably qualified, or equally under significant pressure to pull a rabbit our of their arse. This can and will lead to issues and unfair treatment of employees. So posters problems here aren't "THE MGMT vs THE PEOPLE", its usually just "People vs People".

    If you want to post advise, post advise. What are you trying to achieve with your investigative questions? Are you trying to restore some redacted companies honour? Expect that whoever is posting is posting in good faith. if you dont feel they are posting in good faith - why are you even bothering to respond? If you want thank clicks or some fake internet points for "calling someone out" .... come on mate, be a better person than that.


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    #46
    OMM 0000
    Registered Users Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭OMM 0000


    Linoge wrote: »
    I'm not sure if the above is a joke, but i dont know why the CEO of a multinational is arguing with some dude over the internet at 3:00am in the morning. Although I appreciate this, don't you value your time and feel you can be more productive with it?

    If you feel you can come across as an asshole, why dont you try to be a bit more assertive and a lot less aggressive?

    The flaw from much of your logic that I can see is that you treat "companies" and "management" as the same thing. Management are of course just people (and we all know that they also would have a higher % of psychopaths and narccisists at that). They can also come under serious pressure to perform - many are in over their head - some possibly not suitably qualified, or equally under significant pressure to pull a rabbit our of their arse. This can and will lead to issues and unfair treatment of employees. So posters problems here aren't "THE MGMT vs THE PEOPLE", its usually just "People vs People".

    If you want to post advise, post advise. What are you trying to achieve with your investigative questions? Are you trying to restore some redacted companies honour? Expect that whoever is posting is posting in good faith. if you dont feel they are posting in good faith - why are you even bothering to respond? If you want thank clicks or some fake internet points for "calling someone out" .... come on mate, be a better person than that.

    If you read my second previous post (the long one), you will see I make three points: one is management, another is companies. I separate the two. So your theory that I think management and companies are the same is incorrect.

    The real problem here is you only wanted people to agree with you. You didn't want to be challenged. You don't like being challenged. It makes you panic.

    My advice to you is start thinking strategically. Slow down, stop being defensive, and start considering what people say.


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    #47
    Augme
    Registered Users Posts: 5,088 ✭✭✭Augme


    OMM 0000 wrote: »
    My advice to you is start thinking strategically. Slow down, stop being defensive, and start considering what people say.

    The irony of this is genuinely mind blowing. Haha.


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    #48
    OMM 0000
    Registered Users Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭OMM 0000


    Augme wrote: »
    The irony of this is genuinely mind blowing. Haha.

    Really?

    Please explain how I don't think strategically in the workplace.


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    #49
    Augme
    Registered Users Posts: 5,088 ✭✭✭Augme


    OMM 0000 wrote: »
    Really?

    Please explain how I don't think strategically in the workplace.

    I've no idea how you think in the workplace.


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    #50
    OMM 0000
    Registered Users Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭OMM 0000


    Augme wrote: »
    I've no idea how you think in the workplace.

    Then how is the irony mind blowing?


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    #51
    _Brian
    Registered Users Posts: 18,474 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    Strumms wrote: »
    Nobody is asking for perfection.

    What people are asking for is professionalism, fairness and that managers play by the rules, they expect employees to, they must too.

    People in positions of responsibility and authority need to play by the book if they demand other do. The most crucial aspect of ‘leadership’ is setting examples and leading by them...


    Thats nice..
    But its not reality..


    Many supervisors and middle managers are implementing what is being handed down from above be that good or a total shiitshow.


    I've intentionally moved away from multinationals for this reason and manage elsewhere in the economy now...


    I pushed back against unfair practice in the workplace like this and at a meeting where employees were being selected to be disciplined or managed out I was politely told "its them or its you". Thats when I kicked in my exit strategy..


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    #52
    Strumms
    Registered Users Posts: 24,806 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    _Brian wrote: »
    Thats nice..
    But its not reality..


    Many supervisors and middle managers are implementing what is being handed down from above be that good or a total shiitshow.


    I've intentionally moved away from multinationals for this reason and manage elsewhere in the economy now...


    I pushed back against unfair practice in the workplace like this and at a meeting where employees were being selected to be disciplined or managed out I was politely told "its them or its you". Thats when I kicked in my exit strategy..

    Not reality in some cases...

    I had a boss that sent an email to all the office staff that we were not to leave or enter the facility by the storeroom door, caught on camera it’s a disciplinary, we had to swipe in at the designated staff entrance/exit.... it was handier to use the storeroom: as the storeroom was under our office and it saved time and indeed a long walk around the building via a barley lit slip road to the barley lit car park at 1am when we finished ... incidentally the door also had a swipe.

    Anyway day after day, people are doing as they are asked but noting this management dîckhead more often then not, ignoring his own rules and utilizing the shortcut to go on lunch or home or have a smoke. He was demanding we don’t use this door and threatening us with disciplinary.

    Lots of other stuff with him, a ‘do as I tell you, not as I do’ merchant.

    Those types of people drive you nuts in jobs. Leaders need to set the tone and lead by example.


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    #53
    spaceHopper
    Registered Users Posts: 3,966 ✭✭✭spaceHopper


    This makes no sense, she will only bring trouble on herself by putting it on the record with HR. Buy a diary, keep notes and contact your solicitor and have them witness then at time intervals so that there is a record of events or make notes and email them to her own personal account to have date stamps. HR knew about the redundancy threat and it was withdrawn when she called their bluff. If it comes up again get them to email her the reasons for the redundancy and details of the alternative role they are offering her. Also what terms are there for the actual redundancy. Get it in writing and take it then come back as contractor.


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    #54
    cannotlogin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,172 ✭✭✭cannotlogin


    Gervais08 wrote: »
    That’s not true. Yeah overall the company may be their overarching priority but enough people registered complaints about my manager that he went - for the good of the company sure, but we benefitted.

    I can never thank HR enough.

    Just on this. HR were still protecting the company rather than the employees. There must have been sufficient evidence that leaving the manager in unchallenged was the treat to the company. The employees mental health etc, is a secondary issue. He was removed because he was a risk for the company.


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