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Applying for an SNA

135

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 7,729 ✭✭✭Millem


    I've verbally stated he is leaving, i've put nothing in writing though. If i were to consider leaving him in preschool for a second year it would be purely on the basis to get his sibling into the creche in the same building, the relationship isn't great between them, myself and my wife, but location is ideal, not the first time we've used the service. A verbal agreement bears no weight. Is a parent not allowed to change their mind? i'm not saying i will, but if i did? I assume preschools want these things confirmed in writing?

    No idea? I would assume they would want it in writing. In our preschool we must give 30 days notice. Have you heard of anyone being offered places for next year yet?
    Is there any special school options or early intervention preschools? If you live a certain distance you will get free transport.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,553 ✭✭✭Cork Trucker


    Millem wrote: »
    No idea? I would assume they would want it in writing. Have you heard of anyone being offered places for next year yet?
    Is there any special school options or early intervention preschools? If you live a certain distance you will get free transport.

    The current preschool want me out, i'm fighting it though, there's a special school in Bishopstown alright, St Gabriels is it? If you aren't from Cork then i apologise.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,729 ✭✭✭Millem


    The current preschool want me out, i'm fighting it though, there's a special school in Bishopstown alright, St Gabriels is it? If you aren't from Cork then i apologise.

    No not from Cork! I would look at all options.
    Personally I wouldn’t want to use a service where my child is not wanted. Inclusion is not just offering a space.
    I have seen it in my own school where I work :(

    My own experience of special needs school have been very positive. I have worked in one, have a relation attending one and now work in a mainstream school that has an ASD unit.

    Obviously every child is different but for my own relation I was in favour of the special school. The ratio is much smaller for starters, he also has a spot until he is 18 if needs be.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,175 ✭✭✭✭fits


    I have twins - one with additional needs and one typical who are 3. They will be four in December. We are in first year of early intervention preschool with potential to do two more. Other twin was eligible to start ecce in September but was very young so he will only get 1 free year. I don’t even want to start him in primary when he is 4 years 8 months.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,447 ✭✭✭Calhoun


    Millem wrote: »
    No not from Cork! I would look at all options.
    Personally I wouldn’t want to use a service where my child is not wanted. Inclusion is not just offering a space.
    I have seen it in my own school where I work :(

    My own experience of special needs school have been very positive. I have worked in one, have a relation attending one and now work in a mainstream school that has an ASD unit.

    Obviously every child is different but for my own relation I was in favour of the special school. The ratio is much smaller for starters, he also has a spot until he is 18 if needs be.

    Simple question is where do we put them? And why should we allow any school or teachers get away with discrimination.

    Would we accept the same if it was a child who needed wheelchair facilities ?

    The special schools also have their flaws and just because they go up to 18 doesn't make them better. In allot of cases they are glorified teenager day centres and depending on the students can have streak of violence.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,729 ✭✭✭Millem


    Calhoun wrote: »
    Simple question is where do we put them? And why should we allow any school or teachers get away with discrimination.

    Would we accept the same if it was a child who needed wheelchair facilities ?

    The special schools also have their flaws and just because they go up to 18 doesn't make them better. In allot of cases they are glorified teenager day centres and depending on the students can have streak of violence.

    I think it a lot depends on the school in question. Not every school is the same.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,553 ✭✭✭Cork Trucker


    Calhoun wrote: »
    Simple question is where do we put them? And why should we allow any school or teachers get away with discrimination.

    Would we accept the same if it was a child who needed wheelchair facilities ?

    The special schools also have their flaws and just because they go up to 18 doesn't make them better. In allot of cases they are glorified teenager day centres and depending on the students can have streak of violence.

    There is gender discrimination going on at the moment towards me in the preschool, i made some comments, not pleasant but not crossing any lines,my wife did the same, now i've received a letter asking to voluntarily absent myself, my wife made comments far far worse and nothing. We have it all in writing as well from a chairperson who is never in the building and wasn't told all the facts, i've been threatened with legal action, in return i've made the same threat,have a solicitors appointment next week. Anyway i'm going off track here. The child has had over 12 accident report forms filled out since he started there, on one occasion they got his name wrong and put down the partner of one of the care workers as the child.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,447 ✭✭✭Calhoun


    Millem wrote: »
    I think it a lot depends on the school in question. Not every school is the same.

    Exactly which is why it's not for everyone. Unfortunately we don't even have enough schools so we have to send kids to mainstream so we don't have an option but to send them to places where it might not be so inclusive.

    The point I was trying to make though was why should we accept a school not been inclusive where do we draw the line?


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,447 ✭✭✭Calhoun


    There is gender discrimination going on at the moment towards me in the preschool, i made some comments, not pleasant but not crossing any lines,my wife did the same, now i've received a letter asking to voluntarily absent myself, my wife made comments far far worse and nothing. We have it all in writing as well from a chairperson who is never in the building and wasn't told all the facts, i've been threatened with legal action, in return i've made the same threat,have a solicitors appointment next week. Anyway i'm going off track here. The child has had over 12 accident report forms filled out since he started there, on one occasion they got his name wrong and put down the partner of one of the care workers as the child.

    Just be careful how you act , don't give them a reason like be polite but firm, as they can and will use anything to discredit you in a court case.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,729 ✭✭✭Millem


    Calhoun wrote: »
    Exactly which is why it's not for everyone. Unfortunately we don't even have enough schools so we have to send kids to mainstream so we don't have an option but to send them to places where it might not be so inclusive.

    The point I was trying to make though was why should we accept a school not been inclusive where do we draw the line?

    Not all schools mainstream or special needs are the same. I as a parent would explore all options. I can only speak for my experience from 3 special schools which have been very positive.

    In the case of the OP the child is only turning 4 on the first day of school. Realistically they have another 2 years before they need to go to primary school.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 692 ✭✭✭glack


    As a teacher, I strongly recommend you wait until the child is 5. I would recommend this to any parent but particularly for a child with special needs where research shows being older sets them up for more success. Beginning school is an extremely challenging time for all children. And while preschool is invaluable, it really doesn’t compare to school. From almost day 1, the demands placed on children in school are way different. In school, there is much higher expectations regarding behaviour, sitting down, learning, playing with the toys allocated and not just whatever type of toy they want etc. Even things like toileting, eating lunch, putting on and off their own coats, yard time and so on are bigger issues the younger the child is. A just turned 4 year old will be at a huge disadvantage to their classmates.

    You mention your child is non verbal, how will they communicate with the teacher? Is your child used to using visual cues for things like requesting to use the toilet?

    What are the child’s other issues? Every child with ASD is completely different so I don’t like to make assumptions but you need to be realistic with regards to your expectations and whether or not they will be ready for the challenges of a mainstream classroom at this stage.

    I’ve had a student in junior infants in the past who was 2 years waiting to get access to an SNA and due to their behaviour and huge safety issues had to go home at 10.30 every day until they got that access. Even now, with the support, this child is really struggling with mainstream education. It is highly unlikely that you will get full time support for your child in place for September. And it’s also hugely unlikely that the class teacher will be able to manage your child in addition to 20 others without help.

    Your willingness to fight for your child is admirable. But sending him to school due to issues in preschool will just create issues in school. If mainstream is your preference (which is your right as their parent) really think through the consequences. Be honest with yourself - what is the best placement for my child? Where will they get the skills they need to succeed?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,553 ✭✭✭Cork Trucker


    Calhoun wrote: »
    Just be careful how you act , don't give them a reason like be polite but firm, as they can and will use anything to discredit you in a court case.

    They are already using what they can against me plus more (false stuff).


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,175 ✭✭✭✭fits


    They are already using what they can against me plus more (false stuff).

    This isn’t about you. It’s about what is best for your child. Find another preschool.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,553 ✭✭✭Cork Trucker


    fits wrote: »
    This isn’t about you. It’s about what is best for your child. Find another preschool.

    The issue with the preschool has come down to it being about me, your opinion is not wanted or welcome by me if that is your attitude. As for your advice, i'll decline.


  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    The issue with the preschool has come down to it being about me, your opinion is not wanted or welcome by me if that is your attitude. As for your advice, i'll decline.

    Unfortunately this is exactly what has happened ,

    When dealing with any kind of situation with preschool or primary schools bull in the China shop will get you nowhere,you will be seen as being aggressive and threating towards staff and it's always zero tolerance policies in place ,this comes from both a dad of a child with extra needs and a professional in an educational setting ,
    Everyone needs to be on the same page and working in partnership with yourselfs and you's with services ,

    Getting frustrated and angry at staff will see you removed from situation making things ten times worse ,
    Preschools and schools protect their staff first and foremost


  • Registered Users Posts: 692 ✭✭✭glack


    Gatling wrote: »
    Unfortunately this is exactly what has happened ,

    When dealing with any kind of situation with preschool or primary schools bull in the China shop will get you nowhere,you will be seen as being aggressive and threating towards staff and it's always zero tolerance policies in place ,this comes from both a dad of a child with extra needs and a professional in an educational setting ,
    Everyone needs to be on the same page and working in partnership with yourselfs and you's with services ,

    Getting frustrated and angry at staff will see you removed from situation making things ten times worse ,
    Preschools and schools protect their staff first and foremost

    Agree completely.

    It also often happens with parents of children with SEN whereby they are so used to having to fight for the services their child needs that they can sometimes treat every professional who disagrees with their opinions as having it in for them/their child. This, in my experience, comes from years of banging their heads against a wall trying to get the assessments and therapy their child so desperately needs.

    OP, you are in a ridiculously difficult situation but try and keep an open mind - in most cases schools just want what is best for the children in their care. If they are telling you not to send your child at barely 4 years of age, try and listen to their arguments. They are speaking from years of experience. Additionally as mentioned above, going in arguing is likely to prove detrimental to your relationship with the school. You will have to work together for 8 years-try and think of the long term.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,447 ✭✭✭Calhoun


    Millem wrote: »
    Not all schools mainstream or special needs are the same. I as a parent would explore all options. I can only speak for my experience from 3 special schools which have been very positive.

    In the case of the OP the child is only turning 4 on the first day of school. Realistically they have another 2 years before they need to go to primary school.

    Exactly not all are the same, and I would explore all options but regardless of a child's age I would not be put off by a school that wasn't so friendly as I have said above sometimes there arent allot of options.

    Regarding this case there are possibly other options, I personally wouldn't send my child just at the age of 4 but I appreciate the frustration due to lack of support.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,553 ✭✭✭Cork Trucker


    Gatling wrote: »
    Unfortunately this is exactly what has happened ,

    When dealing with any kind of situation with preschool or primary schools bull in the China shop will get you nowhere,you will be seen as being aggressive and threating towards staff and it's always zero tolerance policies in place ,this comes from both a dad of a child with extra needs and a professional in an educational setting ,
    Everyone needs to be on the same page and working in partnership with yourselfs and you's with services ,

    Getting frustrated and angry at staff will see you removed from situation making things ten times worse ,
    Preschools and schools protect their staff first and foremost

    I’m not removed from the situation but things are fairly bad. The exaggeration from staff on my behaviour is surprising as well, my wife is more vocal towards them than I.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,553 ✭✭✭Cork Trucker


    Calhoun wrote: »
    Exactly not all are the same, and I would explore all options but regardless of a child's age I would not be put off by a school that wasn't so friendly as I have said above sometimes there arent allot of options.

    Regarding this case there are possibly other options, I personally wouldn't send my child just at the age of 4 but I appreciate the frustration due to lack of support.

    Lack of support is crazy. Yet if you earn €1 over an income threshold the medical card is gone.


  • Registered Users Posts: 692 ✭✭✭glack


    I’m not removed from the situation but things are fairly bad. The exaggeration from staff on my behaviour is surprising as well, my wife is more vocal towards them than I.

    I’ve seen this happen too! Totally unfair. Can a father not get annoyed without it being twisted into intimidation?

    Have they any plan in place to support your child to the end of the year? Reading through the lines seems like you have valid reason to be frustrated.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,553 ✭✭✭Cork Trucker


    glack wrote: »
    Agree completely.

    It also often happens with parents of children with SEN whereby they are so used to having to fight for the services their child needs that they can sometimes treat every professional who disagrees with their opinions as having it in for them/their child. This, in my experience, comes from years of banging their heads against a wall trying to get the assessments and therapy their child so desperately needs.

    OP, you are in a ridiculously difficult situation but try and keep an open mind - in most cases schools just want what is best for the children in their care. If they are telling you not to send your child at barely 4 years of age, try and listen to their arguments. They are speaking from years of experience. Additionally as mentioned above, going in arguing is likely to prove detrimental to your relationship with the school. You will have to work together for 8 years-try and think of the long term.

    What would you say to someone like myself if I turned up on the first day of junior infants with My child in his position? Bare in mind the school have been aware of his diagnosis and have reports since September 1st 2019. Yes a full year in advance. The preschool have said with SNA assistance he is ready. They have issued reports also which have been produced to the school.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,553 ✭✭✭Cork Trucker


    glack wrote: »
    I’ve seen this happen too! Totally unfair. Can a father not get annoyed without it being twisted into intimidation?

    Have they any plan in place to support your child to the end of the year? Reading through the lines seems like you have valid reason to be frustrated.

    The lady from AIM’s makes appointments to meet staff, but not me, every 3 months as it’s only mentoring. I am frustrated but to say that I’m intimidating women is disgusting. Their chairperson should have been a politician such are the lies and spin.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,447 ✭✭✭Calhoun


    glack wrote: »
    Agree completely.

    It also often happens with parents of children with SEN whereby they are so used to having to fight for the services their child needs that they can sometimes treat every professional who disagrees with their opinions as having it in for them/their child. This, in my experience, comes from years of banging their heads against a wall trying to get the assessments and therapy their child so desperately needs.

    You also have to look at it from the other side of the fence, each school is different as we have established and there are teachers and principals who just want you out of their hair. There is a statutory obligation to provide and education on a social and academic level which doesn't seem to be appreciated.

    For my daughter's school we had the SEN teacher pull the won't you think of the other children in the class stick. Before moving on to make the resourcing problem my wife and I.

    We actually caught them out in a lie they told about getting a sensory room or even an asd class. Apparently it was impossible and the SENO was against it but he actually was gagging to out not one but two in place.

    It's almost like a level of institutional discrimination that your dealing with, you get a bang of out of sight out of mind which is not nice when your talking about vulnerable children.


  • Registered Users Posts: 692 ✭✭✭glack


    What would you say to someone like myself if I turned up on the first day of junior infants with My child in his position? Bare in mind the school have been aware of his diagnosis and have reports since September 1st 2019. Yes a full year in advance. The preschool have said with SNA assistance he is ready. They have issued reports also which have been produced to the school.

    From the school point of view, there’s nothing they could have done yet. The system is changing this year apparently (no circular issued yet though) which could go either way in your case. SNAs will be issued to the school on the basis of their profile rather than on the basis of how many children they currently have with a diagnosis. However, schools as yet are completely in the dark as to how it would work. They will have no idea what their allocation is likely to be yet or if they will get extra to support your child should they start in September. Prepare yourself for the likelihood that even if the school does everything in their power to support you, it is incredibly difficult to get a guarantee of support in advance of the child actually starting school. We’re all completely in the dark as of yet-keep an eye on the department of educations twitter-they post all new circulars when issued. March is when it’s expected. The lack of a government may hold this up.

    Should your child start without support, it could be extremely difficult for the teacher to educate your child particularly as they are non verbal. Without knowing what other needs your child has, it’s hard to know how it will go. Can they put their coat on unaided, take a lunch out of their school bag and eat unaided? How about toileting? Can they follow instructions? Are they likely to be a flight risk - as in running out the classroom door? Will they wander around the room attempting to play with toys etc when they should be at their table? How are they with others? Some children with ASD don’t even notice other children while others struggle to give classmates personal space.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,553 ✭✭✭Cork Trucker


    glack wrote: »
    From the school point of view, there’s nothing they could have done yet. The system is changing this year apparently (no circular issued yet though) which could go either way in your case. SNAs will be issued to the school on the basis of their profile rather than on the basis of how many children they currently have with a diagnosis. However, schools as yet are completely in the dark as to how it would work. They will have no idea what their allocation is likely to be yet or if they will get extra to support your child should they start in September. Prepare yourself for the likelihood that even if the school does everything in their power to support you, it is incredibly difficult to get a guarantee of support in advance of the child actually starting school. We’re all completely in the dark as of yet-keep an eye on the department of educations twitter-they post all new circulars when issued. March is when it’s expected. The lack of a government may hold this up.

    Should your child start without support, it could be extremely difficult for the teacher to educate your child particularly as they are non verbal. Without knowing what other needs your child has, it’s hard to know how it will go. Can they put their coat on unaided, take a lunch out of their school bag and eat unaided? How about toileting? Can they follow instructions? Are they likely to be a flight risk - as in running out the classroom door? Will they wander around the room attempting to play with toys etc when they should be at their table? How are they with others? Some children with ASD don’t even notice other children while others struggle to give classmates personal space.

    The SENO mentioned something about March alright, it’s a cut off date for applications or something.

    My child can take off his own jacket, can eat unassisted, isn’t toilet trained, is a flight risk. They can follow some but not many instructions. Doesn’t wander around the class that I know of. He mixes very well with other children and will sit next to them,


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,447 ✭✭✭Calhoun


    The SENO mentioned something about March alright, it’s a cut off date for applications or something.

    My child can take off his own jacket, can eat unassisted, isn’t toilet trained, is a flight risk. They can follow some but not many instructions. Doesn’t wander around the class that I know of. He mixes very well with other children and will sit next to them,

    Technically none of this is actually your problem, if he is accepted into the school that is.

    Its up to the school and the SENO's to make sure that your child is adequately resourced. Just because there is a new system in place doesn't mean that it necessarily becomes the parents problem. This is probably where your solicitor will have a case if he has already been accepted.

    Now what you wont get is a dedicated SNA but if he has additional needs you could expect those to be met.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,553 ✭✭✭Cork Trucker


    Calhoun wrote: »
    Technically none of this is actually your problem, if he is accepted into the school that is.

    Its up to the school and the SENO's to make sure that your child is adequately resourced. Just because there is a new system in place doesn't mean that it necessarily becomes the parents problem. This is probably where your solicitor will have a case if he has already been accepted.

    Now what you wont get is a dedicated SNA but if he has additional needs you could expect those to be met.

    They’ve stated they cannot refuse him as 4 is the earliest legal age to begin. Toileting is bit mastered but he will never do a number 2 unless me or his mother is around. Never once done it in crèche, same with preschool


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,832 ✭✭✭heldel00


    ^^^ but technically if he gets 30 mins of 'access' to SNA then that could be considered needs being met.
    I had 5 children in my class two years ago with different additional needs and we had access to SNA for 1 hour 10 min in the morning. That was it. Their needs were definitely not being met.
    And from what i hear things are going to be even worse from this Sept


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,447 ✭✭✭Calhoun


    If the needs arent being met that will then be for the courts to decide, depending on how it plays out between the schools, SENO and parents.

    If the needs aren't being met and the child becomes a disruption to the overall process anyone engaged in legal proceeding will be pushing for reports from Tusla, NCSE and a psychologist amongst other things. The school and SENO will be forced to go the long way around on it.

    I feel sorry for some parents, as they will be pressured by the principals and SEN teachers to just remove children without adequate backup in place.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,553 ✭✭✭Cork Trucker


    heldel00 wrote: »
    ^^^ but technically if he gets 30 mins of 'access' to SNA then that could be considered needs being met.
    I had 5 children in my class two years ago with different additional needs and we had access to SNA for 1 hour 10 min in the morning. That was it. Their needs were definitely not being met.
    And from what i hear things are going to be even worse from this Sept

    In your school they’ll be worse next September?


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