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Claire Byrne show. Her name was Clodagh

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    #182
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »
    Whatever was wrong with him, I assume that by 'pure evil' people are referring to him being a psychopath.

    Psychopathy is a mental disorder too. There is no point in us trying to read the tea leaves here, but it is difficult to think about this horrific case and not come back to some dodgy neurochemical origins.

    I've never heard of a psychopath kill themselves. There's nothing in it for them.


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    #183
    freshpopcorn
    Registered Users Posts: 30,183 ✭✭✭✭freshpopcorn


    tretorn wrote: »
    I
    If porn was accessible on the school computers too then why werent they properly secured. Does this mean that other teachers are accessing pornography while sitting in front of young children too and they wont be caught unless someone walks in on them. Isnt this a major security issue.

    School computers are generally secured but some people figure they way around the security settings.


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    #184
    freshpopcorn
    Registered Users Posts: 30,183 ✭✭✭✭freshpopcorn


    Lollipops23 wrote: »
    My OH would be driven to distraction listening to myself and my mother yammer away. He even leaves the room when we're on the phone to one another!

    It also sounds like he locked Clodagh down marriage-wise very very fast. They'd only just finished college when they were married, we're talking in the mid-late 90s at most. It would have been pretty unusual unless they were particularly religious (I don't get the impression they were particularly).

    I did get the impression from reading an article that they may have being a little more religious than some.
    Another thing to bear in mind it's often a priest that does the interviewing and is on the BOM in schools and it looks good to be married.( I still even hear of people getting engaged/married when they are going for a job locally)


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    #185
    Marengo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,544 ✭✭✭Marengo


    Reading some of the posts here we may aswell say poor Adolf Hitler, poor Josef Stalin, because they had abusive fathers it left them predisposed to mental illness on the severe end of the spectrum. They weren't evil but we like old fashioned notions, cosy notions like evil, which are about as relevant as the concept of God.

    Doesn't the above sound like modern psychobabble BS? Fcuk it he was a bad bastard.


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    #186
    iamwhoiam
    Registered Users Posts: 16,072 ✭✭✭✭iamwhoiam


    Marengo wrote: »
    Reading some of the posts here we may aswell say poor Adolf Hitler, poor Josef Stalin, because they had abusive fathers it left them predisposed to mental illness on the severe end of the spectrum. They weren't evil but we like old fashioned notions, cosy notions like evil, which are about as relevant as the concept of God.

    Doesn't the above sound like modern psychobabble BS? Fcuk it he was a bad bastard.

    Not one single post actually said poor Alan Hawe


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    #187
    strandroad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,676 ✭✭✭strandroad


    professore wrote: »
    I've never heard of a psychopath kill themselves. There's nothing in it for them.

    An extreme narcissist would; they can't bear to lose their reputation and social standing like Hawe was about to. And they consider other lives to be inferior to theirs so they would take them too if the had them in their control. Their ego is superior to everything else in the world.


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    #188
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    Marengo wrote: »
    Reading some of the posts here we may aswell say poor Adolf Hitler, poor Josef Stalin, because they had abusive fathers it left them predisposed to mental illness on the severe end of the spectrum. They weren't evil but we like old fashioned notions, cosy notions like evil, which are about as relevant as the concept of God.

    Doesn't the above sound like modern psychobabble BS? Fcuk it he was a bad bastard.

    No one is saying that. What I'm trying to understand, as many others are, is that how we stop stuff like this happening in future, or at least recognise the signs. Saying he was an evil bastard is all well and good but it doesn't help you, when realistically loads of people thought he was a "lovely fellow".

    People are fantastic in hindsight when stuff like this happens "I always knew there was something off" BS. What we need is foresight.

    Adolf Hitler only killed himself when he was in imminent danger of being captured and tortured by the Russians. Stalin never killed himself, as did no psycho leader ever in the history of the world.


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    #189
    Marengo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,544 ✭✭✭Marengo


    iamwhoiam wrote: »
    Not one single post actually said poor Alan Hawe

    No but the tone which dismisses the concept of evil as somehow old fashioned in this day of science when we can label something with a nice 'mental' illness tag. I wasn't quoting literally.


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    #190
    freshpopcorn
    Registered Users Posts: 30,183 ✭✭✭✭freshpopcorn


    Regarding what happened in the school.
    None of us what happened.
    The incident may have being minor or it may have being something that got blown out proportion.
    The person may have reported the incident or not.
    It could have happened in June or during July and August. He was a bice principal and a lot of them have business in the school during the Summer.


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    #191
    Marengo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,544 ✭✭✭Marengo


    professore wrote: »
    No one is saying that. What I'm trying to understand, as many others are, is that how we stop stuff like this happening in future, or at least recognise the signs. Saying he was an evil bastard is all well and good but it doesn't help you, when realistically loads of people thought he was a "lovely fellow".

    People are fantastic in hindsight when stuff like this happens "I always knew there was something off" BS. What we need is foresight.

    Evil can be well hidden i'm saying. It shouldn't be lumped in with mental illnesses because people associated good and evil with deity etc and therefore it's a no, no to say evil bastard.

    Some want some pie in the sky psychological explanation rather than the simple ones of good and evil.


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    #192
    strandroad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,676 ✭✭✭strandroad


    professore wrote: »
    No one is saying that. What I'm trying to understand, as many others are, is that how we stop stuff like this happening in future, or at least recognise the signs. Saying he was an evil bastard is all well and good but it doesn't help you, when realistically loads of people thought he was a "lovely fellow".

    People are fantastic in hindsight when stuff like this happens "I always knew there was something off" BS. What we need is foresight.

    There is a lot of ground between "unexplained evil" and "mental illlness", for example personality disorders. Narcissism or sociopathy are not in the mental health domain but they are sufficient to explain Hawe's actions in the light of his impending downfall.


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    #193
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    Marengo wrote: »
    Evil can be well hidden i'm saying. It shouldn't be lumped in with mental illnesses because people associated good and evil with deity etc and therefore it's a no, no to say evil bastard.

    Some want some pie in the sky psychological explanation rather than the simple ones of good and evil.

    I agree there is evil - of course there is. However calling this guy evil may not be accurate. The fact he killed himself doesn't fit the "evil" description. Evil people do evil to benefit themselves, or for pure enjoyment. I can't for the life of me see how either of those things fit with killing yourself. That's all I am saying.


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    #194
    Marengo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,544 ✭✭✭Marengo


    professore wrote: »
    I agree there is evil - of course there is. However calling this guy evil may not be accurate. The fact he killed himself doesn't fit the "evil" description. Evil people do evil to benefit themselves, or for pure enjoyment. I can't for the life of me see how either of those things fit with killing yourself. That's all I am saying.

    Why doesn't it? Evil consumes others and consumes itself when it sees no way out. Hitler for example killed himself. Killing himself was the easiest option for this fella rather than face the music.. Whatever it was, sacked from his job, no longer a pillar in the community etc.


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    #195
    MintyMagnum
    Registered Users Posts: 473 ✭✭MintyMagnum


    professore wrote: »
    I agree there is evil - of course there is. However calling this guy evil may not be accurate. The fact he killed himself doesn't fit the "evil" description. Evil people do evil to benefit themselves, or for pure enjoyment. I can't for the life of me see how either of those things fit with killing yourself. That's all I am saying.

    He killed his family because they would find out the truth about him whatever that is. And obviously he had to kill himself after that. This way he would not face consequences of his actions. That's how he 'benefitted'. He also has benefitted it seems in that no one else in the wider circle has discovered his 'secret'.


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    #196
    ceadaoin.
    Registered Users Posts: 8,094 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    professore wrote: »
    I agree there is evil - of course there is. However calling this guy evil may not be accurate. The fact he killed himself doesn't fit the "evil" description. Evil people do evil to benefit themselves, or for pure enjoyment. I can't for the life of me see how either of those things fit with killing yourself. That's all I am saying.

    Because he was a also a coward and didn't want to face up to the consequences of his own actions.


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    #197
    Rubberchikken
    Registered Users Posts: 5,083 ✭✭✭Rubberchikken


    l think narcissism goes hand in hand with cowardice.
    the ability or want of this man to control every aspect of his execution of his family down to who'd get the jewellery, note on front door etc is frightening.
    how a person like this remains in employment has a family and effectively deceives all around him shows how clever and manipulative people like this are.

    i dont know if evil is the correct description.
    his behaviour in moving furniture, killing his wife, sitting down to write his pathetic self absorbed excuses and then killing his children seems very coldly thought out but only thinking of himself the whole time.


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    #198
    Hoboo
    Registered Users Posts: 3,517 ✭✭✭Hoboo


    shenanagans wrote: »
    If he was mentally ill those 4 people had no chance. But I seriously believe they would be alive today if that animal hadn't been caught doing whatever he was doing in school.

    Shame, embarrassment, control, weakness were what caused their deaths not mental health (depression).

    Shame, embarrassment, control, weakness are all symptoms of various mental health issues. For anyone to do what he did for any of those examples requires some level of mental instability (not just depression, they aren't one and the same)

    I didn't meet the man, speak to his GP, counsellor, school, gardai, so what happened or why is completely a guess for anyone.

    The post I was agreeing with was that it wasn't 'evil' or 'the monster' that caused this. It was an unstable mind of some sort. 'Evil' is just a simple way to explain things like this when one can't comprehend why (due to lack of understanding), instead of examining the real reason, and what we could do to prevent it in the future. Head in the sand stuff.


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    #199
    iamwhoiam
    Registered Users Posts: 16,072 ✭✭✭✭iamwhoiam


    professore wrote: »
    I agree there is evil - of course there is. However calling this guy evil may not be accurate. The fact he killed himself doesn't fit the "evil" description. Evil people do evil to benefit themselves, or for pure enjoyment. I can't for the life of me see how either of those things fit with killing yourself. That's all I am saying.

    Many evil Nazis killed themselves . Because not only were they sadistic evil people they were also cowards


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    #200
    tretorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,800 ✭✭✭tretorn


    He was a teacher though so basically on his own for most of the day with children.

    There are plenty of really strange teachers who wouldnt be able to function in a normal working environment, they are left in the teaching profession until retirement and given a new class every year so their failure to be able to do their job doesnt cause too much of an impact. Its absolutely impossible to get rid of poorly performing teachers too though this does appear to be changing very slowly.

    Teachers are also drawn to the job because of love and devotion to the GAA, lots of time off to devote to the GAA and being a member of this organisation gives you kudos in small towns and the edge when it comes to promotion, ie how many male teachers are there and how many male principals, very few male teachers but lots of male principals.


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    #201
    retro:electro
    Registered Users Posts: 21,039 ✭✭✭✭retro:electro


    Rubberchikken wrote: »
    l think narcissism goes hand in hand with cowardice.
    the ability or want of this man to control every aspect of his execution of his family down to who'd get the jewellery, note on front door etc is frightening.
    how a person like this remains in employment has a family and effectively deceives all around him shows how clever and manipulative people like this are.

    i dont know if evil is the correct description.
    his behaviour in moving furniture, killing his wife, sitting down to write his pathetic self absorbed excuses and then killing his children seems very coldly thought out but only thinking of himself the whole time.

    And a narcissist would rather you remain hurt and punished for the remainder of your life than face up to the consequences of their own actions. If I had to fathom a guess I’d wager due to his catastrophising and calculated control of things from months prior, that it’s likely he had slipped into some level of psychosis, leading him to cancel his counselling sessions and just meticulously plan the end.

    There didn’t seem to be any obvious warning signs beyond him being his usual oppressive self, nothing out of the ordinary was reported but I do believe his hugs with the mam, stating aloud how he was dreading work, and his five page ode to himself was all about controlling the narrative in the aftermath. He was after a sympathetic portrayal and that’s what he got for a while afterwards anyway, thankfully now we all know the truth.


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    #202
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    iamwhoiam wrote: »
    Many evil Nazis killed themselves . Because not only were they sadistic evil people they were also cowards

    Actually you're right ... some even killed their whole families. I'd forgotten about the Goebbels family suicide, very different than this one in that Goebbels wife had an active part in it
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/6274396/Court-papers-shed-light-on-killing-of-Goebbels-children.html


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    #203
    freshpopcorn
    Registered Users Posts: 30,183 ✭✭✭✭freshpopcorn


    tretorn wrote: »
    He was a teacher though so basically on his own for most of the day with children.

    There are plenty of really strange teachers who wouldnt be able to function in a normal working environment, they are left in the teaching profession until retirement and given a new class every year so their failure to be able to do their job doesnt cause too much of an impact. Its absolutely impossible to get rid of poorly performing teachers too though this does appear to be changing very slowly.

    Teachers are also drawn to the job because of love and devotion to the GAA, lots of time off to devote to the GAA and being a member of this organisation gives you kudos in small towns and the edge when it comes to promotion, ie how many male teachers are there and how many male principals, very few male teachers but lots of male principals.

    Whilst I agree in places with what your saying it's hard to get rid of poorly performing teaching things are changing.
    The teachers I know who coach GAA do it for the kids and love of sport. They do it After school and during lunch breaks and when there is a match buses have to have organised/Jersey washed by teachers/etc.. You've to bring a group of kids somewhere strange and make sure they all get back. It's hardly time off.


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    #204
    jos28
    Registered Users Posts: 7,189 ✭✭✭jos28


    We could be here forever discussing the 'Mad or Bad' argument but that was not the point of the documentary. Something was happening in Alan Hawe's professional and or personal life outside the home. The details of this have not been disclosed to Clodagh's family and they should be. Someone, somewhere knows what was going on and that information should not be withheld.


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    #205
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    tretorn wrote: »
    There are plenty of really strange teachers who wouldnt be able to function in a normal working environment, they are left in the teaching profession until retirement and given a new class every year so their failure to be able to do their job doesnt cause too much of an impact. Its absolutely impossible to get rid of poorly performing teachers too though this does appear to be changing very slowly.

    Another disgrace and actively encouraging weird behaviour. We really need the ability to fire public sector workers and strip them of all pension rights in situations like this.


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    #206
    Steer55
    Closed Accounts Posts: 226 ✭✭Steer55


    Truly hope the truth will come out and the family will get some closure in this terrible deed that has befallen them.


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    #207
    lalababa
    Registered Users Posts: 1,726 ✭✭✭lalababa


    LETHAL LADY wrote: »
    Windgap, Co. Kilkenny. Know the area well but never heard a paedophile ring story relating to it. Like all areas, there's good and bad people living there.

    Windgap that's it. Yea a localish woman told me that there was something wrong there.


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    #208
    Mrsmum
    Registered Users Posts: 1,860 ✭✭✭Mrsmum


    Just a question I'm wondering about - if a person discloses unsettling thoughts to a doctor, counsellor etc, is that confidential or is the professional supposed/allowed to tell the family or persons that could be in danger ?


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    #209
    iamwhoiam
    Registered Users Posts: 16,072 ✭✭✭✭iamwhoiam


    Mrsmum wrote: »
    Just a question I'm wondering about - if a person discloses unsettling thoughts to a doctor, counsellor etc, is that confidential or is the professional supposed/allowed to tell the family or persons that could be in danger ?

    Una Butler whos two little girls were killed by their father has campaigned that that information should be passed on to the family . Her husband was attending a GP and it was not passed on to Una

    https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/mother-who-lost-husband-and-children-appeals-for-society-not-to-sweep-murder-suicide-under-the-carpet-786487.html



    "I called for a detailed investigation into his treatment from the HSE and also wanted the Mental Health Act 2001 to be amended to include spouses or partners in the treatment of the family member suffering with their mental health


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    #210
    donkeykong5
    Registered Users Posts: 7,259 ✭✭✭donkeykong5


    Hannibal_Smith wrote: »
    Is that really why he moved the money? Surely he knew they could see it was transferred after he killed her?

    I read something earlier that he didn't want to be buried...he asked to be cremated and his ashes thrown in the sea.
    Ashes should have been thrown in a slurry pit.


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    #211
    freshpopcorn
    Registered Users Posts: 30,183 ✭✭✭✭freshpopcorn


    iamwhoiam wrote: »
    Una Butler whos two little girls were killed by their father has campaigned that that information should be passed on to the family . Her husband was attending a GP and it was not passed on to Una

    https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/mother-who-lost-husband-and-children-appeals-for-society-not-to-sweep-murder-suicide-under-the-carpet-786487.html



    "I called for a detailed investigation into his treatment from the HSE and also wanted the Mental Health Act 2001 to be amended to include spouses or partners in the treatment of the family member suffering with their mental health

    Regarding what she is saying. It's every grey area in my opinion.
    Often when people speak about mental illness to a GP they are doing so in confidence(not to stress out their partner or family) or they maybe ina difficult situations at home.
    They are cases when family/social services may need to be contacted but it's important that it's done correctly.


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