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Plans to make cycle helmets compulsory in the North.

  • 16-08-2010 8:20pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    A £50 (€61.05) penalty may have to be paid by parents of young cyclists in the North who do not wear safety headgear, it was revealed today.

    It will only be a matter of time before this spreads down here or across the EU and made compullsory to all riders. It was introduced in Victoria Australia in 1991 and made federal two years later. Perhaps no harm but I could see this being a real headache for Dublin Bikes if it is to be introduced here. :p

    http://news.eircom.net/breakingnews/18424425/?view=Standard


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,991 ✭✭✭el tel


    This hare-brained scheme has been hatched by two SDLP twats from Derry who know fook all about cycling. I think that consensus has been sought from cycling clubs/bodies but as far as I can tell the opinion formed is that they can shove their legislation. Those against it seem to be far more vocal and informed than those nominally for it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,740 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    It will only be a matter of time before this spreads down here or across the EU and made compullsory to all riders. It was introduced in Victoria Australia in 1991 and made federal two years later. Perhaps no harm but I could see this being a real headache for Dublin Bikes if it is to be introduced here. :p

    I'm not sure it's inevitable. Australia also pioneered seat belt legislation, which spread globally very quickly, but cycle helmet laws haven't spread in the same way. The only country that has brought in an identical law is New Zealand.

    According to Wikipedia:
    The following countries have mandatory helmet laws, in at least one jurisdiction, for either minors only, or for all riders: Australia, Canada, Czech Republic, Finland, Iceland, Israel,[110] Slovakia, Sweden, USA, and New Zealand. Spain requires helmets on interurban routes.[111] In the U.S. 37 states have mandatory helmet laws,[112] and nearly 9 in 10 adults support helmet laws for children.[113] Israel's helmet law was never enforced or obeyed, and the adult element has been revoked; Mexico City has repealed its helmet law.[114]

    The European Cycling Federation has positioned itself firmly against
    mandatory helmet laws.
    http://www.ecf.com/3500_1

    The only national cycling body in Europe that isn't hostile to MHLs is the Danish one, as far as I know.

    As for the bike-share schemes, Israel and Mexico both repealed or modified their MHLs so that the bike-share schemes could prosper.

    This business in Northern Ireland seems to be due to pressure from Headway, who perceive cycling on normal roads to be the greatest threat to head integrity that we face. They will certainly put a great deal of pressure on any government with Fine Gael in it. They will probably get a warm reception, but I still would not bet on all-age MHL here.


  • Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 75,158 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    Politicians in the North are unlikely to lose many votes over something like this, whereas down here they could. The lobbying that would almost certainly take place would, I suspect, kill any such proposals here.


  • Registered Users Posts: 31,008 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    A £50 (€61.05) penalty may have to be paid by parents of young cyclists in the North who do not wear safety headgear

    If there's one activity which genuinely requires protective headgear, it's parenting.

    Those little feckers can be really nasty.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Lumen wrote: »
    If there's one activity which genuinely requires protective headgear, it's parenting.

    Those little feckers can be really nasty.

    I never hit my kids.........

    ........except in self-defence!

    Smaller (and some larger kids) should be made wear helmets all the time - with velcro on the outside to make it easier to get them to stay in one place:)


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 671 ✭✭✭billy.fish


    No harm in it.

    Nothing gets my goat up more than daddy cycling along on a main road with kids and no lids on.

    Not an issue for me, wear one all the time. Get used to it for racing so it makes no difference for training.

    Issue with Dublin Bikes could be over looked i bet :/


  • Registered Users Posts: 326 ✭✭jimbo32123


    should be the law and fineable to everyone no matter of age or location, its essential in my view i came off the bike on a downhill around 2 years ago and banged my head on the crash barrier, it would be some mess only for the helmet...


  • Registered Users Posts: 31,008 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    billy.fish wrote: »
    Nothing gets my goat up more than daddy cycling along on a main road with kids and no lids on.

    Why? In my experience (of observing whilst driving) drivers give these unhelmeted convoys much more space.

    An impact with a car on a main road will almost certainly be fatal regardless of headwear.

    Also, the expression is "gets my goat" or "gets my hackles up". ;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 671 ✭✭✭billy.fish


    Not a case of getting hit by a car will kill you no matter what. Its a case of oodds. If you can go from100% of death to 95% of death thats a 5% less chance of death.

    I dont get the whole 'no lids' argument.


  • Registered Users Posts: 31,008 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    billy.fish wrote: »
    Not a case of getting hit by a car will kill you no matter what. Its a case of oodds. If you can go from100% of death to 95% of death thats a 5% less chance of death.

    I dont get the whole 'no lids' argument.

    The argument is that if you cycle without a helmet cars give you more space and you are more likely to be cautious.

    It's the difference between having a marginally lower risk of an accident (helmetless) compared to a marginally better accident outcome (helmeted).

    For cases where the accident risk is largely out of your control (e.g. racing) it makes complete sense to wear a helmet.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 671 ✭✭✭billy.fish


    Personally i dont think people give enoough room to a cyclist helmeted or not. So i dont see that side of the argument.

    I'll happily wear my lid racing/training and look scornfully at those who don't simple as.

    As a driver i make no more effort to move away from cyclists with helmets than i would those without. I give them ample room.


  • Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    billy.fish wrote: »
    Personally i dont think people give enoough room to a cyclist helmeted or not. So i dont see that side of the argument.
    A study has been done on it and found that drivers do drive closer to cyclists who are wearing helmets.

    There are more solid arguments in it too:

    Compulsory helmet wearing has been shown to reduce the number of cyclists on the road, either because they can't be bothered complying with the law, for fashion reasons, or because it gives the impression that cycling is more dangerous than it actually is.

    It has been shown that as the number of cyclists on the road increases, then the number of accidents proportionally decreases as motorists are more aware of cyclists and give them more due regard. Likewise as the number of cyclists decreases, the number of accidents shoots up.

    Thus, even if helmets do reduce the risk at an individual level, enacting compulsory helmet use will result in an increase in cyclist injuries and fatalities in general.

    Additionally, studies with children have shown that children who wear helmets are less risk-averse than those who don't. This is obviously because they feel more protected when wearing a helmet. Children who wear a helmet are *more* likely to end up injured than children who don't because they take greater risks.
    You can logically extend this to adults and an adult who wears a helmet is more likely to take risks than one who doesn't.

    Basically, compulsory helmet use would result in a whole pile of net losses for cycling in general. More people will be killed and injured.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    jimbo32123 wrote: »
    should be the law and fineable to everyone no matter of age or location, its essential in my view i came off the bike on a downhill around 2 years ago and banged my head on the crash barrier, it would be some mess only for the helmet...

    .....or let's ban hills and crash barriers.....

    ....given you're idea to make it compulsory regardless of age or location, would I need to be wearing my lid when I'm on the turbo.....

    And for clarity's sake I wear a helmet any time I'm on a bike out of the house - it's the compulsory element of any proposed law that I find objectionable.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 671 ✭✭✭billy.fish


    I do worry about you people sometimes.

    Goodbye.


  • Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    There's some sand over there billy, for you to bury your head in.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Look - there needs to be an evidence based approach to this.

    The evidence that helmets provide an additional protective effect is disputed, therefore the case for a compulsory helmet law has not been made.

    However, it has been conclusively shown that wearing a blond wig encourages motorists to give you more space, therefore we should agitate for all cyclists to be forced to wear blond wigs:)


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,881 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    Plenty of reports of kids getting strangled by helmet straps when playing in countries with mandatory helmet laws.


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,266 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    It will only be a matter of time before this spreads down here or across the EU and made compullsory to all riders. It was introduced in Victoria Australia in 1991 and made federal two years later. Perhaps no harm but I could see this being a real headache for Dublin Bikes if it is to be introduced here. :p

    It's a bit of a stretch to say that draft legislation from an obscure MLA will lead to Europe wide mandatory helmet use. Or do you know something about the influence of this political heavyweight that we don't.
    billy.fish wrote: »
    Not a case of getting hit by a car will kill you no matter what. Its a case of oodds. If you can go from100% of death to 95% of death thats a 5% less chance of death.

    I dont get the whole 'no lids' argument.

    Apply the logic that any legislation is warranted because of minimal risk reduction and you'll end up in some very strange places.


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,266 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Look - there needs to be an evidence based approach to this.

    There rarely is. It's usually emotive. Accidents are bad, helmets can reduce injuries in some circumstances, so let's make everyone wear one.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,893 ✭✭✭Canis Lupus


    I propose making a cycling suit out of tied together helmets. Should make me pretty much immune to all forms of danger except perhaps being shot at.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,740 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    Stark wrote: »
    Plenty of reports of kids getting strangled by helmet straps when playing in countries with mandatory helmet laws.
    The Cycling Federation in Copenhagen, who, as I mentioned above, is in a phase of promoting helmets strongly, encourage parents to remove helmets right away after cycling, presumably for this reason.

    I was wrong to state that they support MHLs. They don't, but they very strongly promote their use.

    EDIT: I read recently that another Scandinavian body is now of the opinion that children should not be left unsupervised if wearing helmets. Not sure who it was though. I think it may have been a children's charity.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Helmets for everybody everywhere.

    This website says that in the US, the main causes of acquired brain injury are:

    Falls (28%);
    Motor vehicle-traffic crashes (20%);
    Struck by/against events (19%); and
    Assaults (11%).

    Helmets for people going out drinking! Helmets for getting out of bed! It might be the wrong side! Helmets for everybody doing DIY! Helmets for all car users! Helmets in the bath and shower! Baths and showers are very dangerous places! Helmets for pedestrians! Helmets for anybody walking the streets! You may get assaulted!

    Research shows that helmets would benefit car drivers and passengers! Why are we not debating this?


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,458 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    The main cause for cyclists being killed is a HGV, until a helmet will incase your body that helmet is extremely unlikely to stop the HGV from crushing your body last time I checked.

    Making helmets compulsory is a very bad idea, it makes cycling seem more dangerous then it is and will only enforce that view which is often taken by non-cyclists


  • Registered Users Posts: 31,008 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Won't someone please think of the children?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,200 ✭✭✭manwithaplan


    Evolution will eventually take care of this. The thick-headed will prevail (as usual).


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Lumen wrote: »
    Won't someone please think of the children?

    And adults too!

    If adults don't follow Headway's "common sense" they should be all forced to do so.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    I propose making a cycling suit out of tied together helmets. Should make me pretty much immune to all forms of danger except perhaps being shot at.

    ..... and water melons

    Helmets are a good idea, but compulsion isn't. I wear a helmet, the kids wear them too unless it's races around the local roads with their mates!

    The most dangerous thing I've seen them attempt on a bike (jumping off the garage roof) wouldn't have had a better outcome if they'd been wearing a helmet.


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,266 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    I'm unsure as to the extent of what he's proposing. Is he saying that parents will be fined if kids ride a bike with stabilisers on the path without a helmet?


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,583 ✭✭✭✭tunney


    seamus wrote: »
    A study has been done on it and found that drivers do drive closer to cyclists who are wearing helmets.

    Reference.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    el tonto wrote: »
    I'm unsure as to the extent of what he's proposing. Is he saying that parents will be fined if kids ride a bike with stabilisers on the path without a helmet?

    No - they'll just be fined for letting their brats ride on the path - the road is the proper place for bikes - cyclists shouldn't be on the paths - start them young and in 20 years we'll see an end to the scourge of path cylcing cyclists.

    So what if we have a spike in the child mortality rates - there's already too many of us on the planet!


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