The real problem with Housing in Ireland

Kidchameleon · 05-12-2019 12:57pm

X111111111111 wrote: »

A few thousand? FG want to increase our population by at least a million. Irish people aren't having kids the way they used to due to a number of factors. It doesn't take a genius to figure out how dull our future looks if a political movement doesn't come forward and addresses this issue.

Importing non nationals is not the answer though, that only leads to an erosion of culture. One solution would be to stop encouraging women into the workplace, instead, encourage them to stay in the home raising children (where they are happiest anyway*). Ironically, households having two incomes increases the cost of purchasing a home as there is more money coming into each family. If we lived in a paradigm where there was only one income on average to each household, the cost of borrowing would be less - supply and demand.

Its all a big conspiracy by the elites, get women working thereby lowering the cost of labor. This is why feminism is funded by the large multinationals - it is in their interest to reduce costs.

All that being said, I think women should work if they want to, nothing should be stopping them of course, I think however that women prefer to raise children and men prefer to go out and get resources, it is natural and has been that way since the dawn of time. These preferences explain the "wage gap" which is not a wage gap, it is in face and earnings gap explained by looking at preferences between the sexes.

* very hard to find links to that. All of the searches I have done yield feminist inspired "statistics". I am basing my claim that women are happier in the home raising children on my own observations and common, rational sense.

_Brian · 05-12-2019 1:01pm

Snickers Man wrote: »

I find the thrust of this point of view pretty hard to take. Although it is a familiar one. "I'm not going to do this if you're going to tax me. I should be able to keep all the profits of my hard work (or my hard working piece of inanimate real estate) for myself."

We all think that. Everyone from Leona Hemsley, the notorious Queen of Mean who is famous for saying that "Taxes are for little people". As a "big person" she clearly felt she should not be so encumbered. But really what she was saying is that "taxes are for OTHER people" And everyone, from Hemsley to Niall Quinn to the People before Profit crowd firmly believes that.

Niall Quinn wants tax breaks for League of Ireland clubs to grow soccer. (We shouldn't have to pay tax. Some other sucker can do that.)

Paul Murphy et al don't want to pay for water charges (We shouldn't have to pay for treatment and delivery of an essential resource. Other, supposedly rich, suckers should have to pay for that.)

And now poor struggling put-upon property owners shouldn't have to pay tax on the income they receive for sitting on their arses and maybe unblocking the odd drain or putting up the odd shelf (or paying somebody else to do it--typically cash in hand of course, can't let the taxman know about that, hur, hur).

Get real!

A reasonable tax levy on the cash return of a property investment (ie the rent accruing from it) is perfectly justifiable. I would instead put a whopping punitive tax on perfectly viable housing stock that is just sitting there gathering rot. There is a house on my street, less than 30 years old that is in just that position because the poor put-upon landlord can't be bothered for reasons best known to himself to rent it out as he used to do.

He should be given a choice: pay x percent annual tax on the market value of the vacant house or y percent on the income accruing from the tenants rent where y is very much less than x.

But to say that he should have it both ways: no chance!

I’m not argui n against tax.

But one simple point.
The fact that the full mortgage repayments aren’t deductible before tax is just wrong.

I’m any other industry if I buy a €500k piece of equipment the full repayments on that piece of equipment is deducted before profits are taxed.

If you want more rental property in the market then landlords need to be fairly treated and they need to make a fair profit.

Balf · 05-12-2019 1:08pm

Deleted User wrote: »

the real problem with housing in ireland is everyone feeling like they should own a house

I'm not sure that's necessarily a problem, in and of itself.

Deleted User wrote: »

add that to the societal trait of treating property like the only possible store of wealth

This, I think, is the problem. Every property owner has a vested interest in constraining supply, so the value of their property is protected.

Constraining supply is a perfectly rational market outcome for a competitive market. And the only solution I can think of is a property tax that is so high it makes people not want their house to be valuable.

I think it does also make you wonder why regional locations are quite so hopeless at generating jobs. If the average price of a house in Dublin is €375,000 and the average price of a house in Leitrim or Longford is €140,000, then we're effectively saying you can save over €200,000 if you move to Longford.

And that huge saving, apparently, isn't enough to spark anything. For no obvious reason - Longford might be bland, but it's not the Gobi Desert. They have schools, shops and electricity (last time I checked), and I suspect you can get some kind of broadband in Longford town.

https://www.thejournal.ie/house-prices-increase-dublin-nationwide-4696800-Jun2019/

Chinasea · 05-12-2019 2:52pm

I feel under siege from some sort of force-fed relelentless homeless news feed/media bombardment. Yes I know there are genuine homeless, but I feel like the whole situation is to a certain extent manipulated.

Every second ad is some dodgy pseudo sad tale of homeless childers, starving and void of presents. How much are all these adverts costing. Every single raffle, collection box is for 'de homeless'. All other charities it seems have been shelved.

We are hardly Bangladesh. Our social welfare is extremely generous. Pay your way. Contribute and have some personal bloody responsibility. Help genuine cases, but stop the bull****. How is all this sustainable.

blanch152 · 05-12-2019 3:02pm

Chinasea wrote: »

I feel under siege from some sort of force-fed relelentless homeless news feed/media bombardment. Yes I know there are genuine homeless, but I feel like the whole situation is to a certain extent manipulated.

Every second ad is some dodgy pseudo sad tale of homeless childers, starving and void of presents. How much are all these adverts costing. Every single raffle, collection box is for 'de homeless'. All other charities it seems have been shelved.

We are hardly Bangladesh. Our social welfare is extremely generous. Pay your way. Contribute and have some personal bloody responsibility. Help genuine cases, but stop the bull****. How is all this sustainable.

The CEO of Peter McVerry Trust is paid over €100k, more than a TD.

Others like Threshold don't seem to publish their accounts on their websites. Neither do Simon Community Dublin.

Maybe I am missing them, but if I am, they are well hidden on their websites.

James Brown · 05-12-2019 3:04pm

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Not exactly. Why would someone care how much their house is worth if they do not plan on moving? It is a simple fact of life that (in general) people who do not work for their home do not appreciate it as much as those who do work for it. This lack of appreciation leads to (in general) lack of respect for ones neighbors, ones area etc. Take a walk around a private estate and then take a walk around a social estate. In the latter you will see burned out cars, rubbish, drinking, drugs etc that you would not see near as much of in a private estate.

If you have a situation where there is a mixture of social/private housing, then you get a kind of mixture of the two scenarios. Why should someone working hard to pay a mortgage have to put up with drinking/rubbish/drugs etc?

In conclusion, it is not just property values that concerns people, it is quality of life. Social housing inherently brings down the quality of life in every area it infests.

Like the vast majority you or your parents were likely housed in social housing. I've an estate near me. Use to be all social housing, now bar one or two it's private. One of these social housing inheritors is a FG TD no less and one who is fighting FG itself to stop formally 100% social housing land, up the road, becoming the FG version of housing, (percentage of social, some leased or bought by the LA, mostly private builds). Not because she thinks it should be more social housing, but because she wants more amenities for her neighborhood instead of houses. This all 20 minutes walk from Christchurch. Hardly the sticks.
In short, good working tax payers are in need of social housing, your critique is ignorant. The sad part is working tax payers sh*tting on lower income tax payers because they now own their formally social housing. Our society was built with social housing and it is being destroyed by the lack of social housing.

AlekSmart · 05-12-2019 9:02pm

Chinasea wrote: »

I feel under siege from some sort of force-fed relelentless homeless news feed/media bombardment. Yes I know there are genuine homeless, but I feel like the whole situation is to a certain extent manipulated.

Every second ad is some dodgy pseudo sad tale of homeless childers, starving and void of presents. How much are all these adverts costing. Every single raffle, collection box is for 'de homeless'. All other charities it seems have been shelved.

We are hardly Bangladesh. Our social welfare is extremely generous. Pay your way. Contribute and have some personal bloody responsibility. Help genuine cases, but stop the bull****. How is all this sustainable.

Pull up your drawbridge !

I found this article on todays Great Day of Protest to be .....well.......illuminating I suppose?

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/power-to-the-people-thousands-protest-against-homelessness-in-dublin-and-cork-38757237.html

One protester, who only wants to be identified as Martina (50s), rents a house she lives in with her daughter and her four-year-old granddaughter under the Housing Assistance Payment (HAP) scheme.

She said that she fears that her landlord will decide to sell her house, leaving her and her family homeless.

“I’m in a landlord’s accommodation and I do be terrified that he’s going to come along and say ‘I’m selling the house’.

“The place is freezing, he’s allowed away with murder and he’s getting so much rent.

“I’m with HAP now. I pay just a little under a hundred into his bank account every week, so he’s getting €1,300 off HAP and then I pay €100 a week,” she said.

Martina’s granddaughter, Melissa said: “Everything about the landlords is just for them. All the rights is in there court. There’s nothing for me ma to stay safe in her own home. She can’t even do up the house because she’s afraid that he’ll kick her out. He can just up and sell the house whenever he wants to.

“Her windows are thin, she’s mould all over the place and he’s like, ‘If I have to fix it I’ll just sell it.’ So she’s just sitting pup because she has nothing else to do, she can’t do nothing else,” she added.

Can anybody flesh out those figures....€100 per week and HAP paying €1,300 ?

Bangladesh may actually have a better way of doing things ?

James Brown · 05-12-2019 9:07pm

Deleted User wrote: »

the real problem with housing in ireland is everyone feeling like they should own a house

and worse, the significant numbers who feel entitled to own a free/subsidised house provided by the state

add that to the societal trait of treating property like the only possible store of wealth

shift that mentality or accept we'll stay where we are

I think it's more people working and couples working feel they should be able to afford rent and possibly save so they can buy at some point.
For the common or garden working tax payer owning your own home was the previously more commonly reachable goal of your entire working life.

Lowering the bar and then accusing people of entitlement shouldn't be accepted by the tax payer IMO.

Nobody has owned a free/subsidised house ever in the history of the state.

Huntergonzo · 05-12-2019 9:22pm

There are many reasons for people's problems around housing (never use the bullshít media term 'housing crisis', they love a good 'crisis', it gets attention). In my opinion here are some of the main reasons in no particular order:

1. Greed of developers (charging insane money for homes).
2. Greed of money lenders (lend more, earn more, crash and you'll be bailed out, how can they lose?)
3. Greed of people who think they are 'entitled' to a house payed for by the tax payers and bring as many children into the world as possible to act as bargaining chips (look no further than Margaret Cash).
4. The crash, no building = no homes, people were still having sex though, creating more people. More people + less homes = d'oh!
5. The Irish psyche that we need to buy our own houses.
6. Government for coming up with wishy washy solutions that favour the developers and lenders.
7. Probably most of all, the media and dreaded opposition politicians for absolutely flogging and riding this 'crisis' (there's that word again) to death under the guise of concern but purely and utterly for their own personal gains, ie greed.

James Brown · 05-12-2019 9:34pm

Believe me, if Michael Martin or Leo Varadkar couldn't afford to meet rent or save for a house there would be consensus that it was a crisis and within a fortnight major moves in policy would happen.

As it stands even government, rightly acknowledge it's a crisis.

Cash games the system. Means absolute zero in any housing crisis conversation.

Huntergonzo · 05-12-2019 10:06pm

No interest in media created terms whether the government 'acknowledges' them or not, period.

Margaret Cash is very relevant to the conversation, she's gaming the system like many others which puts extra pressure on people being housed.

Anyway the problem will never be fully solved but it will be eased over time, then the media will move on to next 'crisis' of interest, then the next and the next etc etc and so the cycle just keeps rolling on.

blanch152 · 06-12-2019 12:52am

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Nobody has owned a free/subsidised house ever in the history of the state.

Ultimate nonsense.

There are millions of people since the foundation of the State who have inherited a free house.

There are hundreds of thousands of people who have bought houses from local authorities on a subsidised basis.

How is this type of silly childish carelessness with facts allowed go on?

Idbatterim · 06-12-2019 1:16am

Sf proposing a rent freeze. I’d agree with this , in Dublin, the rents are obscene. The funds buying and building all these blocks are hardly going to stop wanting to make obscene money ... they’ll claim it may reduce new builds etc , I don’t buy it ...

https://www.thejournal.ie/sinn-fein-rent-freeze-motion-4920395-Dec2019/

It’s going to be harder and Harder for ff to remain the hurler on the ditch. Bitch about the housing crisis , but shoot down this sf proposal ,..

markodaly · 06-12-2019 1:25am

Rent Freezes in general do not work. The evidence is clear on that.

Sure it makes a good headline and nice 'feeelzzz' but in terms of evidence based policy to solve an issue, no, not the right way.

Idbatterim · 06-12-2019 1:27am

markodaly wrote: »

Rent Freezes in general do not work. The evidence is clear on that.

Sure it makes a good headline and nice 'feeelzzz' but in terms of evidence based policy to solve an issue, no, not the right way.

In what way don’t they work ?

Jinglejangle69 · 06-12-2019 1:33am

blanch152 wrote: »

Ultimate nonsense.

There are millions of people since the foundation of the State who have inherited a free house.

There are hundreds of thousands of people who have bought houses from local authorities on a subsidised basis.

How is this type of silly childish carelessness with facts allowed go on?

Makes you wonder.

Actually it doesn’t seems said poster was a former mod on boards.

Forces at work here that us plebs have no clue about.

KyussB · 06-12-2019 7:52am

markodaly wrote: »

Rent Freezes in general do not work. The evidence is clear on that.

Sure it makes a good headline and nice 'feeelzzz' but in terms of evidence based policy to solve an issue, no, not the right way.

Rent freezes work perfectly well at freezing rents. Their purpose isn't to solve the crisis - that requires separate policy (such as: the goverment directly hiring people to build multiple tens of thousands of houses a year, in a mix of for-profit and social housing - making it self-financing).

The chan chan man · 06-12-2019 8:00am

I’m involved as a designer in both private and public projects. The public projects are a joke as the departments and local authorities are so caught up in their own red tape that they get nothing done and cost everyone a fortune!

Any private developer that carried on like that would be out of business in a year! Its a lot easier to flute around when you have an endless pot of cash to dip into!

Huntergonzo · 06-12-2019 8:52am

Idbatterim wrote: »

Sf proposing a rent freeze. I’d agree with this , in Dublin, the rents are obscene. The funds buying and building all these blocks are hardly going to stop wanting to make obscene money ... they’ll claim it may reduce new builds etc , I don’t buy it ...

https://www.thejournal.ie/sinn-fein-rent-freeze-motion-4920395-Dec2019/

It’s going to be harder and Harder for ff to remain the hurler on the ditch. Bitch about the housing crisis , but shoot down this sf proposal ,..

SF are in opposition, the easiest job in the world is to be in opposition, you can basically say whatever the hell you like with impunity because you don't have the little inconvenience of having to make decisions in government.

Now I'm certainly not defending our current government, I think they're poor to be honest but listening to opposition promises is as naive as it gets!

is_that_so · 06-12-2019 10:07am

Huntergonzo wrote: »

SF are in opposition, the easiest job in the world is to be in opposition, you can basically say whatever the hell you like with impunity because you don't have the little inconvenience of having to make decisions in government.

Now I'm certainly not defending our current government, I think they're poor to be honest but listening to opposition promises is as naive as it gets!

Bear in mind that the SF plan, as always, is costed!

Idbatterim · 06-12-2019 10:24am

More insane bull**** below!

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/over-23-000-annual-management-fee-for-eight-dublin-social-homes-1.4106144?mode=amp

Take a look af the figures here , solves a lot of the bickering on this forum that goes back and forth !

“Top-earning city council tenants most likely to default on rent”

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/top-earning-city-council-tenants-most-likely-to-default-on-rent-1.4106254?mode=amp

is_that_so · 06-12-2019 10:35am

Idbatterim wrote: »

More insane bull**** below!

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/over-23-000-annual-management-fee-for-eight-dublin-social-homes-1.4106144?mode=amp

Take a look af the figures here , solves a lot of the bickering on this forum that goes back and forth !

“Top-earning city council tenants most likely to default on rent”

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/top-earning-city-council-tenants-most-likely-to-default-on-rent-1.4106254?mode=amp

Is Boards really the place to address your anger issues?

Wanderer78 · 06-12-2019 10:38am

The chan chan man wrote:

Any private developer that carried on like that would be out of business in a year! Its a lot easier to flute around when you have an endless pot of cash to dip into!

The ability for governments to produce money within the euro zone has been significantly reduced with policies such as the fiscal pact etc, so I wouldn't say that pot is all that endless

Balf · 06-12-2019 11:03am

The chan chan man wrote: »

I’m involved as a designer in both private and public projects. The public projects are a joke as the departments and local authorities are so caught up in their own red tape that they get nothing done and cost everyone a fortune!

Any private developer that carried on like that would be out of business in a year! Its a lot easier to flute around when you have an endless pot of cash to dip into!

Ah, yeah, here's what the private sector gets up to when they ignore all that red tape.

https://www.propertyhealthcheck.ie/what-is-pyrite-in-houses/
https://www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/major-fire-safety-problems-found-15958496

Are people really this stupid? "so caught up in their own red tape" my eye.

IAmTheReign · 06-12-2019 1:18pm

blanch152 wrote: »

The CEO of Peter McVerry Trust is paid over €100k, more than a TD.

Others like Threshold don't seem to publish their accounts on their websites. Neither do Simon Community Dublin.

Maybe I am missing them, but if I am, they are well hidden on their websites.

A quick google search would tell you all registered charities are required by law to file annual reports with the charities regulator. You can search for specific charities on their website here.

Do you think €100k is too much to pay a CEO of a charity? How much do you think he should be paid?

blanch152 · 06-12-2019 1:32pm

IAmTheReign wrote: »

A quick google search would tell you all registered charities are required by law to file annual reports with the charities regulator. You can search for specific charities on their website here.

Do you think €100k is too much to pay a CEO of a charity? How much do you think he should be paid?

They are also required to publish their accounts on their website if they have one.

Usually you have to dig deep to find the details.

There are dozens of homeless charities, how many of them pay their CEO more than 100k?

Focus Ireland paid their CEO 130k last year. That is about as much as the CEO of state bodies such as the Higher Education Authority which is responsible for all of higher education.

The chan chan man · 06-12-2019 2:06pm

Balf wrote: »

Ah, yeah, here's what the private sector gets up to when they ignore all that red tape.

https://www.propertyhealthcheck.ie/what-is-pyrite-in-houses/
https://www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/major-fire-safety-problems-found-15958496

Are people really this stupid? "so caught up in their own red tape" my eye.

I’m not talking about the quality side - I’m referring to the department’s dithering about with meetings, presentations, approval of designs, reports, reports, reports, reports....and more reports! I have a public project on the books which has been around 14 years and still hasn’t even gone to tender! I’ve already lost my shirt on it and have to see it through on site when it eventually makes its way there.

Idbatterim · 06-12-2019 2:07pm

Huntergonzo wrote: »

SF are in opposition, the easiest job in the world is to be in opposition, you can basically say whatever the hell you like with impunity because you don't have the little inconvenience of having to make decisions in government.

Now I'm certainly not defending our current government, I think they're poor to be honest but listening to opposition promises is as naive as it gets!

all of this true , but you cant find out how sincere they are being, until they go into government, assuming they actually want to go into government. at this stage, I would like to see SF in government, to see what would actually happen. that or FF insist on the state building social housing open to all, that would never be sold off and the rents are appropriate, no this near free bull**** we have now!

you are serious about the housing crisis SF or FF, make that a red line issue to form government. FG needs one or the other party... Its a bit difficult now, with the cofidence and supply , brexit and why would FF pull support when FG support is shrinking, but they are liars and hypocrites if they dont actually plan on the state building again.

blanch152 · 06-12-2019 2:13pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

all of this true , but you cant find out how sincere they are being, until they go into government, assuming they actually want to go into government. at this stage, I would like to see SF in government, to see what would actually happen. that or FF insist on the state building social housing open to all, that would never be sold off and the rents are appropriate, no this near free bull**** we have now!

you are serious about the housing crisis SF or FF, make that a red line issue to form government. FG needs one or the other party... Its a bit difficult now, with the cofidence and supply , brexit and why would FF pull support when FG support is shrinking, but they are liars and hypocrites if they dont actually plan on the state building again.

On the one hand, you complain at length about the amount of tax that you are paying, and that it should be reduced. On the other hand you want the State to start building more houses.

The mind boggles at the cognitive dissonance. With what money will the State build houses if it is reducing your taxes?

y0ssar1an22 · 06-12-2019 2:15pm

There's a few problems as far as I can tell:
Nimbyism. They should never be allowed comment on the housing crisis again.

Putting social housing in urban areas ideal for tax payers

Refusing to build up. Even a few extra stories.

City centre should be designated for workers, be they single or not, no place to raise a family. Family homes in the suburbs. Social housing, whatever is left

The real problem with Housing in Ireland

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