British and Irish Rugby League

Shefwedfan · 03-12-2019 10:53am #1

This was discussed on OTB podcast and is been mentioned in a few papers. I can only find WOL and BBC.

With CVC investing in the Premiership and also about to in the Pro14 they must have a long term plan. The Pro 14 is not a money maker but would be if they can join all the team together. In terms of the Premiership, yes they have a good TV deal but all of the clubs are losing money fast, bar Exeter. It is not sustainable.

In terms of Ireland, this can only be good. Leinster B beat Glasgow away and a Munster B side should have beaten a full strength Edinburgh side. Wales are on a downward spiral and soon it will end up the only competitive games are the interpro's.

If CVC do push ahead I would expect the HC to start dying a death. The French teams bar 2-3 of them don't care about it. The English teams are similar. They could maybe do a Super Cup with the top 4 teams from each league.

It would be interesting if they included the SA teams who are trying to get out of Super Rugby.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/50608122

Layout?
English 7
Ireland 4
Scotland 2
Wales 2
Italy 1

Zzippy · 03-12-2019 11:27am

Shefwedfan wrote: »

This was discussed on OTB podcast and is been mentioned in a few papers. I can only find WOL and BBC.

With CVC investing in the Premiership and also about to in the Pro14 they must have a long term plan. The Pro 14 is not a money maker but would be if they can join all the team together. In terms of the Premiership, yes they have a good TV deal but all of the clubs are losing money fast, bar Exeter. It is not sustainable.

In terms of Ireland, this can only be good. Leinster B beat Glasgow away and a Munster B side should have beaten a full strength Edinburgh side. Wales are on a downward spiral and soon it will end up the only competitive games are the interpro's.

If CVC do push ahead I would expect the HC to start dying a death. The French teams bar 2-3 of them don't care about it. The English teams are similar. They could maybe do a Super Cup with the top 4 teams from each league.

It would be interesting if they included the SA teams who are trying to get out of Super Rugby.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/50608122

Layout?
English 7
Ireland 4
Scotland 2
Wales 2
Italy 1

You expect 6 English teams and 2 Welsh teams to just give up on top flight rugby? :rolleyes:

connemara man · 03-12-2019 11:34am

If it happens it'll be a conference system like we have now but with more teams

Shefwedfan · 03-12-2019 11:35am

Zzippy wrote: »

You expect 6 English teams and 2 Welsh teams to just give up on top flight rugby? :rolleyes:

Guess you missed the question mark.....in regards the Welsh teams

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/mar/06/scarlets-confirm-merger-ospreys-off-the-table-talks-break-down-wales-rugby-union

Scythica · 03-12-2019 11:39am

Would the Irish teams survive if they had the same salary cap rules?

Would we see a LI become a 5th province?

Would we see people move to 'foreign' teams if the rules change to allow any BANDI team to release players for camps?

Would the NIQ rule be enforced on the English teams?

I like the idea of it but I can't see how it works.

Shefwedfan · 03-12-2019 11:45am

Scythica wrote: »

Would the Irish teams survive if they had the same salary cap rules?

Would we see a LI become a 5th province?

Would we see people move to 'foreign' teams if the rules change to allow any BANDI team to release players for camps?

Would the NIQ rule be enforced on the English teams?

I like the idea of it but I can't see how it works.

Why would LI become a 5th province? If anything the fact irish provinces are in a combined league they would have no requirement for a 5th province

The salary cap is a joke at the moment, it is going to be reviewed anyway. Ireland system is different so I don't know how they could implement a salary cap unless they go by country?

I would expect each country could do what it wants in terms of NIQ....that is an Irish decision and doesn't have anything to do with England/Wales. If they want their clubs with 15 NIQ that's their decision.

The whole point of the league would be to increase TV money so the likes of Ireland/Wales/Scotland can hold onto their players. So I would expect to see less movement to other countries. So Glasgow if they had more money they would be able to hold onto Hogg etc

Nermal · 03-12-2019 11:45am

Send the SA teams back home.

Insert the PRO12 under the Premiership, above the Championship.

Two teams relegated/promoted each year, and let's see how we get on...

Shefwedfan · 03-12-2019 11:48am

Nermal wrote: »

Send the SA teams back home.

Insert the PRO12 under the Premiership, above the Championship.

Two teams relegated/promoted each year, and let's see how we get on...

Why would you do that?

If anything that would kill Welsh/Italian and Scottish rugby......

Plus the English would never sign up, I would expect all 4 provinces would be in the Top Tier very quickly and England would have a reduced number of clubs playing in their tier.......

ClanofLams · 03-12-2019 11:53am

connemara man wrote: »

If it happens it'll be a conference system like we have now but with more teams

This. I think it’s a very long way from happening but if it does, there’s no chance five or six English teams are suddenly going to be content with with being championship. It’ll be a 24/28 team top tier flight.

Would hope the conferences aren’t done by region for both selfish reasons and genuine ones too. Think they should change every two years or so too.

Shefwedfan · 03-12-2019 11:57am

ClanofLams wrote: »

This. I think it’s a very long way from happening but if it does, there’s no chance five or six English teams are suddenly going to be content with with being championship. It’ll be a 24/28 team top tier flight.

Would hope the conferences aren’t done by region for both selfish reasons and genuine ones too. Think they should change every two years or so too.

Sorry I had forgot, it was mentioned it would be conference. Also relegation would be off the table.

Something which the big guns in England are pushing for anyway

Nermal · 03-12-2019 12:07pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Why would you do that?

If anything that would kill Welsh/Italian and Scottish rugby......

Plus the English would never sign up, I would expect all 4 provinces would be in the Top Tier very quickly and England would have a reduced number of clubs playing in their tier.......

I would expect that too - but don't see why it would kill the Welsh/Italian/Scottish teams.

I think this would maximise the number of games that were competitive and meaningful in each of the three divisions. Given that only two teams would move each year, it would give a reasonable 'adjustment' period to all teams involved and make it more attractive to the Premiership.

Shefwedfan · 03-12-2019 12:14pm

Nermal wrote: »

I would expect that too - but don't see why it would kill the Welsh/Italian/Scottish teams.

I think this would maximise the number of games that were competitive and meaningful in each of the three divisions. Given that only two teams would move each year, it would give a reasonable 'adjustment' period to all teams involved and make it more attractive to the Premiership.

Wales and Scotland have no money

Sticking them into a second division when at best for the first 2 years they won't be able to get up as the Irish teams will be ahead.

Their players will jump to other clubs and they will just go down and down.

arsebiscuits1 · 03-12-2019 12:15pm

Credit to reddit user u/ruggawakka for this

The structure I've been thinking of would have 24 teams (10 Celtic + 12 prem + Newcastle + Yorkshire) split into 2 conferences and further divided into 6 divisions based roughly on geography and historical rivalries.

Each team plays their division rivals home and away for 6 games, the rest of their conference home or away for 8 games, and all teams from one division in the other conference home or away for 4 games which will rotate every season, for a total of 18 games per team. The reduction in games will help to solve the issue of club-country conflict, aid in player welfare and improve the on field product.

8 teams will contest the playoffs with the top placed team from each division plus the next best placed team from each conference. The playoff bracket will be organised by conference so quarter final and then the conference final possibly in a neutral venue, culminating in the grand final which will rotate neutral venue every year. They will compete for the Bill McLaren Trophy.

You could name it the British and Irish League or Anglo-Celtic League or Lions League. Either way a Lion needs to be incorporated in the branding.

North Conference
Scots-north division
- Glasgow - Edinburgh - Newcastle - Yorkshire

Irish division
- Leinster - Ulster - Munster - Connacht

Central division
- Leicester - Northampton - Worcester - Sale

South conference
Welsh Division
- Ospreys - Cardiff - Scarlets - Dragons

West division
- Bath - Gloucester - Exeter - Bristol

London Division
- Harlequins - Saracens - London Irish - Wasps

User has put a lot of thought into this. But we saw with Super Rugby that a complex conference system across different countries does not work. I think it would be a catastrophe.

The only way this league would work is if the unions agree to dissolve some of their teams. Which obviously the RFU have no power to do.

Shefwedfan · 03-12-2019 12:23pm

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

Credit to reddit user u/ruggawakka for this

User has put a lot of thought into this. But we saw with Super Rugby that a complex conference system across different countries does not work. I think it would be a catastrophe.

The only way this league would work is if the unions agree to dissolve some of their teams. Which obviously the RFU have no power to do.

The issue with Super Rugby is the distance. It is quicker to get on a flight from Dublin to Liverpool than to get a bus from Galway to Dublin.

Flying from Aus to SA means you are covering how many miles and time zones?

Even from Aus to NZ is a 3 hour flight. Most of the flight would be circa 1 hour for teams.

arsebiscuits1 · 03-12-2019 12:31pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

The issue with Super Rugby is the distance. It is quicker to get on a flight from Dublin to Liverpool than to get a bus from Galway to Dublin.

Flying from Aus to SA means you are covering how many miles and time zones?

Even from Aus to NZ is a 3 hour flight. Most of the flight would be circa 1 hour for teams.

Part of the super rugby issue was the distance yes.

But a lot of the feedback is no one really could follow the conference system - myself included.

Having said that. Their rule that a finite number of teams from each country could qualify for playoffs (ie. try and not make NZ teams stupidly dominant) definitely didn't work in their favour

The Lost Sheep · 03-12-2019 12:47pm

Scythica wrote: »

Would the Irish teams survive if they had the same salary cap rules?

Would we see a LI become a 5th province?

Would we see people move to 'foreign' teams if the rules change to allow any BANDI team to release players for camps?

Would the NIQ rule be enforced on the English teams?

I like the idea of it but I can't see how it works.

would provinces have to go under same rules as English as no reason they'd have to keep to our niq rules.
London Irish wont be anything like a 5th province. Irfu wouldnt have control so players access for internationals wouldnt br sane as it would be for provinces.

Nermal wrote: »

Send the SA teams back home.

Insert the PRO12 under the Premiership, above the Championship.

Two teams relegated/promoted each year, and let's see how we get on...

why would or should pro12 be under the premiership?

Richie_Rich89 · 03-12-2019 1:27pm

The IRFU need to remember who their friends are here. Just cutting the Italians and South Africans adrift would be a mistake, and if this mooted league meant the European Cup was sidelined or abandoned it could set Irish rugby back twenty years.

Shefwedfan · 03-12-2019 1:36pm

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

The IRFU need to remember who their friends are here. Just cutting the Italians and South Africans adrift would be a mistake, and if this mooted league meant the European Cup was sidelined or abandoned it could set Irish rugby back twenty years.

Italian didn't give Ireland much of a hand recently at the WC bid.....England been the only home union to side with Ireland.....

Plans are already in the making to reduce the HC according to the podcast last night.

arsebiscuits1 · 03-12-2019 1:37pm

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

The IRFU need to remember who their friends are here. Just cutting the Italians and South Africans adrift would be a mistake, and if this mooted league meant the European Cup was sidelined or abandoned it could set Irish rugby back twenty years.

The Italians and the Scots wont be aided by the IRFU for the forseeable future after their votes for 2023

hahashake · 03-12-2019 1:45pm

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

Part of the super rugby issue was the distance yes.

But a lot of the feedback is no one really could follow the conference system - myself included.

Having said that. Their rule that a finite number of teams from each country could qualify for playoffs (ie. try and not make NZ teams stupidly dominant) definitely didn't work in their favour

Think issues around the conference system are slightly overblown. I would say the multiple time zones for watching + cost/distance of travel + player drain were/are the biggest issues. Travelling Auckland to Dunedin is further and usually more expensive than Dublin to London. Now consider Sydney to Perth or Tokyo to Pretoria or Capetown to Buenos Aires etc. etc.

awec · 05-12-2019 2:18pm

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

Credit to reddit user u/ruggawakka for this

User has put a lot of thought into this. But we saw with Super Rugby that a complex conference system across different countries does not work. I think it would be a catastrophe.

The only way this league would work is if the unions agree to dissolve some of their teams. Which obviously the RFU have no power to do.

That is a really interesting proposal.

I think change is inevitable here. The Pro14 is not sustainable in it's current guise.

And by extension, once the leagues change the HEC will have to follow.

AbusesToilets · 06-12-2019 4:23pm

The future is likely a NFL style pan European franchise set up, with the top clubs. Basically the HC as a singular league. A conference set up would be perfect for that, and would make it easier to bring in teams from developing rugby nations, like Georgia, Germany, Spain etc.

A B&I league would be a good first step in that direction. From what I remember, the biggest criticism of the conferences in Super Rugby was the imbalance when it came to the playoffs. You had weak SA and Aus teams getting berths with much better NZ teams being left out.

British and Irish Rugby League

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