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06-12-2019, 06:47   #346
ingalway
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Human rights for starters anyway were never based upon biological realities. They are entirely based upon feelings, morals, values, principles, ideals.

Asking why should women make space in single sex spaces for men who say they are women is a bit like asking why should anyone make space for anyone in any given space. The answer is simply because no rights are absolute - so in just the same way as men had to make room for women in the workplace, so too do women have to make room for men who say they are women in women’s spaces.

It’s not a human right to identify oneself as either black or disabled if one is neither black nor disabled, and that’s not a right I personally would have any interest in supporting. Could it become a human right at some point in the future? Possibly. But at the moment there doesn’t appear to be any demand for it, unlike the circumstances of people who are transgender or non-binary.

I do agree with you that body dysphoria and dysmorphia does need careful handling, and that’s why I don’t particularly care for someone like Yanniv who IMO is frankly taking the piss. I don’t support the idea of ‘transitioning’ though because as you’ve already pointed out - it’s biologically impossible, and at best all will ever be achieved is an approximation of the sex they aspire to be, whether that be either male or female. There are a growing number of people identifying themselves as transgender who have no inclination to undergo any kind of medical treatment, instead simply satisfying themselves with social transition (or pulling on a dress, makeup and high heels, if you prefer), and there are those people for whom the results of their medical treatments are unsatisfying, and they revert to their previous physiology before medical or surgical transition (or try to anyway, with mixed and often unfortunate results). The point I’m making is that in just the same way as we are often reminded that women are not a hive mind, neither are people who are transgender - they all have their own ideas and it’s a pretty murky rabbit hole between ”truscum” and “tucutes” (don’t look at me, I don’t come up with these terms ).

Simply declaring yourself something is of course meaningless, but if you are legally recognised in law as whatever you claim to be, then that is exercising what is, contrary to your opinion, a human right. It would be pandering to narcissists if we were simply to allow anyone to declare what are or aren’t human rights based upon their own internal feelings, and that’s why human rights law doesn’t pander to your opinion for example. I’m not suggesting you’re a narcissist, but that’s the definition of a narcissist, and you’re right, it’s not the answer - no one individual should have the power to determine what human rights another individual is or isn’t entitled to. Human rights are recognised and protected by the State, and so in just the same way as you aren’t obligated to indulge anyone you don’t want to, they too have the same right not to indulge you if they choose not to. They also have the right to be recognised in law as their preferred gender by the State.
Well I'm glad we agree that no one can ever change their sex and that what we are really talking about here are cross dressers. No problem with a cross dresser but as we agree a woman it does not make so they have no rights to women's spaces, sports etc.
If you choose self id in this scenario then you must be prepared for all the crazy scenarios such as black and disabled that are coming and their claims must be no less legitimate than women being told that women can have a penis.
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06-12-2019, 08:28   #347
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participating in a lie always has the potential for negative consequences.
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06-12-2019, 08:33   #348
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Originally Posted by ingalway View Post
Well I'm glad we agree that no one can ever change their sex and that what we are really talking about here are cross dressers. No problem with a cross dresser but as we agree a woman it does not make so they have no rights to women's spaces, sports etc.
If you choose self id in this scenario then you must be prepared for all the crazy scenarios such as black and disabled that are coming and their claims must be no less legitimate than women being told that women can have a penis.
BTW - thanks for all the great jobs you gave us. Very kind.
Here’s some facts:

Gender dysmorphia is a very real issue that needs to be treated.

People can legally change their gender.

Here’s some opinions:

Accepting the above doesn’t mean we have to accept that people can identify as anything they like, in a legal sense.

If someone wants to identify as disabled, grand, but they can’t be given disability allowances because they don’t actually have a disability.

If someone wants to identify as black. Grand, go for it. Why does it matter? You’re harming no one and get zero benefits for it. It’s not as if you change you race to black legally.
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06-12-2019, 09:09   #349
ingalway
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Here’s some facts:

Gender dysmorphia is a very real issue that needs to be treated.

People can legally change their gender.

Here’s some opinions:

Accepting the above doesn’t mean we have to accept that people can identify as anything they like, in a legal sense.

If someone wants to identify as disabled, grand, but they can’t be given disability allowances because they don’t actually have a disability.

If someone wants to identify as black. Grand, go for it. Why does it matter? You’re harming no one and get zero benefits for it. It’s not as if you change you race to black legally.
Give me strength.
There is no point in me stating yet again that that having men in women's single sex (not gender) spaces and sports is harmful to women and girls, especially girls. There is no point saying that because you and TRAs don't care about that, the ONLY important thing is that men get whatever they want.
And you really see no other issue of white people pretending to be black? Blackface would be the social transition version I suppose?
Or non disabled pretending to be disabled other than not getting their fantastic disability allowance?
Why should their legal status not reflect how they 'truly' feel. Who are we to gatekeep their true feelings of race or disability?
Self Identification surely can't only be about what sex you think you have the right to choose to be, it has to encompass all possibilities of how you wish to identify your special self?
Or is it actually only really about men getting what they want?
The attached copy of a tweet sums it up well.
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06-12-2019, 09:13   #350
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plenty of m to f transitions seem to happen later in life, when these people have married and had families. where are the f to m people transitioning in their 50s ?
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06-12-2019, 09:18   #351
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85% of trans women keep their penis. They are male. They were born a man and will die a man. Why should women be forced to accept a man in a dress into their spaces so as not to upset the mans feelings? Toilets, changing rooms, refuges, safe spaces, sports and prisons.

Trans activists have successfully managed to remove the word/symbol for women out of periods and pregnancy. In some countries it is now pregnant person rather than pregnant woman. It is biologically impossible for a man to ever get pregnant so why are we pondering to this nonsense. They are trying to erase women. If trans women do not feel safe in male spaces why not fight for a third?

I will not refer to Yaniv as she/her for the same reason as I would not agree that an anorexic is fat. It is not true and I would be lying if I said it.
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06-12-2019, 09:29   #352
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Originally Posted by ingalway View Post
Give me strength.
There is no point in me stating yet again that that having men in women's single sex (not gender) spaces and sports is harmful to women and girls, especially girls. There is no point saying that because you and TRAs don't care about that, the ONLY important thing is that men get whatever they want.
You're turning an incredibly complicated trans issue into black and white issue of misogyny. I don't understand why you are so intent in oversimplifying the issue.

I don't think trans women should be allowed compete in women's sports. There are clear scientific reasons why the have an advantage.

Trans women in women's spaces? It's a head breaker.

I didn't mention either of these in my post, so I am not sure why you're addressing them to me though. My point was that it's complicated and far from as simple as you make out.

Quote:
And you really see no other issue of white people pretending to be black? Blackface would be the social transition version I suppose?
Or non disabled pretending to be disabled other than not getting their fantastic disability allowance?
Why should their legal status not reflect how they 'truly' feel. Who are we to gatekeep their true feelings of race or disability?
Self Identification surely can't only be about what sex you think you have the right to choose to be, it has to encompass all possibilities of how you wish to identify your special self?
You're attempting to make a point by arguing it to the absurd.

I honestly couldn't care less how people self identify. It doesn't mean I believe they should have legal protection to do so.

So I'm fine with people self identifying any way they want, as long is it doesn't harm anyone. Why do you care so much? Apart of arguing to the absurd.

Quote:
Or is it actually only really about men getting what they want?
The attached copy of a tweet sums it up well.
This is a new argument I've been hearing more of recently. Some feminists believe this is about men attempting to reassert themselves as they lose power. I'm concerned it might be true in Some cases. However that doesn't overrule the rights of trans people, both male to female and female to male.

The person in the OP is a provocateur who is doing more harm than good to the trans cause IMO.

I absolutely don't support everyone's right to be outraged, which seems to be the real core of this argument. Trans people get outraged, transphobic people get counter outrages, people in the middle get outraged by both sets of outrage and the circular discussion starts again.
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06-12-2019, 09:30   #353
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plenty of m to f transitions seem to happen later in life, when these people have married and had families. where are the f to m people transitioning in their 50s ?
Why do you care?
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06-12-2019, 09:32   #354
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85% of trans women keep their penis. They are male. They were born a man and will die a man. Why should women be forced to accept a man in a dress into their spaces so as not to upset the mans feelings? Toilets, changing rooms, refuges, safe spaces, sports and prisons.

Trans activists have successfully managed to remove the word/symbol for women out of periods and pregnancy. In some countries it is now pregnant person rather than pregnant woman. It is biologically impossible for a man to ever get pregnant so why are we pondering to this nonsense. They are trying to erase women. If trans women do not feel safe in male spaces why not fight for a third?

I will not refer to Yaniv as she/her for the same reason as I would not agree that an anorexic is fat. It is not true and I would be lying if I said it.
Did you ever look into why 85% of transgender people don't get gender reassignment surgery? Or are you happy to make a snap judgement on it.
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06-12-2019, 09:40   #355
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Did you ever look into why 85% of transgender people don't get gender reassignment surgery? Or are you happy to make a snap judgement on it.
Would you comply and refer to anorexic people as fat if they identified as overweight?
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06-12-2019, 09:42   #356
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Why do you care?
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Did you ever look into why 85% of transgender people don't get gender reassignment surgery? Or are you happy to make a snap judgement on it.

Make your mind up.
That looks like either everyone should shut up and ask zero questions or everyone should ask questions.
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06-12-2019, 09:44   #357
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Would you comply and refer to anorexic people as fat if they identified as overweight?
Complete false equivalency.

And not even remotely related to the post you quoted. Bizarre.
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06-12-2019, 09:46   #358
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Make your mind up.
That looks like either everyone should shut up and ask zero questions or everyone should ask questions.
Those 2 statements don’t contradict each other in the least, you’re being silly. Possibly a silly goose.

One is in response to someone expressing an opinion on transgender people.

One is asking a simple clarifying question. I’m not saying they have no right to ask.
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06-12-2019, 09:48   #359
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Why do you care?
because i think its an interesting question. The trans issue as a whole is interesting because it's so filled with absurdity and contradiction.
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06-12-2019, 09:49   #360
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Would you comply and refer to anorexic people as fat if they identified as overweight?
Does that happen much?
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