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Should people in emergency accommodation be made pay for their stay?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 16,815 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    Augeo wrote:
    No, to end up in that situation quite a few things have to happen. I have either been lucky or my path through life has enabled me not to be in that situation.

    It's luck one way or another. Good or bad.
    The battered wives in sheltered accommodation married the man of their dreams. It's not their fault when years later he turned violent.

    The ex homeowners in sheltered or emergency accommodation did nothing wrong when they lost their homes to the bank. They were law abiding tax paying citizens.

    Pure luck one way or another


  • Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    ........

    Pure luck one way or another

    Yeah.......... no one who made a career out of being on the dole has ended up in emergency accommodation as they fancy a council property and not HAP etc etc.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,776 ✭✭✭Old diesel


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    Neither am I



    Only the government can change this.



    It's a business agreement with the state & the hotel. The homeless people aren't hotel guests. They have different rules and regulations and can't avail of the facilities like a regular guest. The homeless people have an agreement with the state & not the hotel. The government rent the rooms & house the homeless there. It is housing. It becomes housing in the same way that privately owned property rented through HAP becomes social housing. The state are the landlord or at least they become the landlord if they charge rent. The government know this & it does not matter how many people jump up & down here the government won't charge rent because they become landlords and it leaves them wide open to having to follow laws and legislation.

    If you believe they can charge rent please explain why the government isn't charging rent? What reason do you think is stopping them? You know there has to be a reason

    A very interesting argument you make because for me if your argument is correct - so much starts to make sense.

    If a homeless family was booked in as a normal guest then you would expect......

    1) full access to all hotel facilities including hotel pool if there is one.

    2) theres a "rugby match on in 6 weeks time" - in a normal guest situation the homeless family gets priority as a guest for booking in over someone who doesn't even know they are going to the match yet.

    3) in a normal guest situation you can book the room not only on a B & B basis but including dinner too. You often see the dinner bit presented on a 2 night stay with one night dinner etc. Point is - dinner CAN be included in the guest rate. Rather then having to go out for take aways. Hotels often offer "cheaper" bar food options which when done well are superior to take aways.

    4) if you are a proper guest booked in for more then one night - you have full access to your room and all facilities from 3 pm* on first day of arrival to 12 pm on your day of departure.

    If they are literally "renting a room" on a week to week basis then you can suddenly why terms are different for homeless people.

    The council could literally be renting the use of one room.

    I would at the very least expect that on those terms the room is been offered at below the normal guest rates. But I'm sure someone has found a way to pay MORE for less.

    *or immediately if booking later the day


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,815 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    Augeo wrote:
    Yeah.......... no one who made a career out of being on the dole has ended up in emergency accommodation as they fancy a council property and not HAP etc etc.


    There is no doubt that there are chancers and scam artists. SVP believe 10 percent of people availing of their services are not genuine. I have met scammers myself

    It is very narrow minded to make out that all are scamming. By doing this you belittle the 90 percent of genuine cases. It stigmatises the whole process. I understand that some posters seem to be fully paid up members of FG. The same posters would rather imply that all or most aren't genuine rather than admit that their party created the homeless & housing crisis by ignoring the warnings for so long.

    The people on the ground & indeed the government itself can see that there is a crisis & that the vast majority are genuine cases


  • Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    ............. I understand that some posters seem to be fully paid up members of FG. The same posters would rather imply that all or most aren't genuine rather than admit that their party created the homeless & housing crisis by ignoring the warnings for so long.
    .............

    lol, that's a fair speel of horsesh1t to be fair.
    You must be a lefty anyway.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    There is no doubt that there are chancers and scam artists. SVP believe 10 percent of people availing of their services are not genuine. I have met scammers myself

    It is very narrow minded to make out that all are scamming. By doing this you belittle the 90 percent of genuine cases. It stigmatises the whole process. I understand that some posters seem to be fully paid up members of FG. The same posters would rather imply that all or most aren't genuine rather than admit that their party created the homeless & housing crisis by ignoring the warnings for so long.

    The people on the ground & indeed the government itself can see that there is a crisis & that the vast majority are genuine cases

    I think it's easy to spot those who are there by bad luck Vs those there by choice. The problem is some of those there by choice would never get a house in the rental market, no one on their right mind would let them near their property. They often have anti social behavior issues, addiction etc. I don't know what people expect, they want them housed but I guarantee they wouldn't offer their property.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,815 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    eviltwin wrote: »
    I think it's easy to spot those who are there by bad luck Vs those there by choice. The problem is some of those there by choice would never get a house in the rental market, no one on their right mind would let them near their property. They often have anti social behavior issues, addiction etc. I don't know what people expect, they want them housed but I guarantee they wouldn't offer their property.




    The important thing to remember is that there are both kinds & the genuine cases far outweigh the chancers


  • Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    The important thing to remember is that there are both kinds & the genuine cases far outweigh the chancers

    Do you really think that?

    A minority of homeless folk are as you describe below......
    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    ........
    The battered wives in sheltered accommodation...........

    The ex homeowners in sheltered or emergency accommodation .......

    I was in a hotel for a party last Christmas and it was obvious that loads of rooms there were emergency accommodation.

    What struck me was the sheer number of kids each couple seemed to have, well above the 2.4 average or whatever it is.

    A significant amount of the homeless folk are gaming the system to get a council property that suits them.......they are sprogged up to facilitate this too.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,717 ✭✭✭YFlyer


    riclad wrote: »
    Did you ever stay in emergency accomodation ?
    People in hotels have to back in every night by a certain time,
    11pm approx, you have a tv , one kettle to make tea.
    no cooking facilty,s .
    i don,t think they should pay anything.
    Its not very luxurious accomodation .

    I'll take it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,440 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    Nothing should be completely free.
    They should contribute something towards the cost.

    While there may be an element of the state failing them the majority of the failing is to be shared among themselves, parents, partners. At some stage along the line ****ty decisions lead to where they are now.

    For the rest of us we and our parents made huge efforts and sacrifices to secure our lifestyle. My parents went without and worked hard so we could go to college, I worked from age 15. When I got married I didn’t go on to have a string of kids with no plan or ability to provide for them.

    People love to blame the state but it’s more tue truth that they should be looking at those they have surrounded themselves with for the causes of their problems.

    Personal responsibility is something they don’t want to face.

    All those teachers who told them if they didn’t work hard they would go nowhere - they were dead right !


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  • Registered Users Posts: 16,815 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    Augeo wrote: »
    Do you really think that?

    A minority of homeless folk are as you describe below......



    I was in a hotel for a party last Christmas and it was obvious that loads of rooms there were emergency accommodation.

    What struck me was the sheer number of kids each couple seemed to have, well above the 2.4 average or whatever it is.

    A significant amount of the homeless folk are gaming the system to get a council property that suits them.......they are sprogged up to facilitate this too.




    Oh I really KNOW that. Unlike many posters here I have direct contact with homeless people.



    Here's the thing. People with no real contact with homeless people get to have wonderful imaginations when it comes to homeless people. They can imagine & make up anything they want.



    Then you have people who work directly with homeless people & homeless charities & they don't have the luxury to imagine these fantastical things. Sadly they have to face reality everyday. You'll never find anyone that has worked with homelessness or has first hand experience of it say that most are scamming the system because it's simply not true. People involved with homeless people see the daily misery that goes on.



    Government departments, agencies & ministers all know that the vast majority are very genuine cases. The only people claiming otherwise are the people sitting in warm offices & homes with no experience at all banging away on their keyboard.



    Get out & join a soup kitchen, food run or volunteer with a homeless charity for a few months & then come back to me & tell me I'm a liar


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,717 ✭✭✭YFlyer


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    They have no cooking facilities at all. They hyave to pay for take out food or store bought sandwiches. A huge amount of people in hotels have to move regularly. Sometimes several times per week.

    What exactly would they be paying for?

    Sandwiches can be made cheaply or get salad based food from the stores.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,815 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    YFlyer wrote:
    Sandwiches can be made cheaply or get salad based food from the stores.


    As pointed out before government can't charge rent for accommodation without cooking facilities.

    Private landlords could make your same argument about making sandwiches and then not provide a cooking. This is why it's illegal


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,776 ✭✭✭Old diesel


    _Brian wrote: »
    Nothing should be completely free.
    They should contribute something towards the cost.

    While there may be an element of the state failing them the majority of the failing is to be shared among themselves, parents, partners. At some stage along the line ****ty decisions lead to where they are now.

    For the rest of us we and our parents made huge efforts and sacrifices to secure our lifestyle. My parents went without and worked hard so we could go to college, I worked from age 15. When I got married I didn’t go on to have a string of kids with no plan or ability to provide for them.

    People love to blame the state but it’s more tue truth that they should be looking at those they have surrounded themselves with for the causes of their problems.

    Personal responsibility is something they don’t want to face.

    All those teachers who told them if they didn’t work hard they would go nowhere - they were dead right !

    No amount of taking personal responsibility or hard work overcome the problems that our unfit for purpose rental and housing system creates.

    All the working hard in the world will not prevent your landlord deciding to sell up and no alternative accomodation been available to you in a suitable location and at a price you can pay.

    Then theres totally random landlord selection - no we don't want teenagers, no we don't want the van you need for the job that pays the rent we charge you parked on the drive. How are you supposeded to work around that. Someone here on boards actually reported having the "can't have teenagers" and "don't want the van parked on drive" objections from Landlords. I think it was the guy unhappy that a receiver gave him a shorter notice period then other properties the same receIver was giving other properties.

    Another issue is people having a place to stay they could afford when they originally had their kids

    The problem is lack of supply - there are too many people needing housing vs the available supply.

    I can't think of a way tenants can increase housing supply by themselves even with the best of hard work and personal responsibility.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,440 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    Oh I really KNOW that. Unlike many posters here I have direct contact with homeless people.



    Here's the thing. People with no real contact with homeless people get to have wonderful imaginations when it comes to homeless people. They can imagine & make up anything they want.



    Then you have people who work directly with homeless people & homeless charities & they don't have the luxury to imagine these fantastical things. Sadly they have to face reality everyday. You'll never find anyone that has worked with homelessness or has first hand experience of it say that most are scamming the system because it's simply not true. People involved with homeless people see the daily misery that goes on.



    Government departments, agencies & ministers all know that the vast majority are very genuine cases. The only people claiming otherwise are the people sitting in warm offices & homes with no experience at all banging away on their keyboard.



    Get out & join a soup kitchen, food run or volunteer with a homeless charity for a few months & then come back to me & tell me I'm a liar

    So is it everyone else’s fault except their own ??

    Because it’s everyone else that’s paying the bill while providing for themselves and their own families.

    In many if not most cases it’s a series of poor personal choices that bring them to where they are. When people aren’t accountable for their personal choices then things don’t change, in fact they get worse.

    What of those who turn down accommodation and choose to remain homeless, some turning down multiple options, when do we say enough !!

    Yes the state has a responsibility to these people, but they need to accept they will need to compromise and take what they get, it’s primarily their own responsibility they are in these positions.




  • Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Or to put it another way some people want a secure tenancy and not be told in 6 months or a year that the LL is selling up/ needs it for a relation/is refurbishing.

    Imagine wanting secure accommodation-the cheek of some people.

    theres many want that

    theres a proportion want it for nothing


  • Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    Oh I really KNOW that. Unlike many posters here I have direct contact with homeless people.



    Here's the thing. People with no real contact with homeless people get to have wonderful imaginations when it comes to homeless people. They can imagine & make up anything they want.



    Then you have people who work directly with homeless people & homeless charities & they don't have the luxury to imagine these fantastical things. Sadly they have to face reality everyday. You'll never find anyone that has worked with homelessness or has first hand experience of it say that most are scamming the system because it's simply not true. People involved with homeless people see the daily misery that goes on.



    Government departments, agencies & ministers all know that the vast majority are very genuine cases. The only people claiming otherwise are the people sitting in warm offices & homes with no experience at all banging away on their keyboard.



    Get out & join a soup kitchen, food run or volunteer with a homeless charity for a few months & then come back to me & tell me I'm a liar

    yawn ......... I said significant amount, not most.

    You can be a tad deluded/naive etc without being a liar btw.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,440 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    Old diesel wrote: »
    No amount of taking personal responsibility or hard work overcome the problems that our unfit for purpose rental and housing system creates.

    All the working hard in the world will not prevent your landlord deciding to sell up and no alternative accomodation been available to you in a suitable location and at a price you can pay.

    Then theres totally random landlord selection - no we don't want teenagers, no we don't want the van you need for the job that pays the rent we charge you parked on the drive. How are you supposeded to work around that. Someone here on boards actually reported having the "can't have teenagers" and "don't want the van parked on drive" objections from Landlords. I think it was the guy unhappy that a receiver gave him a shorter notice period then other properties the same receIver was giving other properties.

    Another issue is people having a place to stay they could afford when they originally had their kids

    The problem is lack of supply - there are too many people needing housing vs the available supply.

    I can't think of a way tenants can increase housing supply by themselves even with the best of hard work and personal responsibility.

    A “suitable location”

    Suitable locations are those you can afford, if you can’t afford your desired location then up sticks and move to somewhere you can afford. It’s not the states responsibility to supplement people to live in their desired location. Plenty of us have to compromise on this stuff and work and pay the bills and support those who won’t compromise on where there is accommodation they can afford.


  • Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    _Brian wrote: »
    So is it everyone else’s fault except their own ??

    ...................

    In many if not most cases it’s a series of poor personal choices that bring them to where they are. When people aren’t accountable for their personal choices then things don’t change, in fact they get worse..................

    Indeed.
    Very well said.

    Thousands spent on various activities (smoking, drinking, recreational drugs) over the years, never getting a skill or trade, being happy on the scratch and with HAP etc while rental accomodation was plentiful, have a few kids etc etc.

    Then when the sh1t hits the fan get emergency accomodation and keep on refusing HAP offers until the state ponies up a council home for you and yours.

    But, that's all just in my imagination :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,815 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    _Brian wrote: »
    So is it everyone else’s fault except their own ??

    Because it’s everyone else that’s paying the bill while providing for themselves and their own families.

    In many if not most cases it’s a series of poor personal choices that bring them to where they are. When people aren’t accountable for their personal choices then things don’t change, in fact they get worse.

    What of those who turn down accommodation and choose to remain homeless, some turning down multiple options, when do we say enough !!

    Yes the state has a responsibility to these people, but they need to accept they will need to compromise and take what they get, it’s primarily their own responsibility they are in these positions.




    Who are you talking about?



    You do realize that people who were happy paying rent have been made homeless by their landlord? They didn't do anything wrong. The landlord decides he can make twice as much with airbnb. This is the homeless persons fault?? I'm not even blaming the landlord but how can you blame the tenant being put out on the street?



    Many homeless people bought their own homes in 2006 & 2007 & lost their jobs & then their homes. These were law abiding & tax paying citizens. Some to this day have zero credit rating. Is it their fault??


    You sound like you formed your opinion of homeless people, not based on fact but based on seeing homeless people at a hotel christmass party like another poster


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  • Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    ...............



    Many homeless people bought their own homes in 2006 & 2007 & lost their jobs & then their homes. These were law abiding & tax paying citizens. Some to this day have zero credit rating. Is it their fault??............

    What % of homeless people do you estimate fall into that category?
    You're looking at single figures.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,815 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    Augeo wrote: »
    Indeed.
    Very well said.

    Thousands spent on various activities (smoking, drinking, recreational drugs) over the years, never getting a skill or trade, being happy on the scratch and with HAP etc while rental accomodation was plentiful, have a few kids etc etc.

    Then when the sh1t hits the fan get emergency accomodation and keep on refusing HAP offers until the state ponies up a council home for you and yours.

    But, that's all just in my imagination :rolleyes:




    Yes it is.


    Where did you come up with this nonsense? All homeless people smoke drink & take recreational drugs! Really???


    Before you make a bigger fool of yourself I suggest you volunteer with a homeless charity.


  • Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    ............ based on seeing homeless people at a hotel christmass party like another poster

    lol

    You are getting p1ssy now ;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,440 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    Who are you talking about?



    You do realize that people who were happy paying rent have been made homeless by their landlord? They didn't do anything wrong. The landlord decides he can make twice as much with airbnb. This is the homeless persons fault?? I'm not even blaming the landlord but how can you blame the tenant being put out on the street?



    Many homeless people bought their own homes in 2006 & 2007 & lost their jobs & then their homes. These were law abiding & tax paying citizens. Some to this day have zero credit rating. Is it their fault??


    You sound like you formed your opinion of homeless people, not based on fact but based on seeing homeless people at a hotel christmass party like another poster

    How do I know if it’s tgeir fault

    Peopleloose their jobs and then get other jobs.
    We can’t accept people shrugging their shoulders and turning to the state to support them
    People are dealt hard knocks all the time, it’s how you deal with that situation. They have a responsibility to themselves, their kids and other tax payers to either work their way out or accept whatever is offered to them even if it’s not in their “suitable location”


  • Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    Yes it is.


    Where did you come up with this nonsense? All homeless people smoke drink & take recreational drugs! Really???


    Before you make a bigger fool of yourself I suggest you volunteer with a homeless charity.

    did I say all?
    Nope...........




  • Sleeper12 wrote: »
    Who are you talking about?



    You do realize that people who were happy paying rent have been made homeless by their landlord? They didn't do anything wrong. The landlord decides he can make twice as much with airbnb. This is the homeless persons fault?? I'm not even blaming the landlord but how can you blame the tenant being put out on the street?



    Many homeless people bought their own homes in 2006 & 2007 & lost their jobs & then their homes. These were law abiding & tax paying citizens. Some to this day have zero credit rating. Is it their fault??


    You sound like you formed your opinion of homeless people, not based on fact but based on seeing homeless people at a hotel christmass party like another poster


    whats your breakdown of the percentages

    after working in a housing unit for seven years, my breakdown of the housing list, let alone homeless, isnt so much "genuine" vs "scammers"

    its "did something to help themselves" and "didnt"

    breakdown- 5% vs 95%


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,815 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    Augeo wrote: »
    What % of homeless people do you estimate fall into that category?
    You're looking at single figures.


    Actually more than 85 percent have been paying rent right up to becoming homeless


    More to the point what percentage are chancers? The answer is 10 percent but I'm sure your answer will be entertaining.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,776 ✭✭✭Old diesel


    _Brian wrote: »
    A “suitable location”

    Suitable locations are those you can afford, if you can’t afford your desired location then up sticks and move to somewhere you can afford. It’s not the states responsibility to supplement people to live in their desired location. Plenty of us have to compromise on this stuff and work and pay the bills and support those who won’t compromise on where there is accommodation they can afford.

    But what if the job is in Dublin and the only place place you can afford is in Donegal or West Cork. And you can't find a job in either of those locations.

    See how suitable location can be an issue


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,440 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    Who are you talking about?



    You do realize that people who were happy paying rent have been made homeless by their landlord? They didn't do anything wrong. The landlord decides he can make twice as much with airbnb. This is the homeless persons fault?? I'm not even blaming the landlord but how can you blame the tenant being put out on the street?



    Many homeless people bought their own homes in 2006 & 2007 & lost their jobs & then their homes. These were law abiding & tax paying citizens. Some to this day have zero credit rating. Is it their fault??


    You sound like you formed your opinion of homeless people, not based on fact but based on seeing homeless people at a hotel christmass party like another poster

    I haven’t been to a Christmas party in years, I don’t go out because I choose to keep my money for the priorities in life like paying for the lifestyle I want and saving for my kids education.

    It’s abkut the choices we make in life,


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  • Sleeper12 wrote: »
    Actually more than 85 percent have been paying rent right up to becoming homeless


    More to the point what percentage are chancers? The answer is 10 percent but I'm sure your answer will be entertaining.



    full rent?

    or a fraction of the rent?

    you do your points little service when you are so transparent tbh


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