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Bletchley Park

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  • 08-04-2008 10:05am
    #1
    Dinter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,698 ✭✭✭


    I was thinking that a thread like this might be good idea to have here.

    A place to ask all your WWII questions that have been bugging you and you can’t find the answers to elsewhere.

    If anyone else wants to prune this, change it or add to it go ahead.

    So if you want to know why a German Tiger would run from a German Mouse or which two main belligerents in WWII are still officially at war today, then this is the place to ask.

    Anyway my question is:

    At one stage Hitler demanded that an army on the Eastern front defend a city even though it was surrounded and besieged by a far larger Russian army. His Generals wanted to retreat but they were ordered not to. It was resupplied by air and managed to hang on until relieved. This happened before Stalingrad and is thought to be one of the main reasons he placed such insane confidence in the Sixth Army’s ability to hold. I cannot for the life of me remember where it was.


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    #2
    ojewriej
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,468 ✭✭✭ojewriej


    Are you thinking of Charkow (Kharkov)?

    BTW, good idea for a thread.


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    #3
    peasant
    Registered Users Posts: 17,819 ✭✭✭✭peasant


    Dinter wrote: »
    or which two main belligerents in WWII are still officially at war today, then this is the place to ask.

    Well ..Germany never signed a peace treaty ...only a truce :D


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    #4
    Dinter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,698 ✭✭✭Dinter


    peasant wrote: »
    Well ..Germany never signed a peace treaty ...only a truce :D

    Apparently the Soviet Union and Japan have never settled any peace treaty between them. Soviets refused to sign or ratify the recognised one because of concerns with how China was treated. (That's if you take the Soviet's invasion as a declaration of war)

    Also hilariously enough, I'm nearly sure that Italy declared war on Japan in early 1945 and has never revoked that. I'm surprised the Japanese can sleep at night.
    ojewriej wrote: »
    Are you thinking of Charkow (Kharkov)?

    I'm not sure to be honest. I thought it was in the Caucausus but could be miles wrong . . . :confused:


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    #5
    trout
    Registered Users Posts: 9,922 ✭✭✭trout


    Dinter wrote: »
    Anyway my question is:

    At one stage Hitler demanded that an army on the Eastern front defend a city even though it was surrounded and besieged by a far larger Russian army. His Generals wanted to retreat but they were ordered not to. It was resupplied by air and managed to hang on until relieved. This happened before Stalingrad and is thought to be one of the main reasons he placed such insane confidence in the Sixth Army’s ability to hold. I cannot for the life of me remember where it was.

    Like ojewriej says, I think you're referring to Kharkov, May 1942 ... in which Paulus was active, having been newly promoted. He gained such a reputation at Kharkov, it made him prime candidate for commanding the Sixth Army assault on Stalingrad.

    I thought the Caucasus oil-fields were the original target for the Sixth Army, from which Paulus was ordered to divert and take Stalingrad, rather than leave it behind as a launch pad for counter-attacks.


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    #6
    kowloon
    Registered Users Posts: 13,280 ✭✭✭✭kowloon


    Dinter wrote: »
    Also hilariously enough, I'm nearly sure that Italy declared war on Japan in early 1945 and has never revoked that. I'm surprised the Japanese can sleep at night.

    I believe there was a village on the border of Scotland/England that was still fighting the Crimean war until the eighties.
    The declaration was separate due to the village being contested.
    There was a formal peace treaty signed and the "carnage" was brought to an end :D
    Must try and find the book it was in, can't remember the place name.
    Someone was quoted as saying "The Russians can now sleep safely at night" (or something along those lines, The above quote reminded me of it)

    anyone remember the name by any chance?


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    #7
    TerrorFirmer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,930 ✭✭✭✭TerrorFirmer


    This is what you're thinking of.

    Demyansk Pocket.

    Not quite sure how Kharkov comes into it, there was no airlifts during the Soviet offensive in May 1942...it was crushed.


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    #8
    ojewriej
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,468 ✭✭✭ojewriej


    TerrorFirmer wrote: »
    This is what you're thinking of.

    Demyansk Pocket.

    Not quite sure how Kharkov comes into it, there was no airlifts during the Soviet offensive in May 1942...it was crushed.

    You are right. I focused on the 6th army involvement, and 2nd battle of Kharjov was the closest to what thge OP described.


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    #9
    Lockstep
    Registered Users Posts: 9,029 ✭✭✭Lockstep


    Why were the Italiens so godawful?


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    #10
    ojewriej
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,468 ✭✭✭ojewriej


    I was actually thinking about it myself, after talking to an Italian friend.

    I think, in short, their heart just wasn't in it. It wasn't their war really and they didn't care.


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    #11
    Dinter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,698 ✭✭✭Dinter


    TerrorFirmer wrote: »
    This is what you're thinking of.

    Demyansk Pocket.

    Not quite sure how Kharkov comes into it, there was no airlifts during the Soviet offensive in May 1942...it was crushed.

    That's it Terror.

    Thanks for that.


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    #12
    Manchegan
    Registered Users Posts: 240 ✭✭Manchegan


    kowloon wrote: »
    I believe there was a village on the border of Scotland/England that was still fighting the Crimean war until the eighties.
    The declaration was separate due to the village being contested.
    There was a formal peace treaty signed and the "carnage" was brought to an end :D
    Must try and find the book it was in, can't remember the place name.
    Someone was quoted as saying "The Russians can now sleep safely at night" (or something along those lines, The above quote reminded me of it)

    anyone remember the name by any chance?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berwick-upon-Tweed#State_of_war_with_Russia


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    #13
    TerrorFirmer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,930 ✭✭✭✭TerrorFirmer


    kickoutthejams wrote: »
    Why were the Italiens so godawful?

    A very good question. What someone else said about about their heart not being in it is actually probably the primary reason; morale and discipline played a large part even with hardware deficiencies, especially in secondary theaters.

    Their equipment was poor, their training was poor. Their tanks were rubbish - lightly armored, bad armament, most of them didn't even have sand filters so you can imagine when they arrived in Africa - next to useless. Their Navy was decent, but lacked modern equipment, and a lot of it was destroyed early in the war. Airforce was outdated....strong on paper but only a few hundred planes were comparable to contemporary combat planes, in comparison to the 1000's other countries had. More importantly, Italian industry was not capable of supporting a war.

    Look at the disaster that befell them in their abortive attempt to invade Egypt - hundreds of thousands captured by a few dozen thousand British (only about 60% of which were combat forces). Mostly due to lack of interest, most documented cases have instances of huge numbers of Italian soldiers surrendering to tiny British forces at the first sign of hostilities, abandoning the armour at the slightest aggression, etc. Just last night I was reading a book actually, that detailed an entire Italian convoy either abandoning their tanks and armored cars and fleeing, or retreating instantly, when they came under attack from two British tanks. Also cases of Italian soldiers surrendering, already with packed bags!

    Obviously some units did fight well, but as a whole, dreadful army.


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    #14
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    kowloon wrote: »
    I believe there was a village on the border of Scotland/England that was still fighting the Crimean war until the eighties.
    The declaration was separate due to the village being contested.
    There was a formal peace treaty signed and the "carnage" was brought to an end :D
    Must try and find the book it was in, can't remember the place name.
    Someone was quoted as saying "The Russians can now sleep safely at night" (or something along those lines, The above quote reminded me of it)

    anyone remember the name by any chance?
    Manchegan wrote: »
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berwick-upon-Tweed#State_of_war_with_Russia

    Scilly ended their wa with the Dutch in 1986, after 350 years! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Hundred_and_Thirty_Five_Years%27_War


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    #15
    Heisenberg.
    Registered Users Posts: 7,541 ✭✭✭Heisenberg.


    This post has been deleted.


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    #16
    ojewriej
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,468 ✭✭✭ojewriej


    The Scientist wrote: »
    Have all Wehrmacht buildings been destroyed?
    I think i remember years ago watching a programme about the German govt. in the 50's, and that they had most of Germanys Nazi Buildings/sites of interest obliterated.

    Can one not go and see the eagles nest or other sites of interest?

    Most of the Nazi buildings in Germany were destroyed - it was done mainly to deny neo-nazis places to "worship".

    Eagles' Nest is a restaurant now, if you'll go there you won't find any mention of it's past. There are local guides who will give you unofficial tour, but apparently it's illegal to do it in German - again, because of neo-nazis.

    But if you know where to look, you will find quite a lot of nazi buildings still in use. For example, a lot of Police stations in Poland belonged to gestapo during the war. I've seen the one in Wroclaw (Breslau), there are still torture chambers in the basement, being used as a storage now.

    I almost forgot about Wolfschanze - that's the place where Staufenberg tried to kill Hitler, it's open for tourists.


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    #17
    Heisenberg.
    Registered Users Posts: 7,541 ✭✭✭Heisenberg.


    This post has been deleted.


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    #18
    peasant
    Registered Users Posts: 17,819 ✭✭✭✭peasant


    Most of the "Reichsparteitaggelaende" in Nuremberg is still there:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_party_rally_grounds#Zeppelin_Field


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    #19
    kowloon
    Registered Users Posts: 13,280 ✭✭✭✭kowloon


    The Scientist wrote: »
    I know it was the right thing to do but its a shame that the history of places like that have been completely 'forgotten'.

    I disagree, I think censoring the past is always the wrong thing to do.
    Banning often has the opposite effect and creates a minority who can claim victimisation, recruits flock to the underdog fighting the good fight. The holocaust denial laws are another example. There are plenty out there thinking that these laws wouldn't exist unless there was something more to them. I don't think Neo-Nazis and holocaust conspiracy theorists would be taken so seriously if they were given enough rope to hang themselves.


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    #20
    John 187
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 202 ✭✭John 187


    I just doing research on WW2 and was just wondering were there ever German POW in Ireland during WW2? I look around and they seem to say only in the north of Ireland. Just wondering can anybody can help it would be a great help. Thanks.


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    #21
    Dr Strange
    Registered Users Posts: 3,427 ✭✭✭Dr Strange


    John 187 wrote: »
    I just doing research on WW2 and was just wondering were there ever German POW in Ireland during WW2? I look around and they seem to say only in the north of Ireland. Just wondering can anybody can help it would be a great help. Thanks.

    O yes there were. Have a look at one of TG4's prgrammes. I think it was called the Shamrock and the Swastika. Also, there are some information posters regarding Operation Shamrock in Glencree Centre for Reconciliation.

    You'll probably find lots of references to the Curragh and the prisoner camps there. Yes, there were German POW's in Ireland only they were guests of the nation because of Ireland's neutrality. Some even stayed in Ireland after the war and integrated by marrying local girls.


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    #22
    John 187
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 202 ✭✭John 187


    Thank you very much, Im going to google that. If anybody else has any other feel free to add. Thanks again.


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    #23
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    There is a German war cemetary in Glencree as well, worth a visit if you get a chance.


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    #24
    Dr Strange
    Registered Users Posts: 3,427 ✭✭✭Dr Strange


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    There is a German war cemetary in Glencree as well, worth a visit if you get a chance.

    Nice, I just linked to it here as well:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=61652607&postcount=25

    ;)


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    #25
    BlaasForRafa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭BlaasForRafa


    ojewriej wrote: »
    Most of the Nazi buildings in Germany were destroyed - it was done mainly to deny neo-nazis places to "worship".

    Eagles' Nest is a restaurant now, if you'll go there you won't find any mention of it's past. There are local guides who will give you unofficial tour, but apparently it's illegal to do it in German - again, because of neo-nazis.

    But if you know where to look, you will find quite a lot of nazi buildings still in use. For example, a lot of Police stations in Poland belonged to gestapo during the war. I've seen the one in Wroclaw (Breslau), there are still torture chambers in the basement, being used as a storage now.

    I almost forgot about Wolfschanze - that's the place where Staufenberg tried to kill Hitler, it's open for tourists.

    Most of the Nazi buildings are gone but there are still military buildings from ww2 left in germany.

    Theres a huge flak tower overlooking the St.Pauli football ground in Hamburg (learned that from fourfourtwo magazine of all places.) You can see in the photo that I link to where the 128mm and 88mm would have been placed on the roof. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1c/Flakbunker-Heiligengeistfeld-Hamburg.jpg

    Also the ruins of the largely underground Heer headquarters at Zossen still exist

    Not a wehrmacht building per se but there is a memorial to the u-boat sailors in Kiel www.pbase.com/kstapleton/image/79077070 afaik there are several Afrika Korps memorials in north africa as well.


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    #26
    Bigdeadlydave
    Closed Accounts Posts: 611 ✭✭✭Bigdeadlydave


    Why was Rudolf Hess imprisoned for so long, or more specifically were people calling for release on humanitarian grounds?
    And am I right in saying he killed himself?


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    #27
    hinault
    Registered Users Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    Bigdeadlydave wrote: »
    Why was Rudolf Hess imprisoned for so long, or more specifically were people calling for release on humanitarian grounds?
    And am I right in saying he killed himself?


    There were many representations made to release Rudolf Hess.

    Several members of Churchill's cabinet subsequently made representations
    to the Soviets to release Hess.
    In the 1970/80's pressure was applied by international politicians like Mitterand, Kohl and Reagan.
    The Soviets refused to release Hess, on the basis that Hess stated that he was not prepared to disown his actions as his deputy to Hitler.

    When Hess died in Spandau, his family claimed that he had not died of natural cases and they allege that Hess was murdered.


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    #28
    Bigdeadlydave
    Closed Accounts Posts: 611 ✭✭✭Bigdeadlydave


    I did a little reading and it doe seem a bit strange that a 90 year old man was able to hang himself when apparently he had very bad arthritis. Although I read that on the wiki so no doubt thats wrong.

    Il havta get my hands on the book the warden wrote, "The loneliest man in the world" I think its called.


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    #29
    DaveyCakes
    Registered Users Posts: 191 ✭✭DaveyCakes


    Heisenberg. wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    http://www.kehlsteinhaus.de/en/

    This site has a good range of sites that can be visited...

    http://www.thirdreichruins.com/


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    #30
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    DaveyCakes wrote: »
    http://www.kehlsteinhaus.de/en/

    This site has a good range of sites that can be visited...

    http://www.thirdreichruins.com/

    In case anyone is making this trip, you should note that Kehlsteinhaus is only open to the public for limited periods each year. The winding mountain road does not take tour buses all year round but only in the high summer months. It's advisable to check ahead as each year the dates move.


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    #31
    tac foley
    Registered Users Posts: 5,504 ✭✭✭tac foley


    John 187 wrote: »
    I just doing research on WW2 and was just wondering were there ever German POW in Ireland during WW2? I look around and they seem to say only in the north of Ireland. Just wondering can anybody can help it would be a great help. Thanks.

    You'll need to read 'Guests of the State' by T. Ryle Dwyer.

    tac


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