Scottish independence

sam1986uk · 28-12-2020 4:11am

I predict the Independence polling will go back down to a normal 45% next year when the average pleb realizes that Brexit is not a disaster and they're still buying tomatoes and tangerines in Tesco whilst planning their next holiday in Tenerife.

listermint · 28-12-2020 9:36am

What will you be voting. After all your a Scot...

First Up · 28-12-2020 10:23am

sam1986uk wrote:

I predict the Independence polling will go back down to a normal 45% next year when the average pleb realizes that Brexit is not a disaster and they're still buying tomatoes and tangerines in Tesco whilst planning their next holiday in Tenerife.

They won't be doing as much of that if they have lost their jobs.

Sam Russell · 28-12-2020 12:43pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Scotland will not be allowed to keep sterling while rejoining the EU. Scots are very unlikely to vote leave if they have to take the jump into the Euro too.

Scotland can have their own currency. Of course they can if they are an independent nation in charge of their own destiny. That is what voting for independence is all about.

The new Scottish currency can be linked to any major currency, or a basket of currencies - it is up to them once they are independent. Of course the financial markets may or may not take a dim view of their choices, but they can adjust them based on their trading pattern.

That is what independence would mean, and that is what the Scottish electorate would be voting on.

They voted to stay in the EU, but were forced to leave by Westminster. Their views on the type of Brexit they favoured were not just ignored, they were not even consulted. That is the kind of issue that will increase the vote for independence.

28-12-2020 1:34pm

I think they mean a future requirement to joining the EU would require adopting the euro.

Capt'n Midnight · 28-12-2020 1:52pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Scotland will not be allowed to keep sterling while rejoining the EU. Scots are very unlikely to vote leave if they have to take the jump into the Euro too.

Please explain this with reference to the fact that Scotland already produces it's own notes and by law they are backed up by an equal amount of English Sterling.

So tethering to English Sterling is trivial even if the English don't want to do it. Just like we did.

Switching to the Euro would not be desirable while other Sterling areas are the main trading partners. And it would only be possible when the convergence criteria were met. Sweden joined the EU in 1995 and kinda keeps not doing the whole ERM II convergence / Euro thing.

Bulgaria, Croatia, Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland, Romania and Denmark should also be in the Euro but aren't ... yet.

sam1986uk · 28-12-2020 4:58pm

listermint wrote: »

What will you be voting. After all your a Scot...

I actually voted yes in 2014. This time it will be no

Capt'n Midnight · 28-12-2020 5:06pm

SNP will be voting against Brexit Bill

This is a very bad deal for Scotland, which will terminate our membership of the EU, rip us out of the world's largest single market and customs union, end our freedom of movement rights, and impose mountains of red tape, added costs and barriers to trade for Scottish businesses.
...
The Scottish government has claimed the Brexit deal could cost Scotland's economy more than £9bn by 2030 compared with remaining in the EU.

They said a forecast 6.1% drop in GDP was equivalent to losing £1,600 per person.

A Dub in Glasgo · 28-12-2020 5:45pm

The newspapers over here finally started to report on the upcoming court case taken by a member of the public and crowdfunded

Update just arrived in my inbox

Update on Peoples Action on Section 30

Merry Christmas and a Happy Hogmanay when it comes.
This will be the final update for 2020. We're fully on-course for the hearing on the 21st and 22nd of January, although there will likely be a hearing in the interim with respect to some documents. We'll let you know more nearer the time. This will have no effect on the substantive hearing.
In addition, I can confirm that the re-opening of the fundraiser has seen an additional £18000 added to the war chest and it continues to trundle along at pace. We'd appreciate it if you could continue to promote it.
Link: http://www.crowdjustice.com/pas30
I can also confirm that from today, from the different avenues of support, we have officially moved into 5 figures with respect to backing for the case. The case is now supported by over 10,000 people. Woohoo!
As always, I shall update you as more information becomes available, but until then I hope you are all happy, healthy and have managed to find yourself just a modicum of normality in the insanity that is a lockdown holiday.

All the best

Martin Keatings

BonnieSituation · 28-12-2020 6:18pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Scotland will not be allowed to keep sterling while rejoining the EU. Scots are very unlikely to vote leave if they have to take the jump into the Euro too.

Oh right?

The same way Sweden are using the euro...

28-12-2020 9:48pm

sam1986uk wrote: »

I actually voted yes in 2014. This time it will be no

Could I ask you to explain why?

I have read many arguments presented to explain people switching the other way, but I've not yet heard many reasons why someone who supported Scottish Independence in 2014 would now choose otherwise.

sam1986uk · 28-12-2020 10:52pm

emmet02 wrote: »

Could I ask you to explain why?

I have read many arguments presented to explain people switching the other way, but I've not yet heard many reasons why someone who supported Scottish Independence in 2014 would now choose otherwise.

Increasing uncertain world.. Our sphere of influence is diminishing and other world powers are emerging..

It seems insane to separate from our brothers and sisters who share the same island. Why? to become an insignificant little backwater of the EU that does as it's told?

The SNP don't care so much about independence per se. It's just an opportunity to push the fast left agendas onto its people. The only reason the English voted for Brexit and we didn't.. They've experienced the harsh reality of being flooded with hundreds of thousands of Eastern Europeans .. We have not.. We're rural and scarcely populated, immigrants generally don't want to come here.

Imreoir2 · 28-12-2020 10:58pm

sam1986uk wrote: »

Why? to become an insignificant little backwater of the EU that does as it's told?

As opposed to an insignificant little backwater of the UK that does what its told?

Same argument could have been used for Ireland, and yet being a small independant member of the EU is working quite well for us.

The idea of us trading what we have now for what Scotland has is laughable it seems like such a bad deal.

28-12-2020 11:23pm

sam1986uk wrote: »

Increasing uncertain world.. Our sphere of influence is diminishing and other world powers are emerging..

It seems insane to separate from our brothers and sisters who share the same island. Why? to become an insignificant little backwater of the EU that does as it's told?

Do you mean Scotland's sphere of influence? Or Britain's? I don't see how if you were keen on independence in 2014 your sphere of influence has been changed dramatically in the last 6 years? In fact, I wonder what your final question would look like if we simply applied it to Scotland's role and voice within the UK instead?

I have a great many friends who would have wavered and voted no in 2014 due to the economic questions holding strong for them, they've however seen the basis for those questions undermined by a UK gov paying zero heed of any of Scotland's genuine issues with regards to its wishes.

sam1986uk wrote: »

The SNP don't care so much about independence per se. It's just an opportunity to push the fast left agendas onto its people.

The Scottish National Party don't care about Independence? Is it not their very meaning?

sam1986uk wrote: »

The only reason the English voted for Brexit and we didn't.. They've experienced the harsh reality of being flooded with hundreds of thousands of Eastern Europeans ..

Experience of immigration correlated strongly with "Remain" votes within England, areas which had experienced the least immigration were markedly "Leave". I think this requires further questioning.

sam1986uk wrote: »

We have not..

9% of Scotland were foreign born in 2017 - https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/files/statistics/population-estimates/pop-cob-17/pop-cob-nat-17-publication.pdf, England at 14% certainly leading it all the same.

sam1986uk wrote: »

We're rural and scarcely populated, immigrants generally don't want to come here.

Scotland's fantastic (imo) planning laws mean that population densities at urban centres are large, and rural sprawl is not permitted. Its population densities are concentrated in conurbations and built up areas. I don't really understand the argument, and it also doesn't really appear true?

A Dub in Glasgo · 28-12-2020 11:44pm

sam1986uk wrote: »

It seems insane to separate from our brothers and sisters who share the same island

Assuming you are correct about voting yes in 2014, you must have been insane then?

I do not know anyone who has changed their mind on independence due to no longer wanting to be independent. I know plenty in my job who have observed with shock how the view of the people in Scotland have been ignored since 2014 and have now decided they would rather take their chance as an independent country

sam1986uk · 28-12-2020 11:50pm

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Assuming you are correct about voting yes in 2014, you must have been insane then?

I do not know anyone who has changed their mind on independence due to no longer wanting to be independent. I know plenty in my job who have observed with shock how the view of the people in Scotland have been ignored since 2014 and have now decided they would rather take their chance as an independent country

I was younger, ignorant back then.. like most young people, hold idealistic views about a variety of topics like immigration, the EU, government, welfare, etc.

I've grown up, seen the world, gained life experience, and see the world for what it is.

I'm now Conservative voting

9% of Scotland were foreign born in 2017 - https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/files/...ublication.pdf, England at 14% certainly leading it all the same.

Doesn't tell the whole story for a variety of reasons

A Dub in Glasgo · 28-12-2020 11:51pm

Did I read earlier that you are now resident in Ireland?

sam1986uk · 28-12-2020 11:52pm

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Did I read earlier that you are now resident in Ireland?

My mother is from Ireland so I feel a close affinity with Ireland.. I visit there often (well i did)

29-12-2020 12:29am

sam1986uk wrote: »

Doesn't tell the whole story for a variety of reasons

Could you tell us the story that you think needs to be told?

I note you've not responded to my other points - any specific reason?

sam1986uk · 29-12-2020 12:38am

emmet02 wrote: »

Could you tell us the story that you think needs to be told?

I note you've not responded to my other points - any specific reason?

What do you want me to say? Non-EU immigration plays a part in attitudes towards European immigrants post 2004...

Imagine already feeling disenfranchised and displaced in your own communities by people from the third-world and getting flooded with Eastern Europeans.

I've worked all over GB .. we have nothing comparable to places like Luton, Peterborough, Wrexham in Scotland.

We only have Govanhill.

29-12-2020 12:41am

sam1986uk wrote: »

What do you want me to say? Non-EU immigration plays a part in attitudes towards European immigrants post 2004...

Imagine already feeling disenfranchised and displaced in your own communities by people from the third-world and getting flooded with Eastern Europeans.

I've worked all over GB .. we have nothing comparable to places like Luton, Peterborough, Wrexham in Scotland.

We only have Govanhill.

Comparable in what sense?

BonnieSituation · 29-12-2020 1:21am

sam1986uk wrote: »

Increasing uncertain world.. Our sphere of influence is diminishing and other world powers are emerging..

It seems insane to separate from our brothers and sisters who share the same island. Why? to become an insignificant little backwater of the EU that does as it's told?

The SNP don't care so much about independence per se. It's just an opportunity to push the fast left agendas onto its people. The only reason the English voted for Brexit and we didn't.. They've experienced the harsh reality of being flooded with hundreds of thousands of Eastern Europeans .. We have not.. We're rural and scarcely populated, immigrants generally don't want to come here.

The diminishing influence has been caused by English votes for Brexit. So instead of trying to become more influential by being an independent State and try and rectify these mistakes, you have now come to the conclusion that continuing to tie yourself to the ball that caused the problem on the first place, is preferable.

Forgive me if I can't see beyond this major flaw in your newly discovered right-wing and clearly xenophobic attitude.

None of what you speak of makes a lick of sense, like most anti-immigrant posts and posters.

sam1986uk · 29-12-2020 1:42am

BonnieSituation wrote: »

The diminishing influence has been caused by English votes for Brexit. So instead of trying to become more influential by being an independent State and try and rectify these mistakes, you have now come to the conclusion that continuing to tie yourself to the ball that caused the problem on the first place, is preferable.

Forgive me if I can't see beyond this major flaw in your newly discovered right-wing and clearly xenophobic attitude.

None of what you speak of makes a lick of sense, like most anti-immigrant posts and posters.

Oh dear, it was inevitable..

BonnieSituation · 29-12-2020 1:46am

sam1986uk wrote: »

Oh dear, it was inevitable..

So you don't disagree with what I posted then?

Capt'n Midnight · 29-12-2020 2:05am

sam1986uk wrote: »

Increasing uncertain world.. Our sphere of influence is diminishing and other world powers are emerging..

It seems insane to separate from our brothers and sisters who share the same island. Why? to become an insignificant little backwater of the EU that does as it's told?

Scotland is an insignificant little backwater of the UK as far as Westminster is concerned. Judging by the way it's been neglected.

Compare the concessions NI got in the Brexit deal to the ones Scotland got.

Podge_irl · 29-12-2020 2:24am

Deleted User wrote: »

Scotland will not be allowed to keep sterling while rejoining the EU. Scots are very unlikely to vote leave if they have to take the jump into the Euro too.

It would make little difference to an independent Scotland whether they used Sterling or Euro. If anything they would have at least some marginal say in the Euro where as they would have none in Sterling.

Scotland is completely ignored in Westminster at the moment. They would at least have an actual seat at the table in the EU.

I would not even have been much of a proponent of Scottish independence at the time. I think the economic arguments and uncertainty were strong but could sympathise with the emotional arguments. But the Westminster govt has taken a large part of the argument for staying (staying in the EU, economic certainty etc) and spat it directly in the face of every Scottish person.

A Dub in Glasgo · 29-12-2020 8:28am

sam1986uk wrote: »

We only have Govanhill.

Who is the 'we'?

First Up · 29-12-2020 9:03am

Podge_irl wrote:

I would not even have been much of a proponent of Scottish independence at the time. I think the economic arguments and uncertainty were strong but could sympathise with the emotional arguments. But the Westminster govt has taken a large part of the argument for staying (staying in the EU, economic certainty etc) and spat it directly in the face of every Scottish person.

I think all of that is true but independence now would mean multiple uncertainties. Setting up the institutions of an independent state, re-configuring the political landscape with the SNP's raison d'etre off the table, finding their way in Europe and all while coping with the economic and social disruption of a border with a less than happy and nationalist leaning England.

My guess (and I think my advice) would be to bide their time. The options will become clearer as Brexit bites and some those inclined to cling to what they know may decide that they don't like it very much after all.

The EU will be there to help but will wait to be asked.

TheCitizen · 29-12-2020 11:26am

sam1986uk wrote: »

Oh dear, it was inevitable..

You’re using terms like “flooded with people from Eastern Europe”. That’s racist xenophobic language, there’s no two ways about it.

Your username is sam1986UK? and you expect us to believe you voted Yes to Scottish Independence in 2014, you’re havin a laugh mate. Voted Yes in 2014 and would now vote No? Even if you’re actually bona fide in what you claim you’re very much in the minority in that scenario. Recent consistent polling would back that up. You got plenty of replies though, fair play.

TheCitizen · 29-12-2020 11:29am

First Up wrote: »

I think all of that is true but independence now would mean multiple uncertainties. Setting up the institutions of an independent state, re-configuring the political landscape with the SNP's raison d'etre off the table, finding their way in Europe and all while coping with the economic and social disruption of a border with a less than happy and nationalist leaning England.

My guess (and I think my advice) would be to bide their time. The options will become clearer as Brexit bites and some those inclined to cling to what they know may decide that they don't like it very much after all.

The EU will be there to help but will wait to be asked.

They won’t be getting a Referendum any time in the immediate future. Even if one is announced it’d be a year or so in advance. They don’t need to bide their time pushing for it and calling for it.

Scottish independence

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