Freemasons: Evil secret society or misunderstood nice guys...

Von · 25-11-2002 9:41pm

A fairly well connected bloke told me that every year a bunch of society's high achievers are invited to join some society or other based I think in TCD. They do charity work and the like. The initiation ceremony involves having brandy poured into your arse then being told to do a "party trick". Is that the masons? Or somebody else?

One of the most prominent idiots to complain about the Sex Pistols and punk rock turned out to be a mason boss. the name escapes me. Directly responsible for keeping God Save The Queen from number 1 I reckon.

Why are the Knights Of Columbanus "nutters"? Emily O'Reilly wrote a book about them and how they've used their wealth and power to resist secularism and liberalism and keep control of schools and hospitals. Is it unreasonable to assume that the masons operate on similar lines to protect their interests? Even if that means conflicting with national interests?

And why is Mr.Icke's made up mumbo jumbo more ridiculous than say catholicism's or proddyism's made up mumbo jumbo?

Nevyn · 25-11-2002 10:09pm

Originally posted by DeVore

WTF has the Orange Order got to do with this thread?? They both use the word LODGE is about all I can find.

DeV.

The Orange order the Purple order and the Black order are all froms of Freemasonary. They all have the same roots and traditions that have changed a lil from the main stream over the years.
The Klu Klux Klan started out as free masons.

there was two books written that detailed the history, cult and
scandal of the freemasons.

On the Plus side they appear to be like an old boys club they admit Male members over 21 of a certain goodstanding, and of indepent means . They have many members in what was considered white collar professions and they all look out for each other. Excellent for networking, and yes they do charitible works.

The problem that arose in the UK in the late 80's early 90's was that Freemasons as part of thier Oaths swear to uphold thier brothers in the lodge and in the masons above all others.

In the Uk you had a lot of big crimnal types in lodges with upper ranking policemen and they were all looking after their brothers.
This is all public record and was in the papers.
So the policemen got together and started froming thier own lodges, so there is still the whole who is in the club and who isnt and who will promot and support if not your lodge brother ?

The Freemasons as a rule do not admit women but exception was made when the current Queen of england was instated, and a ladies leauge was formed. Before that the only ladies that were allowed was Lodge members ladies wives at certain functions.

The only member of the royal family in england that came out about being asked to join the Freemasons Was PRince Charles and he spoke publicly about it and the fact that he refused for he would not comprise himself in such a way. ( about the only thing i respect him for)

Yes they are not currently fussy about religion but as the website state you must belive in a supreme being toherwise you could swear thier oaths.

So they might be nice and legit, currently they are trying to go public and gain back the creditibly and respectiblity they had before the police scandals. but the danger is that if you join and you benifit from your membership what will asked of you in return as in to support your lodge brother ?

bonkey · 25-11-2002 11:08pm

Originally posted by Thaed
The problem that arose in the UK in the late 80's early 90's was that Freemasons as part of thier Oaths swear to uphold thier brothers in the lodge and in the masons above all others
....
but the danger is that if you join and you benifit from your membership what will asked of you in return as in to support your lodge brother ?

Now, see, this takes one of the things I have noticed in all the reading Ive done about these guys (which isnt, admittedly, all that detailed), and turns it about face into some vague conspiracy again.

The Freemasons swear to uphold each other, but they also swear not to use their membership to influence and gain power.

Now, this has a large loophole in it. If I, as a freemason, were interviewing two people for a job, and one was a freemason also...what are the implications. They are that he cannot directly ask me to be swayed by his membership....but I must "uphold" him...which influences me anyway.

I wouldnt necessarily stretch this as far as the police scandals imply, but the question is there....if upholding your "brother" is of higher importance than all else, where does that stop?

(As an aside, one would have to ask how the Freemasons could include these criminal figures as "men of good stature")

Now - dont get me wrong...I'm not necessarily saying this does happen, nor that it is even necessarily wrong, but it is something I have a problem with about the Freemasons - the lack of clarity in this particular area.

jc

The Corinthian · 25-11-2002 11:32pm

The problem with trying to define freemasonry is that it’s a rather wide ranging paradigm that in many respects defies definition (and hence not really a paradigm

). I know and have known freemasons in the past and would echo the sentiments of seeing it as a benign old boys club. The Knights of Columbanus (the Roman Catholic response to freemasonry) is much the same.

Given this the Orange Order would also be born from freemasonry, as would the Klu Klux Klan, both of which that have ideologies that contain undertones of ethnic purity, to one degree or other. Then we also have groups such as the P2 Masonic lodge that influenced Italian politics from the end of World War II, was implicated in collusion with the CIA and saw Roberto Calvi hanging from a bridge in London with pieces of masonry in his pockets.

So I think it would be both unfair and unwise to lump them in together - unfair to the benign and unwise in dealing with the more sinister orders.

sceptre · 26-11-2002 2:17am

Originally posted by The Corinthian
Then we also have groups such as the P2 Masonic lodge that influenced Italian politics from the end of World War II, was implicated in collusion with the CIA and saw Roberto Calvi hanging from a bridge in London with pieces of masonry in his pockets.

And with the Banco Ambrosiano scandal (which led David Yallop to conclude that Freemasons had killed John Paul I. David Yallop does have tendencies to see conspiracies everywhere mind you) - see here for (at least) conjecture on the events. The David Yallop book ("In God's Name") (you'll either believe it or laugh at it) is probably worth a read though, I haven't read it since I was 12 - found it interesting at the time as the bishop of Cloyne (including Mallow) when I read it had been John Paul I's secretary in 1978.

The Freemason hierarchy was fairly quick to expel the entire P2 lodge after details of the corruption emerged - one could still make a case against the freemasons on the basis of the P2/Ambrosiano scandal however given that they are certainly an organisation whose ultimate motives (even if good - and that's still up for discussion) can be twisted by members for their own gain, given that they do conduct themselves in secret. I'll probably get round to that one of the days:) (still very busy with project work:() but a few people (bonkey to name one) have briefly highlighted that already.

As an aside Freemasons were automatically excommunicated from the catholic church from 1917 (canon 2335) until Canon law was amended in 1983 (new canon 1374) and limited the excommunication to people who "plot against the Church" (previously Freemasonry had been specifically named). The automatic excommunication is still in force, at least officially but is now on more of a case by case thing. No-one has actually been excommunicated for being a member since the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith promulgated the 1983 code - make of that what you will.

There had been a similar edict since 1738 (see In Eminenti Apostolatus Specula, Clement XII, 1738 for details (Latin unfortunately)). The catholic church will never officially drop this provision - Leo XII dropped papal infallibility (FYI for the uninformed or hitherto uninterested: "papal infallibility" supposedly means that the Pope, when speaking ex-cathedra on a matter of faith and morals, cannot err) into the equation in 'Quo Graviora' when he confirmed Clement XII's decision. Infallibility was declared by the First Vatican Council as being retroactive to all preceding popes. Contraception will be accepted before any man in a pointy hat living in Rome officially drops the provision.

(in my opinion it's all crap but it's genuinely fun on the extremely rare occasion someone half mentions canon law to me when trying to prove their point - I read it all and learned it all before deciding that organised religion was indeed akin to opium for the masses)

Again as an aside (to reply to DapperGent), George Bush is unlikely to be a mason. He was (& is, I suppose) a member of the Skull & Bones fraternity at Yale, which has some elements in common with freemasonry but nothing of consequence. There have been plenty of US Presidents that were masons - starting with the first one. I'll get to the problems with associating the freemasons with the KKK later

Still have to make that relevant post....:eek:

BuffyBot · 26-11-2002 2:18am

Originally posted by DeVore
I asked my mate if the public could ever go into his lodge. According to him the public is welcome 5 days a week, 9-5 and they have a Museum...

He also says he can bring me in for a drink in the evening (ok, now I'm officially weirded-out but I opened this can of worms, I cant really cry Uncle now!)

DeV.

Dispels the common myth of secrecy and cloak and dagger- yness anyway!

You should go for the drink. As they say, new experiences are good.

DapperGent · 26-11-2002 2:41am

Originally posted by sceptre
Again as an aside (to reply to DapperGent), George Bush is unlikely to be a mason. He was (& is, I suppose) a member of the Skull & Bones fraternity at Yale, which has some elements in common with freemasonry but nothing of consequence.

Now Sceptre I never said that George W. Bush was a freemason. I said that George Bush Snr. was a 1000 year old 12 foot tall Jewish shape shifting lizard, who from time to time (when he feels the need) engages in ritual child abuse so he can recharge his mystical powers.

I must protest that my views on this matter have been so cruelly misrepresented.

Slydice · 26-11-2002 2:57am

DeVore, can i ask you 2 questions (feel free not to answer if they are to close to home - or you feel answering them would damagae your rep;))

Are you a Catholic / Protestant or of another following?

Would you consider yourself more FreeMason than Knight of Comeonbanus or Vice-Versa?

Please don't pick up on those questions the wrong way, I'm just trying to understand your view-point more clearly! (definitly feel free to tell me where to shove the questions if ye like

)

DeVore · 26-11-2002 4:10pm

Originally posted by Slydice
DeVore, can i ask you 2 questions (feel free not to answer if they are to close to home - or you feel answering them would damagae your rep;))

Are you a Catholic / Protestant or of another following?

No problem at all Slydice:

I was born a Catholic, educated by Jesuits and I rejected the need for middle men in my spirituality at about 18.
I think of myself as agnostic which means I believe there is something else out there, I'm just not sure we can ever know what it is. I'm also not convinced it particularly cares about humans.
(this is an EXCELLENT explanation of agnosticism: http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic )

I dont go to Mass though I will attend friends marraiges etc under any religious doctrine.
I've adopted Christian morality as part of my personal code (along with a sprinkling of eastern philosophy and my own personal feelings).
If you asked me to define that I would say:

" Treat others as you would like to be treated, so long as they wish it". (the latter bit is tagged on to close a logical hole which would allow sado-masochists to run around whipping people (that being how they would like "to be treated")).
I've given this a lot of thought you see

If thats too complex then "Be Nice" is a close approximation.

Would you consider yourself more FreeMason than Knight of Comeonbanus or Vice-Versa?

Please don't pick up on those questions the wrong way, I'm just trying to understand your view-point more clearly! (definitly feel free to tell me where to shove the questions if ye like ) [/B]

Um, I dont follow you... are you talking about the Boards.ie private boards of mates or the real things?

I'll presume you are talking about the real things. I dont want the Boards.ie in-jokes to detract from this topic:

Previously I would have said "to hell with both of them" but the more I read about FM's the more I realise I may have been wrong about them. They are, on the surface, not what I expected.

My personal morals go along these lines:
(btw there is no order to these)

1. You do what you want so long as it hurts noone else.
2. I'll do as I see fit so long as it hurts noone else.
3. I will stop people from hurting other people
4. I will NOT stop people from doing what they want UNLESS they are hurting others.
5. In general I will try to "see fit" to help people who need it.

Now, its number 4 that makes me have a problem with the Knights (and most religious groups) because they profess to want to SPREAD their morality (ie: tell you how you should live even though you arent hurting anyone).

I presumed that the FM was the same, though now it seems they are more akin to my thinking that I believed. I would have been happy to write that off as good PR except for this friend of mine who wont retract his statement of belief in them and isnt making it easy for me to quickly pidgeon-hole him (as I'd like to! hehehh...)

I've been trying to read un-biased information (a lot harder then you think), and the most believeable seems to come from:

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemasonry

While the various styles of Freemasonry around the world may differ in many ways, they all more or less tend towards nondogmatism, albeit often within certain defined limits. This openness has led to friction between Masonry and organizations which view ecumenism with a negative eye, or insist on intolerance towards other forms of belief and worship.

I'd like to see someone prove a link to the KKK cos I cant find even the nutters claiming that. Can anyone offer a trusted source on that?

I have only found this:

In 1775, an African American named Prince Hall was initiated into an Irish Constitution Military Lodge, along with fourteen other African Americans, all of whom were free by birth. When the Military Lodge left the area, the Black gentlemen were given the authority to meet as a Lodge, form Processions on the days of the Saints John, and conduct Masonic funerals, but not to confer degrees or do other Masonic Work. These individuals applied for, and obtained, a Warrant for Charter from the Grand Lodge of England in 1784 and formed African Lodge #459. Despite being stricken from the rolls for non-payment of dues after 1813, the Lodge restyled itself as the African Grand Lodge #1 (not to be confused with the various Grand Lodges on the Continent of Africa) and separated from commonly recognised Masonry. At the present time, it is recognised by some Grand Lodges and not by others, and appears to be working its way toward full recognition. ([1])

which is also from Wikipedia...

On a note about "trust" its very hard to know who to believe, especially on the internet. **** can just be made up as in this:
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxil_hoax
(which has some screamingly funny links off it).

The problem is that I have been trying to find sources that are incisive, critical (in the true sense of the word) and unbaised.
However I keep coming up with stuff like this:
http://www.iahf.com/other/981103a.html
Which while funny, isnt adding to my factual knowledge.
And this:
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0093/0093_01.asp
which (since the fundamentalists dont seem to like them) gives them some kudos from my reactionary side

I'm playing Devils Advocate left right and centre here btw.

DeV.

viruswithshoes · 26-11-2002 6:16pm

Right I'll be real quick but I'll be back.

The masons are non sectarian, anyone can join provided that they believe in god (Who they refer to as "the great architect of the universe" to save god/buddha/allah arguments). It is huge in Frnace which is a catholic country.

The reason that it is mainly prodtestant here is for the same reason that for a long time Catholics wouldn't go to TCD, the church wouldn't let them.

DeVore · 26-11-2002 6:45pm

Viruswithshoes can you tell us a little more about where your knowledge comes from?

Thats a curious name because its one of my favourite expressions when I'm annoyed with man's inhumanity to man (and environment). "Humans, we're just a viri with shoes!".

I heard it somewhere before.

This is really a fascinating topic, I've had a lot of interesting PM's with people and its really getting my mental faculties engaged. There are issues of trust here that I've not really chewed out completely before.

Who can you trust and how do you know?

Personally I only trust one person completely and thats me. After that I trust my family to tell me what they consider the truth. They *can* however be wrong. Come to think of it, so can I. But lets not go there just now.

I trust my mates, the longer I've known them, the more likely I am to trust them. etc....

This is all obvious and all but how *could* a group *prove* that nefarious things *werent* going on. Its almost impossible when you think of it. I'm not specifically talking about the masons either but obviously it would apply to them too.

Equally how could you let the world know that nefarious things WERE going on without sounding like a nutjob.

I dunno, I find this stuff fascinating.

DeV.

Slydice · 26-11-2002 7:11pm

thanks DeVore,

yes i was talkin real life

never be devils advocate, it gets you involved in way to much grief

DeVore · 26-11-2002 7:50pm

Angels fear to clean my boots after I've been out!

I dont back off from confrontation around freedom to discuss most topics... Boards is a good way to do it too.

So why did you ask me those questions? and what do you think of my answers?

DeV.

monument · 26-11-2002 8:03pm

yes its all very fascinating

the only think I trust as even half fact about them is from the bbc...

Freemasons - moral guardians or centre of corruption
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_8000/8063.stm

(yes i know i have posted link this before in admin, but some of you might not have seen it)

DeVore · 26-11-2002 8:40pm

An interesting piece monument. Yes, I'd pretty much trust the BBC more then any other news source. However that piece poses questions without answers. They give both sides of the story without backing either up with hard fact...

So I finished reading it thinking: Well I understand the question now, pity it didnt give me any answers....

DeV.

Sticky · 27-11-2002 1:58am

I imagine the best way to find out what it's all about is to go and join - what harm could it do? You can always leave if you don't like it (can't you?).

And if there is a conspiracy, please tell me. I love conspiracies.

Thanks for the link to
chick.com, I am still wondering whether it's a beautiful parody or not. Hilarious!

viruswithshoes · 27-11-2002 3:20am

Who do I trust? Well my old man for one, he's in the brotherhood and is remarkably candid about what goes on. So the facts re: the masons as I understand them:

A: Non sectarian, anyone can join as per my earlier post, I know of Muslim masons. You must seek out membership, they will not approach you. You must be 21 or 18 if you are the son of a mason. You must be of good character, following his assault conviction footballer Duncan Fergusan was denied membership, there is a whole Scottish / English rite thing going on, the Irish Masons resemble the Scottish rite.

B: Mainly charitable in a look out for your own sort of way. The reason my dad joined was because his father was member and kicked the bucket when he was 7. The Masons educated him, there was a masonic school in dublin that is now closed, generally kids whose education is paid for (in Leinster anyway) attend the likes of Kings Hospital and Wesley in Dublin or Wilsons in Westmeath. These days hardship will get your bastard offspring educated privatly. These are "prod" schools, this is because most irish masons are prodtestant (see my earlier post), but if you want your kid to go to Blackrock/Gonzaga/Belvo then it could be acceptable (not clongowes though, ****ing jesuit bastards

) . They have also paid for some ambulances for the Irish Wheelchair Association.

C: Definate Knights Templer ( a Catholic outfit by the way ) connection, there is a book called the Second Messiah that explores this in great detail, its a fantastic read and gives a likely theory on the creation of the shroud of Turin. The English rite tried to suppress this as it offended the English Monarchy who they were trying to court in the 1800's (Prince Phillip is a member by the way) and traces its history to about 1812 or so, the scottish rite goes back to roughly the time that the Templers were destroyed by Phillip the Fair in France. As a result many of the rituals were lost as they might offend royalty ( they mainly dealt with the "true" story of Jesus of Nazarith instead of what orgainised religion has been feeding us for 2000 years) have been lost.

There is more too it than meets the eye, my dad is a 4th degree mason (there are 35 levels) and he says that he would not be surprised if there really is some freaky world controlling illuminaty x-files **** going on with the higher ups .

E: My Dad has never expressed an interest/desire for me to join, not interesting but obviously he either wants to protect me from the conspiracy, doesn't think that I'd be into the charity bull**** or doesn't want me in his ****ing club.

It is 2.22, I'm tired, I'm going to bed, some of this may not make sense, this is what I understand to be true. Or maybe I'm a 34th degree brother spouting bull**** to throw you all off of the trail.

viruswithshoes · 27-11-2002 3:24am

Oh I forgot, my handle. Bill Hicks.

Was referenced in the Preacher comic book.

Agent Smith also refered to humanity as a virus in the Matrix.

But for me, its Bill Hicks.

sunbeam · 27-11-2002 4:19am

So are there any similar organisations for women?

DeVore · 27-11-2002 1:29pm

Apparently so, but I havent looked into them (being a bloke and all).

Right now I'm fascinated and curious but I'm not about to sign up to anything!!
I am going to go to have a drink this week with my mate and see. As much to buzz my head then to genuinely find out about masonry.

I'm probably thinking about this more along the lines of a Call of Cthulhu investigation (which is a game I have played a lot of!).

Hmmm.... its really hard to know who to trust here but a few friends of mine have fathers in it and they'd be pretty sceptical people and they consider it an old boys club who do the odd good deed to make it more acceptible...

I dunno. I'm going to have a good poke around when I go to the toilets tho

DeV.

Borzoi · 27-11-2002 1:46pm

Looked at their web site yesterday, it does seem like a bunch of harmless old gaffers dressed up like twats - but of course that's what they'd have you believe.

Interesting to find that the Grand Masonic Lodge in Dublin has a mere 67 members, and it's the largest lodge. Even given that this is just one of some 16 Dublin based lodges, the overall membership would be less than the size of your average golf club. Hardly world dominating stuff. Which would also explain their, seeminly genuine, desire for new members.

Oh, Dev, if you are going visiting, maybe you should get a blood test done beforehand. After all, if David Icke is right, and they DO replace you with a 12ft klizard (in disguise) we'd want some way to know if we're getting the real you back.:D

viruswithshoes · 27-11-2002 7:26pm

Originally posted by sunbeam
So are there any similar organisations for women?

The mothers union and the ICA

DeVore · 27-11-2002 10:05pm

Originally posted by Borzoi

Oh, Dev, if you are going visiting, maybe you should get a blood test done beforehand. After all, if David Icke is right, and they DO replace you with a 12ft klizard (in disguise) we'd want some way to know if we're getting the real you back.:D

I always wanted to ask David Icke how they could possibly fit a 12 foot lizard inside my weak and puny body. I mean, all my muscles have atrophied from computer use!

Anyway, unless these Lizards have my memory, he's not going to be able to login. (thats if his claws actually can be typed with).

Fvck actually come to think of it being a 12 foot blood drinking lizard would ROCK!

DeV.

cujimmy · 27-11-2002 11:52pm

Freemasonary is an old and honurable organisatio
Membership is open to all "men of integrity and goodwill, irrespective of colour or creed, on condition that they profess a belief in a Supreme Being". How they choose to worship that supreme being is up to them and is of no interest to other masons

I suspose being a mason is a bit like a club for people who share common interests and more importantly beliefs which are :

Brotherly Love : A true Freemason will show tolerance and respect for the opinions of others and behave with kindness and understanding.

Relief :Freemasons are taught to practise charity, and to care, not only for their own, but also for the community as a whole, both by charitable giving, and by voluntary efforts and works as individuals.

Truth :Freemasons strive for truth, requiring high moral standards and aiming to achieve them in their own lives.

Charity:From its earliest days, Freemasonry has been concerned with the care of orphans, the sick and the aged.

Freemasonry and Society:
Freemasonry demands from its members a respect for the law of the land. Freemasonary principles do not in any way conflict with its members' duties as citizens.

The use by a Freemason of their membership to promote his own or anyone else's business, professional or personal interests is condemned, and is contrary to the conditions on which he sought admission to Freemasonry.

Secrecy:
The secrets of Freemasonry are concerned with its traditional modes of recognition. It is not a secret society, since all members are free to acknowledge their membership and will do so in response to inquiries for respectable reasons. Its constitutions and rules are available to the public. There is no secret about any of its aims and principles. Like many other societies, it regards some of its internal affairs as private matters for its members.

Freemasonry and Politics:
Freemasonry is non-political, and the discussion of politics at Masonic meetings is forbidden.

What else can i say

ps the female equivilent is the order of the eastern star

DeVore · 28-11-2002 4:09pm

Thats what I've been told. Can you tell me where your information comes from? You seem reasonable and knowledgeable, I'd like to know your source for this information (either on this thread or via PM)...

Their website expresses such goals too and they seem laudable so its hard to reconcil that with preconceptions I've had...

DeV.

DeVore · 30-11-2002 12:19pm

Originally posted by viruswithshoes
These are "prod" schools, this is because most irish masons are prodtestant (see my earlier post), but if you want your kid to go to Blackrock/Gonzaga/Belvo then it could be acceptable (not clongowes though, ****ing jesuit bastards ) .

Actually, ironically Blackrock, Gonzaga AND Belvo are all Jesuit outfits (I went to Belvo myself and thought it a fine school to be honest).
Just thought I'd straighten that out

DeV.

lordsippa · 01-12-2002 1:20pm

Not a member <although intruiged>, but... There is an eserotic side to the masons <i did a fair bit of research into this area> which is freely available to members but not actually a part of the group. Crowley's "Golden Dawn" was in fact a masonic order who had (supposedly) disappeared. Crowley himself was never really a mason however as he had joined a fraud lodge set up by an expelled member. So his Golden Dawn had very little to do with the real one <although I think they shared some of the rituals>.

To conclude, 90% of masonic activities are VERY dull, but if you go looking in the right places i'm sure there are some very interesting 12 foot lizards out there.

cujimmy · 02-12-2002 11:14am

Can you tell me where your information comes from?

Sure

Iam Irish and catholic although I live in Scotland, I was asked by a friend in Ireland if I would be interested in becoming a freemason, and through him and my own research learnt most of what I know. I thought long and hard about joining and talked it through with a few folk and decided I would join but things change and my family and work commitments changed and I decided that I couldnt be able to give the commitment necessary to be an active member. When I went to Scotland I was invited to join a lodge in the town I live in. Can I say that on both occasions I pointed out that I was Irish and Catholic and on both occasions was advised that it didnt matter, because the invite was for me as a person and an individual and not because of any other reason. Since then the number of catholics and irish people I have met who are members is astounding.

DeVore · 03-12-2002 8:01pm

So, the consensus seems to be "misunderstood ... if a little odd..."

I'm going down with my mate to the Grand Lodge for a drink soon, I'll let you all know when I do how it goes. I'm sure (from what I've read) that they are nice enough.

If I'm not back, send the Mythos Investigators after me

DeV.

cujimmy · 03-12-2002 9:13pm

Enjoy your night out and ask to see the museum

Freemasons: Evil secret society or misunderstood nice guys...

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