Male low esteem

simu · 07-02-2005 6:29pm

Deleted User wrote:

How many times as a young man, have you been interested in a woman, and behaving in the traditional format (honest, caring, gentle etc) you persue this woman. However, she finds that she can only treat you as a friend, because you're not dashing, adventurous, confident, etc. I've been there and it can be quite demoralising.

It's possible to be honest, caring, gentle AND dashing, adventurous, confident together!

Fewer people believing in hell is also a factor in the increased suicide rate, I'd say.

07-02-2005 6:37pm

It's possible to be honest, caring, gentle AND dashing, adventurous, confident together!

Sure its possible. I'm not saying its not.

What I'm saying is that many people are not born & raised with these factors being part of their makeup. Most people have to work on these aspects of their personality. God knows, I've been actively working on my confidence for the three year plus.

impr0v · 07-02-2005 6:53pm

simu wrote:

Fewer people believing in hell is also a factor in the increased suicide rate, I'd say.

You think that the fact that suicide was considered a sin actually stopped significant numbers of people from carrying it out? Personally, I'd be of the opinion that the only influence the catholic church's enlightened standpoint had on the statistics was to suppress the reporting of suicides by god-fearing relatives of the dearly departed, eager to protect their own place in a similarly pious community.

omnicorp · 07-02-2005 7:42pm

It might have something to do with increasing pressure at work.

Men especially are under pressure to bring in money and provide for a family and are not given leave to take care of newborn babies etc.
They are under pressure to work lonmg hours easily and to be very productive, even to work while sick.
Many people might see this life as boring, hard and with no goals at the end as bills keep stacking up and seeing many people on "TV" getting very succesful.

Zulu · 08-02-2005 12:31am

simu wrote:

It's possible to be honest, caring, gentle AND dashing, adventurous, confident together!

It's also possiable to be thin, fit, sociable, polite, a good mother, a great cook, a good cleaner, and a whore in the sack - while keeping your virginity for your future husband <sic>

simu wrote:

Fewer people believing in hell is also a factor in the increased suicide rate, I'd say.

No it's not, I'd say. In fact - I'd say that has very little/nothing to do with it what-so-ever.

elivsvonchiaing · 08-02-2005 3:05am

simu wrote:

It's possible to be honest, caring, gentle AND dashing, adventurous, confident together!

Fewer people believing in hell is also a factor in the increased suicide rate, I'd say.

I'd believe this to be true. I'm not knocking religion here. Just kicking 7 kinds of sh!te out of it in Ireland!

Anthropologists believe we became monogomous 20,000 years ago ( tv program too lazy to search for link!) Religion has been around for 12,000 years - prove me wrong ok!

We are nurtured by our parents - and are sent to school - we look sideways at a teacher - or a quasi-psychopath teacher who relishes the swing, the smell of, the glorious impact of the leather on the hand. We feel crucified - we realise there's a hell. We are born after 1990. We realise our parents have no control over us - the parental lock works :rolleyes: . They have threatened to lock me in my room - and haven't done so. I don't know it yet but when I have to work in the real world I'm going to hang myself!

I'm not one for slapping kids - but I reckon there are too many parents who want to wrap up their kids - safe from reality - only to have it crash in - in later life!

simu · 08-02-2005 4:31pm

Back to hell - people really used to believe in this in the old and not so old days - see the sermon bit in Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man, for an idea of the kind of things young men were taught about the sufferings they would face in hell. Nowadays, the Catholic Church seems to have abandoned the idea or at least, they put far less emphasis on it.

It's a lot easier to commit suicide if you believe that nothingness rather than endless, unimaginable suffering is what awaits you.

It's also possiable to be thin, fit, sociable, polite, a good mother, a great cook, a good cleaner, and a whore in the sack - while keeping your virginity for your future husband <sic>

Well, yes, it is if you adopt the kids.

Sangre · 08-02-2005 5:14pm

Jesus H. Christ, those men probably killed themselves because they were surrounded by the biggest bunch of whingers EVER. My God, just suck it up and get on with, you're lucky to be alive. You call yourself men...ffs.

omnicorp · 08-02-2005 7:25pm

The world tries to bubble wrap kids from the real world and when they get into it, they are surprised with the stress and hard work. It's no wonder Students are faced with so much debt with all the money they waste and then come crippling debt, there's no light at the end of the tunnel or so it would seem.

elivsvonchiaing · 09-02-2005 1:42am

omnicorp wrote:

The world tries to bubble wrap kids from the real world and when they get into it, they are surprised with the stress and hard work. It's no wonder Students are faced with so much debt with all the money they waste and then come crippling debt, there's no light at the end of the tunnel or so it would seem.

Agree debt is depressing - I'm up to my gills in it right now! Still don't think anyone tops themselves 'coz they are bankrupt - are facing gaol 'coz of debt - think its more like parents shield the kids from reality and when that comes crashing -in....

Don't think it is as simple as that though - parents have ideas, values they want to impart to their kids, kids watch TV get other values from friends - parents are oblivious to external influences - persist with conflicting messages - hence a maelstrom of unresolved emotion. Kids develop an acceptable world view and when they test it - (having assimilated both parents dogma - friends ideas and what's on telly - it all then appears to be completely false)-> suicide.

I only know three people who attempted it - and no-one who achieved it. I'm not sure that gives me a right to post here - but suicide will never be totally prevented - with naive do-gooderness it would probably be accelerated - with real eductation it could be reduced! Imho!

omnicorp · 09-02-2005 7:41pm

our education systemsseem to focus on passing tests and our society seems geared to making more money for me, me, me... People seem to have no time to deal with these problems other than just giving them drugs to "help"

Sleepy · 10-02-2005 12:40pm

On the debt thing. Again, I think this comes down to the unrealistic picture that's painted of the working world to students at both secondary and third level in Ireland. Whilst in college I took out a number of student loans with the idea that "with the massive salary I'll be earning in two years, I'll barely notice the monthly repayment".

Many of us get into debt because we don't have realistic expectations for the future, we still expect to be earning the dot.com salaries that those not even a generation older than us were earning. In my first week of college I was told that I could expect a starting salary of £30,000 a year (Irish punts, not euro) if I graduated with a 2:1. With inflation I initially expected this to be even higher. By final year (and two bank loans later), it became obvious that this wasn't going to be the case. A post-grad later, I started full time employment at a little over half the salary I'd been told to expect. Now I'm not complaining about being underpaid (even though I am), the building up of expectations that the college sold me and the rest of my year was nothing more than marketing spin. We were their customers and they wanted us to think we were getting value for money (or tell us what we wanted to hear). Thing is, a first year student who's probably just turned 18 doesn't realise this and tends to take a representative of their college at his/her word.

So, any student's reading this, don't believe the figures you hear in college. If you can get a starting salary above 22K a year, you're doing well. Sure, you'll hear of higher paid graduate recruitment programs etc but the ones you hear of are the exceptions, not the norm.

The Corinthian · 10-02-2005 1:15pm

One thing to note is that there’s not really the same level of support mechanism for men as there is for women in modern Society. There’s a myriad of support groups specifically catering to women and very few to men. This is due to a combination of feminist self-empowerment of women and men’s macho need to be self-reliant - and speaking of the latter:

Sangre wrote:

Jesus H. Christ, those men probably killed themselves because they were surrounded by the biggest bunch of whingers EVER. My God, just suck it up and get on with, you're lucky to be alive. You call yourself men...ffs.

I’d tend to agree with you for the most part. Personally I’ve never suffered any depression or other issue that I couldn’t deal with on my own (generally though the exercise of nothing more than brute willpower), but it would also be foolish to assume that this is sufficient for all men in all circumstances.

The Corinthian · 10-02-2005 1:29pm

Sleepy wrote:

Many of us get into debt because we don't have realistic expectations for the future, we still expect to be earning the dot.com salaries that those not even a generation older than us were earning.

Unrealistic expectations for the future are an issue, but I think you may be exaggerating them also. Most get into debt because they don’t even do the maths on repayments. Indeed, they never actually think that they may have to repay anything, which is hardly surprising given one can extend a debt and even borrow more for decades as long as you keep up with minimum repayments.

The principle reason people are in debt is that they use it as a source of income rather than capital for an investment (such as a mortgage) - a bridging loan where the other end of the bridge cannot be seen.

omnicorp · 10-02-2005 8:32pm

yep, we need proper education on debt, loans and finance
PROPER, not a business class or two

Moriarty · 10-02-2005 10:42pm

What sort of education do you need, exactly? Don't borrow more than you can afford, don't spend more than you earn. It's hardly quantum frikin physics.

Kell · 11-02-2005 1:20pm

The Corinthian wrote:

Personally I’ve never suffered any depression or other issue that I couldn’t deal with on my own (generally though the exercise of nothing more than brute willpower),

More than likely backed up by a strong support network of colleagues, family etc that share your own belief in yourself. As you mentioned though, not all males have similar circumstances.

K-

The Corinthian · 11-02-2005 1:45pm

Kell wrote:

More than likely backed up by a strong support network of colleagues, family etc that share your own belief in yourself. As you mentioned though, not all males have similar circumstances.

Any support network of colleagues, family etc didn't really play a major part, TBH. However, as mentioned, there is an element of different strokes for different folks.

Zulu · 11-02-2005 2:54pm

The Corinthian wrote:

Any support network of colleagues, family etc didn't really play a major part, TBH.

That my well be true - but how would you have faired if they didn't exist? The existance of close relationships can be enough support without ever being exploited.

The Corinthian · 11-02-2005 3:00pm

Zulu wrote:

That my well be true - but how would you have faired if they didn't exist? The existance of close relationships can be enough support without ever being exploited.

I'm not saying that such support networks are not benificial, only that the need not be a prerequisite to sorting out such issues - they can help, but one can do without if one must. Again with the proviso that this might not apply to all.

Zulu · 11-02-2005 3:06pm

The Corinthian wrote:

I'm not saying that such support networks are not benificial, only that the need not be a prerequisite to sorting out such issues - they can help, but one can do without if one must. Again with the proviso that this might not apply to all.

I know! - Sorry, there's a little confusion here. I agree with you. I'm just making the point (sorry to personalise it by refering to your post) that: Mearly having support available can be a massive help to people suffering. As you yourself said, women have numerous support groups available to them. The same does not apply for men. So if a woman is suffering (assuming they have no friends/family to turn to) there are groups specifly catering to their requirnments. Men in a similar situation don't have the same options.

Sangre · 11-02-2005 5:46pm

The Corinthian wrote:

I’d tend to agree with you for the most part. Personally I’ve never suffered any depression or other issue that I couldn’t deal with on my own (generally though the exercise of nothing more than brute willpower), but it would also be foolish to assume that this is sufficient for all men in all circumstances.

Leaving aside the fact my comment was mostly tongue-in-cheek I'd be in the same situation as you. Never been depressed or even that sad, to be perfectly honest, I can't imagine what depression feels like. Although I've never had anything to be really depressed about I have never dealt with a problem by 'talking' about it or not resolving it myself. In fact, I work better under a bit of pressure. Doing it yourself, imo, leads to better self-awareness etc.,

Anyway, we're straying from the point. All this low self esteem, media influences and unrealised expectations are just part of life, get over it.
And if you're borrowing money you're an idiot if you don't educate yourself fully first.

omnicorp · 11-02-2005 7:26pm

i think media reports on how the worlsd is getting "worse" (it isn't), and that we are all imperfect, ugly, fat, lazy people who could earn more hardly helps.

Ms Beanbag · 12-02-2005 5:35pm

The Corinthian wrote:

One thing to note is that there’s not really the same level of support mechanism for men as there is for women in modern Society. There’s a myriad of support groups specifically catering to women and very few to men. This is due to a combination of feminist self-empowerment of women and men’s macho need to be self-reliant -

to say that men dont have the same support mechanism as women is just an uninformed or/and wrong statement!
As you dont seem to be aware- the following organisations cater for BOTH men and women:

Aware-depression
The samaritains- helplines for any problem
Gam-anon- gambling
AA-alcoholics...
etc etc I can go on.
These are NOT geared solely for women.
if guys want to set up their own specific groups, no one is stopping them!

The Corinthian · 12-02-2005 6:06pm

Ms Beanbag wrote:

to say that men dont have the same support mechanism as women is just an uninformed or/and wrong statement!

Actually it's regrettably true. Certainly I don’t deny that there are numerous mental health organisations that cater to both genders, but many specific areas have few if any representation that specializes in dealing with men, while there are numerous organisations that do so for women. How many organisations specialize in dealing with women’s issues and how many for men’s? For example, how many STI clinics and organisations are there out there specifically for women? How many for men?

if guys want to set up their own specific groups, no one is stopping them!

Golf clubs use similar logic when defending men-only memberships, I would note.

omnicorp · 12-02-2005 6:13pm

exactly, I think some white men feel threatened and forgotten in society,
Rightly or wrongly. And if they complain they feel that they will be branded recist/sexist...
If there was a special award for White music there would be uproar, yet there is such a thing for black music and no one bats an eyelid.
If there was a women only spa, would we be complaining?
Unlikely.
I'm not trying to be racist/sexist, only to highlight that some people feel afraid to critisisce "minorities" or "vulnerable" groups for feel of being branded.

Sangre · 12-02-2005 6:49pm

omnicorp wrote:

If there was a special award for White music there would be uproar, yet there is such a thing for black music and no one bats an eyelid.

Ever hear of Country Music Awards?

omnicorp · 13-02-2005 12:12am

Specifically for white people

Zulu · 13-02-2005 1:36am

Ms Beanbag wrote:

to say that men dont have the same support mechanism as women is just an uninformed or/and wrong statement!
As you dont seem to be aware- the following organisations cater for BOTH men and women:

Aware-depression
The samaritains- helplines for any problem
Gam-anon- gambling
AA-alcoholics...
etc etc I can go on.
These are NOT geared solely for women.
if guys want to set up their own specific groups, no one is stopping them!

Typical, unsympathic, untaught out responce. Your are part of the problem.

This isn't an attack on womens support groups. This is a discussion about the lack of male support groups. Evidently, if this discussion is occuring in the first place, it displays a lack of said groups - or at least, a lack of knowledge about said groups. (Which is as bad as them not being present in the first place: support is only good if it is known about)

Zulu · 13-02-2005 1:39am

Ms Beanbag wrote:

if guys want to set up their own specific groups, no one is stopping them!

...yes, a white, men-only group: conjure up any sterotypes? any prejudices? any resentment?

Male low esteem

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