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What should the penalty be for illegal abortions?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 16,288 ✭✭✭✭ntlbell


    ebmma wrote: »
    Because it is not. Not yet. It has a potential to become one.

    can you enlighten us as to when it becomes a "baby" ?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 631 ✭✭✭ebmma


    ntlbell wrote: »
    can you enlighten us as to when it becomes a "baby" ?


    I do not like your tone and your extreme attitudes.

    And I answered that question earlier. So did other people, I think.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,288 ✭✭✭✭ntlbell


    ebmma wrote: »
    I do not like your tone and your extreme attitudes.

    And I answered that question earlier. So did other people, I think.

    Considering you can't hear my polite and friendly tone i don't see what you have issue with regarding an extreme attitude I don't think not agreeing with allowing people to terminate a life as extreme....


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,288 ✭✭✭✭ntlbell


    CathyMoran wrote: »
    It was always a baby to us. Calling it anything less is just people trying to get away from what they are really doing when they have an abortion.

    this is very important, people like to wrap informal names around these things to protect themselves imo.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 631 ✭✭✭ebmma


    ntlbell wrote: »
    this is very important, people like to wrap informal names around these things to protect themselves imo.


    http://www.google.ie/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&rlz=1G1GGLQ_ENXX251&defl=en&q=define:foetus&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title


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  • Registered Users Posts: 16,288 ✭✭✭✭ntlbell


    Stop the rubbish. If somebody said do you want to see my baby? Where? In my stomach.

    Its a baby when it is born. That is the consensus english language definition of a baby.

    so when you go for your first scan and they show it on the screen what does the nurse/doc call it?

    "there's your little blob..."

    "there's your little faetus it's just a blob of cells"

    they say do you want to see your baby....


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,288 ✭✭✭✭ntlbell




  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,393 ✭✭✭Climate Expert


    ntlbell wrote: »
    so when you go for your first scan and they show it on the screen what does the nurse/doc call it?

    "there's your little blob..."

    "there's your little faetus it's just a blob of cells"

    they say do you want to see your baby....
    They call it a baby to appease the sensitve and emotional mothers.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,288 ✭✭✭✭ntlbell


    They call it a baby to appease the sensitve and emotional mothers.

    so it should be ok for me to use when discussing the termination of a baby?


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,150 ✭✭✭✭Malari


    ntlbell wrote: »
    so when you go for your first scan and they show it on the screen what does the nurse/doc call it?

    "there's your little blob..."

    "there's your little faetus it's just a blob of cells"

    they say do you want to see your baby....

    I think this point was made that if you plan to be pregnant and want a baby then of course you will refer to it as a baby from the word go. You even say "we are trying to have a baby" before you are even pregnant.

    If you are going for a scan and you are clearly distressed and it is unplanned and you are considering an abortion they probably wouldn't refer to it as a baby? ALthough at the time of the first scan I would imagine most pregnant women would know that they are keeping it.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 146 ✭✭tesslab


    Typical for a bloke to be so opionated about something they could never understand. By the way the 25 yr sentence some would like to give to the mother ---What bout the daddy?? No involvement there ever?? Dream on! :mad:


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,288 ✭✭✭✭ntlbell


    Malari wrote: »
    I think this point was made that if you plan to be pregnant and want a baby then of course you will refer to it as a baby from the word go. You even say "we are trying to have a baby" before you are even pregnant.

    If you are going for a scan and you are clearly distressed and it is unplanned and you are considering an abortion they probably wouldn't refer to it as a baby? ALthough at the time of the first scan I would imagine most pregnant women would know that they are keeping it.

    and which has all ready been stated if your keeping it or not doesn't make it a baby or not.. it is or it isn't regardless and if it's brain and spinal cord etc is starting to grow i don't care what you call it that's a human life in my eyes.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,288 ✭✭✭✭ntlbell


    tesslab wrote: »
    Typical for a bloke to be so opionated about something they could never understand. By the way the 25 yr sentence some would like to give to the mother ---What bout the daddy?? No involvement there ever?? Dream on! :mad:

    If you just want to rant about people who haven't been put in the position or won't ever be faced with it please read the thread fully.


  • Registered Users Posts: 146 ✭✭tesslab


    and im sure you've been there. Post directed at you


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,150 ✭✭✭✭Malari


    ntlbell wrote: »
    and which has all ready been stated if your keeping it or not doesn't make it a baby or not.. it is or it isn't regardless and if it's brain and spinal cord etc is starting to grow i don't care what you call it that's a human life in my eyes.

    Yes, you can accept that and still be sensitive to other people's views!

    If your friend's marriage breaks down you comfort them, you don't say "well, we all saw that coming". Language is emotive is the point.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,798 ✭✭✭Mr. Incognito


    Look we've all seen this debate a thousand times in Humanities, Personal issues, After hours wtc.

    The question does not have one answer but many.

    The religions definitions
    The scientific definitions
    Personal experiences that are going to prejudice you one way or another i.e Cathy's husband is adopted.

    What this boils down to is that everyone has a subjective personal view. People have sat down, self reasoned on the evidence and then made a personal choice one way or the other. There is something that happens when conception occurs and when that life becomes a entity with rights is a moral question and indeed a legal one.

    You can argue that a baby is there at conception, birth or somewhere inbetween, and we can argue all day, but in the end ntl is going to think it is murder, ebmma is going to think that is no different from a woman having her period and everyone else is going to stand back ignore the crap out of it and hope the nutters go away.

    The issue is that technolgy has allowed us to end these pregnancies and some women want access to this technology. In some states it is a right, in some it is illegal. Every state has the right to decide for themselves and I think every woman has the right to decide for themself too. Our society is built on choice. We are all free to chose what we want or do not want unless the need of the greater good outweighs the individual or the acts are immoral. What is immoral has changed its definition over time. Consentual homosexuality was only decriminialised in Ireland recently, so too contraception, Its debateable whether abortion will fall too, because unlike heinous crimes like rape or paedophilia where there is a readily identifible tangible victim. It's still debateable whether there is a tangible victim when it comes to early term abortions. Some people are not going to take the chance and disagree with it on principle. Late term abortions are, in my opinion murder, as there is a fully functional human being who can exist outside of the mother in question.

    I think the values must be balanced. Our courts have ruled that the rights of the mother outweigh the right to life of the child in cases where the mother is at risk of suicide or mental health problems. This is not perfect but no government wants to tackle abortion legislation.

    It's a circular argument that must be decided with all available information. Is it a person, a victim if you will. If not, then we should leave the woman decide, and the state should not interfere in that choice. If it is we must protect the rights of the child.

    Personally I think they can meet in the middle. Legislation allowing abortion for up to 8 weeks would, in my opinion be an acceptable compromise. At that stage I do not believe a "child" in any conventional sense exists.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,288 ✭✭✭✭ntlbell


    Malari wrote: »
    Yes, you can accept that and still be sensitive to other people's views!

    If your friend's marriage breaks down you comfort them, you don't say "well, we all saw that coming". Language is emotive is the point.

    I don't comfort my friend if he takes his wife's life.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    ebmma wrote: »
    Laws need to be well defined, they can't exactly say "well, it should be A, but it maybe B or C it is kind of complicated".
    Of course laws need to be defined, and it is the definition that is in question. After all, placing a statistically derived condition is not how laws are normally defined. We don't find a young man guilty of reckless driving because statistically young men are far more likely to be at fault. Neither do the laws surrounding the switching off of life support for a comatose patent simply based upon statistics.
    ebmma wrote: »
    Because it is not. Not yet. It has a potential to become one.
    That's actually what is being debated, so it's has not been accepted as fact. As such, simply stating it as such is not going to get you far.
    Its a baby when it is born. That is the consensus english language definition of a baby.
    Incorrect.
    Phototoxin wrote: »
    if you belive that the fetus is a full human being then it is a logical step to compare it to murder.
    Not necessary. Not all taking of human life is murder. Criminally it can be seen as self defence, manslaughter or even misadventure. Additionally there are circumstances in which it can be seen as just, such as capital punishment.
    Thankfully the state sees that it is important to be compassionate to the rape victims child who is totally innocent of the matter. Punishing the innocent can never be justified.
    Sure it can; the greater good is one classic moral justification where the innocent are punished - civilians die in war, but sometimes this is both unavoidable and necessary.
    ebmma wrote: »
    If you want a baby it is an emotional matter. Emotionally you can call things whatever you feel like.
    Actually that works both ways. One can call it a ball of cells too, if it makes it easier to terminate. People tend to humanize or dehumanize according to their moral perspective - or, more cynically, their self-interest.

    Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to come out as being either pro-choice or pro-life in this discussion, and I've presented both arguments for and against, without prejudice.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,393 ✭✭✭Climate Expert


    incorrect.
    http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/baby?view=uk

    As I said it is a consensus definition.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    As I said it is a consensus definition.
    Do you see a consensus?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 18,150 ✭✭✭✭Malari


    ntlbell wrote: »
    I don't comfort my friend if he takes his wife's life.

    What if she was terminally ill and in a lot of pain and he assisted in her suicide.

    Sometimes I wish I could see the world in black and white, it must be very easy for you.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,393 ✭✭✭Climate Expert


    Do you see a consensus?
    Yes, the major printed dictionaires that define the english language show a consensus.

    Admit when you are wrong.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,288 ✭✭✭✭ntlbell


    Malari wrote: »
    What if she was terminally ill and in a lot of pain and he assisted in her suicide.

    Sometimes I wish I could see the world in black and white, it must be very easy for you.

    People lay in beds every day terminally ill in a lot of pain that doesn't mean we should start playing god and killing them all off.

    The circumstances are _not_ the issue, you can wrap anything around you want it's murder, putting little stories around it to somehow create a moral dilemma doesn't change anything.

    I've watched people terminally ill in pain very close to me I've wanted nothing more than to end their lives, It still affects me ever day of my life. I could of been forgiven for ending that person's life people could take pitty on me and comfort me.

    what you miss is none of this makes it right, it's wrong it's murder regardless.

    can someone quote the aul black and white stuff again i haven't heard enough of it yet.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 631 ✭✭✭ebmma



    ebmma is going to think that is no different from a woman having her period

    This is not at all how I feel about it. Its is not a decision to be taken lightly and without thought.

    I am pretty sure you didn't mean it that way, but your remark is hurtful.:(


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,150 ✭✭✭✭Malari


    ntlbell wrote: »
    what you miss is none of this makes it right, it's wrong it's murder regardless.

    Says you. And actually I don't care what you call it, I would call it a termination to prevent offending people like you. I'll call it murdering a baby just as easily. Same thing as far as you're concerned. Different as far as I'm concerned as I won't be prosecuted for murder for doing it.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    ntlbell wrote: »
    The circumstances are _not_ the issue.

    The circumstances are very much the issue. Life is not black and white. You cannot say that a 12-year old girl, pregnant from being raped is the same as a 32-year old woman, who is financially stable and just doesn't want the baby.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,798 ✭✭✭Mr. Incognito


    This is not at all how I feel about it. Its is not a decision to be taken lightly and without thought.

    I am pretty sure you didn't mean it that way, but your remark is hurtful.

    I know but I was making a point. Im sure you'll forgive me in the context.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Yes, the major printed dictionaires that define the english language show a consensus.
    Well, you've showed us one dictionary that said one thing and I showed another that said another thing. Unfortunately, you'll find, both in print and online plenty of other conflicting definitions. And as respected as the Oxford English dictionary may be, it's no Académie française - ask it to define 'color' for example.

    It's interesting that this debate has become so focused on language though. As I pointed out people tend to humanize or dehumanize according to their moral perspective or self-interest, and language is one of the tools employed. No one is anti-choice or anti-life after all - indeed, neither side even uses the word 'abortion' when describing themselves.
    Admit when you are wrong.
    Actually I've no problem doing so when I am, and I actually did so in another thread, this morning. I'll take your point that a baby can be defined as you say, but as with much in this debate, there is a lot of disagreement and you'll also find plenty of sources, both respected and whacko, that will disagree. So I'm hardly wrong. A bit like the word 'ethnic', I suppose.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    taconnol wrote: »
    The circumstances are very much the issue. Life is not black and white. You cannot say that a 12-year old girl, pregnant from being raped is the same as a 32-year old woman, who is financially stable and just doesn't want the baby.
    Why not? I'm not disagreeing with you, but I do think it important that you argue logically why.

    Also important is to ask if one is morally wrong and the other right, and if so to define why they differ.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 631 ✭✭✭ebmma


    I know but I was making a point. Im sure you'll forgive me in the context.

    I would prefer if you didn't make a point using my name in connection to the way I don't feel.

    I understand what you are trying to say though.


This discussion has been closed.
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