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Curfews

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 256 ✭✭Cow Moolester


    I'm not denying the fact that I am a child in the state's eyes but it doesn't change the fact that they have no right to say I can't go outside when I want, when I've given them no reason to believe I'll cause harm or trouble.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,460 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    Thoie wrote: »

    Identify problem
    (and remember, just because I view this as a problem doesn't mean that everyone does):
    Many children these days believe they have a right to do what they want, when they want (for a few minor examples, see some posts on this thread where people say children have a right to be out whenever they want). This seems to translate in many cases (note, not all), to children who have no respect for other people in society.
    So in my mind the problem is a lack of respect for other people. I'm not saying lack of respect for adults specifically, just lack of respect for anyone else at all.

    If you accept that this is something that you see as a problem but not everyone does (and I think a lot of other people wouldn't think that), then it is simply not appropriate to legislate for it. At best, you should argue for a system which raises awareness about parental responsibility.

    Also, if lack of respect is the problem, you don't cure it by having even less respect for the teenagers.
    Thoie wrote: »
    Find causes:
    We have a few generations of parents who cannot/will not set boundaries, or levels of acceptable behaviour for their children. Some of the reason for this can be put down to parents having less time to spend with their kids, parents not caring, parents honestly believing they're helping their children achieve independence. As an example, witnessing a 6 year old shouting racial slurs is a reflection on the parents rather than on the child. There are many other causes - some of it may indeed just be changing times as suggested.

    Not just a problem with the parents, a lot is also to do with lack of facilities for young people, poor social education in schools and a number of other factors. Kids will be kids, unfortunately, and will always have a tendency to rebel.
    Thoie wrote: »
    Look for a remedy:
    The (unpopular) suggestion I have made is that parents should be responsible for knowing where their children are. There would be legal and financial implications for a parent not knowing where their child is, as that could be seen as not providing enough protection for the child. As I've stated a number of times already, I'm interested in hearing other opinions on the idea (opinions on my personality don't have any particular place in this discussion).

    Again, not something that you can rightly legislate for. Some parents will be good parents, others will be bad. Imposing a blanket obligation like this is unfair, and enforcing it impractical. Apart from anything else, the amount of garda time required to maintain a curfew would be immense, and after all they are not really doing any harm. It's different if the young people are committing offences, but if they are just out and about I see nothing wrong with that.

    Realistically, if someone doesn't want to raise their kids to have respect for other people, imposing a fine on them won't improve the situation, nor will branding them as criminals.
    Thoie wrote: »
    I feel that a lot of people are talking about children's rights, without taking note of the areas where parents/adults are supposed to protect and guide, and in the areas where children are not supposed to cause harm or offence to other people.

    You can't force parents to be model parents, at best all you can do is make sure that they do nothing too bad.
    Thoie wrote: »
    Many people find the notion of curfews abhorrent, I accept that. People think that my leap of logic from "people have no respect" to "let's have a curfew" is wild and uncalled for.

    It's a disproportionate response that has no respect for people's rights, and to be honest is not fully thought through. Hence you will get that response, and rightly so.
    Thoie wrote: »
    So if we start from first principles, and accept (for the sake of this discussion) that there is a problem of lack of respect, what alternative causes and solutions can you come up with?

    Well even if I accept that there is a lack of respect (which I don't), it wouldn't be a lack of respect from all kids, it would only be some. You could campaign to raise awareness of the issue, and/or you could get the gardai to deal with the more troublesome youths while leaving the others alone.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,344 ✭✭✭Thoie


    I'm not denying the fact that I am a child in the state's eyes but it doesn't change the fact that they have no right to say I can't go outside when I want, when I've given them no reason to believe I'll cause harm or trouble.

    If the State decided to bring in legislation like this (and I think we're all agreed that it will never happen), as we live in a democracy then unfortunately they would have that right.

    If legislation was suddenly passed on Monday that all people called Thoie should be hung, drawn and quartered on O'Connell Bridge, they can do that, because we elected them. While I suspect many people here would endorse such a ruling ;), you'd probably find that the government wouldn't last very long after that, as people would start getting a bit worried about what they were up to.

    There are things on the statute books that I disagree with. I personally didn't vote the current government into power, but if I decide to remain living in Ireland, then I have to obey the laws that exist, whether I agree with them or not.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,344 ✭✭✭Thoie


    Some interesting reading, thanks all. Sadly it's past my self-imposed curfew, and I'm heading to bed. Would like to continue this tomorrow if people haven't grown bored by then. In particular a few points of randylonghorn and johnnyskeleton's I'd like to pick up on. Sleep well! Don't get attacked by marauding 5 year olds!


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,460 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    Thoie wrote: »
    If legislation was suddenly passed on Monday that all people called Thoie should be hung, drawn and quartered on O'Connell Bridge, they can do that, because we elected them. While I suspect many people here would endorse such a ruling ;), you'd probably find that the government wouldn't last very long after that, as people would start getting a bit worried about what they were up to.

    No they can't, because we have a constitution which contains a number of rights which cannot be legislated around, one of which prevents the death penalty. People sometimes forget that democracy is not just about elections, but it is also about having a balance of power between government and individual rights (there are also other facets of democracy, but these are among the most important).


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  • Registered Users Posts: 183 ✭✭breadmond


    this idea completely goes against everything that a western democratic country like Ireland stands for. Profiling citizens of the country by age is just plain wrong, why should the majority of a certain section of society have unjust regulations imposed on then just because a few members of that group commit crimes. the OP seems to have the idea that youth crime is the single biggest problem facing society today, but in reality gangland crime and antisocial behaviour by drunken adults is a far bigger issue.

    Imagine if this logic, where sanctions were imposed on a whole section of society due to the actions of a few was applied to say travellers or immigrants, there would be uproar, the youth are a soft target as they cannot vote, and for the most part do not make there voices heard as much as the rest of society.

    I am 18 now but when I was younger, my friends and I would regularly hang around after dark, just talking and causing no bother to anyone. the whole point of living in a free country is that we can don't need "A good reason to be outside after 9". If that logic is applied, then why does anyone need a good reason to be out after dark, going down the road of imposing sanctions like a curfew can only lead to a more opressive and controlling state and don't think any of us want that.


  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 29,509 Mod ✭✭✭✭randylonghorn


    Thoie wrote: »
    If the State decided to bring in legislation like this (and I think we're all agreed that it will never happen), as we live in a democracy then unfortunately they would have that right.

    If legislation was suddenly passed on Monday that all people called Thoie should be hung, drawn and quartered on O'Connell Bridge, they can do that, because we elected them. .
    No, they can't. They don't have that right Thoie, because this is a constitutional democracy and they are elected to govern subject to that constitution.

    They might I suppose in extremis attempt to push it through by force of arms, but if so we as citizens not only have the right but the moral and ethical obligation to resist up and including the use of arms (as both life and liberty would be at risk).

    I would hope that resistance to a curfew would be civil and political rather than armed resistance, but for you, Thoie, we might have to pull out the guns!! :)
    Thoie wrote: »
    While I suspect many people here would endorse such a ruling ;), you'd probably find that the government wouldn't last very long after that, as people would start getting a bit worried about what they were up to.
    Indeed, I venture to think you might be right.
    Thoie wrote: »
    There are things on the statute books that I disagree with. I personally didn't vote the current government into power, but if I decide to remain living in Ireland, then I have to obey the laws that exist, whether I agree with them or not.
    Or choose to campaign to have them changed, as is your right in a democracy; or oppose them by other means up to and including civil unrest, if you feel they are sufficiently unjust; or indeed to oppose them beyond that point, where life and / or liberty are at risk.

    These are the basic ethical principles on which democracies are built, though as I am neither a philosopher or a political scientist, I may not have elucidated them very well.




  • EamonnKeane, if you're going to quote me and respond to me, at least put all my quotes together, rather than mixing them up with someone else's...
    It hardly chimes with other laws either. You can marry at 16, drive at 17, but leave the house after Coronation Street? No way!

    You can marry with the permission of your legal guardian. Again, you can drive with the permission of your legal guardian, and legally you're not to be alone while driving. And per the OP's idea, you would also be able to leave the house after Coronation Street if accompanied by your guardian or another adult.

    [/quote] Because he wants to? Because he had homework? Because TV was on? The State does not own the outdoors.[/quote]

    See above. Answered already.
    I don't need a form of ID. If I am not suspected of a crime, why does a guard need to know who I am? And they're not exactly hard for criminals to fake.

    And if you are suspected of a crime, or some old lady is wondering why you are hanging suspiciously by her front gate?
    There was less crime back then because there were no drugs and many young men emigrated.

    Huh? What decade do you think we're talking about? The famine?
    No drugs? hahahahaha.... *deep breath* hahahahahaha.....

    As for emigration, people have been emigrating for decades and they still are. Why isn't crime lower now? So its only the drugs that are causing the problems in your eyes?
    China and Russia! Land of the free!

    Have you been to either? Russia was dodgy beyond belief, however China was remarkably peaceful. I didn't see or hear of random beatings. Nor any muggings. Hell, there wasn't even any fighting outside of clubs, and their clubs are open from 8pm to 4am... I'm not saying China doesn't have its problems, but Ireland has its own fair share.
    Because unskilled drivers kill people. Because sovereign states restrict entry of foreigners. Cash n carries don't have clubcards.

    Missed my point completely. And some cash n carries require ID to show you are a member and can purchase from their stores.
    I can't see it reducing crime. Skanger kids do not fear the law, or fines, or jail, or gardaí, or their parents. This'll just annoy those who obey the law.

    Wow, big change there. They've been doing that forever. What do you propose that would change it?
    Corporal punishment does not work, because the one who has been hit feels they have been wronged, not that they have done wrong.

    Again you're missing the point. I made these references because someone highlighted restricting peoples choice simply because one segment disagrees with their decision. It was also raised that nobody should be able to tell parents how to raise their children. And yet they have been told. repeatedly.

    I got hit in school for being a twat. So too did my friends. And most of us turned out fine. We learnt what was wrong and what was right, through the punishments & rewards we received. It was a tough system but it worked. I've spoken about said punishments with people my own age and older, and most of us agree that it was a good thing to have. We didn't enjoy it, and we wouldn't want to go through it again, but it did provide a solid form of guidance which is sadly lacking these days.
    And the euthanasia thing is because the govt. see supplying the tools of suicide as equivalent to murder, not because they don't want people to commit suicide.

    See above regarding removal of choice.
    They do it in London and Paris; therefore, it is correct, is that what you're saying? The French police use ID checks to harass blacks and Arabs; they get stopped 5/6 times a day. It's passive-aggressive intimidation.

    Aww jesus. Stop being so... grrr. I used them as examples. I pointed out that other western (because non-western countries weren't good enough) countries employ the need to have ID's.
    No, sometimes they poison them illicitly, or give them three years in a reeducation camp without trial. It's good that you "don't particularly agree" with massive electoral fraud, single-party dictatorship, persecution of religious minorities, destruction of workers' rights. Shows the strong moral backbone your upbringing gave you.

    I've had enough of this.

    Nice of you to make assumptions about what I do or do not believe or agree with. In fact, its nice of you to completely make up your own crap for me to believe in. Because this is what you have just done.

    I didn't say what I believed what was right in the Chinese governments handling of their people. Nor did I say what I believed what was wrong with the country. I made a comment in reference to this thread on one point.

    And this is a reflection of your posting style. I dont think you really read what people post. You scan what is written and then go crazy writing an amazingly righteous reply. Unfortunately, you misquote people, and then reply in a haphazard manner.

    And lastly, do you really want me to start insulting you? If not, stop with the jabs directly at me, and argue the subject.
    People being told it is wrong to do something they know is not wrong? What's more unnatural than that?

    Wow. What a simplistic answer. Hmm... Try this; Genocide - In the case of genocide, those who commited the crime believed themselves to be right for doing what they did. By your reasoning they were correct in doing so.

    I'd still like a clarification, since your answer is too childish, and vague.




  • theesicko wrote: »
    Also Alayah Slow Self-confidence you mention kids robbing pensioners,

    Quote me.

    I'm really getting sick of people making up crap about what I've said. Stick to what I've actually posted. Its a bulletin board. Just hit quote. Its easy.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,931 ✭✭✭✭challengemaster


    For the sake of everyone, I really hope you never ever get into any position with power.


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  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,460 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    For the sake of everyone, I really hope you never ever get into any position with power.

    Let's not go down that road - I think it's clear that Thoie wants to argue her point she is not campaigning to have this curfew brought in.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,460 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    No, they can't. They don't have that right Thoie, because this is a constitutional democracy and they are elected to govern subject to that constitution.

    Beat ya to it!
    Or choose to campaign to have them changed, as is your right in a democracy; or oppose them by other means up to and including civil unrest, if you feel they are sufficiently unjust; or indeed to oppose them beyond that point, where life and / or liberty are at risk.

    These are the basic ethical principles on which democracies are built, though as I am neither a philosopher or a political scientist, I may not have elucidated them very well.

    Democracy does not give you the right to create a risk to life and / or liberty. Ghandi did well for himself because he stuck to his non violent principles. Violence is so rarely the answer (but it can be fun).


  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 29,509 Mod ✭✭✭✭randylonghorn


    Democracy does not give you the right to create a risk to life and / or liberty.
    Ghandi did well for himself because he stuck to his non violent principles. Violence is so rarely the answer (but it can be fun).
    Non-violence would tend to be my preference, tbh.

    However, it has traditionally been argued that where the state sets aside its responsibility to uphold liberty and protect life, the risk has already been created, and citizens have a right to respond in like manner.




  • For the sake of everyone, I really hope you never ever get into any position with power.

    If that's directed at me, it might surprise you that I don't want any such position of power. I'm quite happy with my current life. :D


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,460 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    Non-violence would tend to be my preference, tbh.

    However, it has traditionally been argued that where the state sets aside its responsibility to uphold liberty and protect life, the risk has already been created, and citizens have a right to respond in like manner.

    That's Thomas Jefferson or one of those guys isn't it? I think their argument is more "you have the right to take arms against a tyrant" rather than you can take arms against any injustice you perceive. I guess though it's just a matter of scale.


  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 29,509 Mod ✭✭✭✭randylonghorn


    That's Thomas Jefferson or one of those guys isn't it? I think their argument is more "you have the right to take arms against a tyrant" rather than you can take arms against any injustice you perceive.
    Indeed ...
    ... by other means up to and including civil unrest, if you feel they are sufficiently unjust; or indeed to oppose them beyond that point, where life and / or liberty are at risk.
    ... where the state sets aside its responsibility to uphold liberty and protect life, the risk has already been created, and citizens have a right to respond in like manner.

    Jefferson didn't come up with the basic ideas, though given his context and his ability to express himself he tends to be remembered.
    I guess though it's just a matter of scale.
    Indeed, dude, it often is! >_>


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 12,909 Mod ✭✭✭✭iguana


    Thoie wrote: »
    Wow, I'm glad I posted this somewhere for reasoned debate. I'd hate any knee jerk reactions.
    Thoie wrote: »
    But then late at night, I'd like to be able to walk past a group of 6-7 teenagers without tensing up, and listening for footsteps following me afterwards...

    The irony is actually hurting me.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 12,909 Mod ✭✭✭✭iguana


    Ok. I've been asked to show ID in London, and Paris. Both by police carrying semi-automatic weapons. Is that a better example?

    Total and utter BS. The English police force is like the gardai, they are unarmed and only specialist units carry guns. There is also no legal requirement to carry ID in the UK, in fact the proposal of national ID cards is the cause of great national debate as the majority are opposed to the idea.






    i


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,344 ✭✭✭Thoie


    iguana wrote: »
    The irony is actually hurting me.

    I believe you're misquoting me, and I'd appreciate if you could double check that please. As far as I can see, Alayah Slow Self-confidence made the second statement.

    In general, apologies for not coming back to this yet - a number of things have cropped up this week which have prevented me from continuing the discussion.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭seahorse


    Thoie wrote: »
    My first question is is my idea so whacky and horrendous?

    Yes; along with being unfair, unreasonable and unworkable.
    Thoie wrote: »
    Secondly, what are these legitimate things that teenagers/kids would need to be doing outside after hours?

    After what hours? 8pm in winter? - Socialising, traveling to and from the bowling alley, the youth club, the boxing club, the local chipper/supermarket/shops, friends/girlfriends/boyfriends houses - I could go on all day.

    My child is in his mid-teens and while I'd fully support a curfew on kids who've been proven to be guilty of anti-social behaviour, there's no way in hell I'd accept a curfew for kids who are simply socialising with their peers and doing no harm to anything or anyone. What adults sometimes forget is that teenagers put in as many hours in school as most adults do in a full-time job and as far as I'm concerned, as long as they're behaving themselves, they are damn well entitled to spend their out of school hours as they see fit.

    What you are talking about is punishing all under 18's for the actions of a small minority of their age-group, so since that is your attitude, presumably you'd happily accept not being allowed to drive after a certain hour, for example, since a minority of adults drive under the influence of alcohol after pub closing?


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