Curfews

Thoie · 11-12-2008 7:42pm #1

Hope this is the right area for a reasonable discussion

I honestly think it would be a good idea to have a legal curfew in place for children - those under the age of 18. I'd set this curfew for 8pm in winter, 9pm in summer on week nights (but I'm open to alternative curfew times, with reasons why). On Friday and Saturday nights, the times could be a bit later, maybe. Anyone under the age of 18 found outside after that time would be recorded, and their parents would be made pay a substantial fine. Under 18s would be allowed out after curfew in the company of an adult over the age of... 25?

I've mentioned this theory to many friends, and most of them were horrified, and mentioned breach of rights etc. Some tried to say that it would be unfair, and would stop people doing legitimate things.

My first question is is my idea so whacky and horrendous?
Secondly, what are these legitimate things that teenagers/kids would need to be doing outside after hours?

I think it would force parents to take more responsibility for knowing their children's whereabouts. It would not prevent children having a few friends over in the evening, as long as a parent took the responsibility to walk/drive/accompany the kids home.

You could still go to the cinema, but you'd just have to arrange for your older brother/father/uncle to meet you after the pictures.

In order to enforce this, people would need identity cards. Gardai would have the powers to stop and detain anyone out after curfew who can't provide proof of age if they have reasonable suspicion that person is under 18. They couldn't use it to annoy a 30 year old they just didn't like. Parents would face a fine of €500 the first two times a child is found breaking curfew. On the third or subsequent time within an x month period (2 months?), the fine would raise to €1,000 each time. This would provide parents with a strong incentive to know where their children are.

So, go on then. What are the flaws in this plan?

11-12-2008 8:09pm

Personally I like the idea.

But. The main flaw is that in Ireland anything that suggests a reduction in peoples freedoms will be shot to hell regardless of whether its of some use or not. It won't happen because nobody really wants to acknowledge that there is a real problem, and as a result of that there wouldn't be any backing for it.

Still, I'll sign any petition or such if you get the ball rolling.

[On a side note, I'm 31 now and I remember as a teenager and earlier, that at 6 pm we all had dinner together, and it was rare I would be allowed outside after that. After all there was plenty of homework and chores to do. It was only when i hit 17 that it was relaxed and i got more "freedom"... Things have changed considerably since then for "youngsters"]

jhegarty · 11-12-2008 8:18pm

Thoie wrote: »

My first question is is my idea so whacky and horrendous?

You only think it isn't because it doesn't affect you. You want to tar all under 18's as scumbags who "must be up to no good" if they are out at 8:01pm.

Could a 17 year old walk the dog at 8pm ?

metrovelvet · 11-12-2008 8:22pm

^ Or step out to the shop.

Also its an inadvertant curfew for those with kids under 14 who have to be at home supervising younger children.

I'd be pretty pissed off if I got stuck in traffic with my 17 month old and got home at 8:30 and had to pay a huge fine.

Pretty stupid idea.

Hellm0 · 11-12-2008 8:41pm

Whoa whoa whoa!

So let me get this right. Not only do you want to impinge upon the freedoms of one subgroup, but you also want to force EVERYONE to get mandatory ID cards just to prove they are not a part of this subgroup, thereby making it illegal to exist without said ID?

You know even Hitler didn't force non-jew's to wear identification.

11-12-2008 8:42pm

jhegarty wrote:

Could a 17 year old walk the dog at 8pm ?

Couldn't he walk the dog at 6pm? Why does 8pm make more sense?

metrovelvet wrote:

Also its an inadvertant curfew for those with kids under 14 who have to be at home supervising younger children.

Yes, it is. But then again they really shouldn't be away without having someone to watch the children, should they? But I guess the current situation of having the under 14's out on the street at night is better. Whatever happened to having some friend watch the kids or getting a babysitter?

metrovelvet wrote:

I'd be pretty pissed off if I got stuck in traffic with my 17 month old and got home at 8:30 and had to pay a huge fine.

Why would you pay a fine? You are with your child. The curfew would be against children/teens being outside unsupervised....

As the OP says "Anyone under the age of 18 found outside after that time would be recorded, and their parents would be made pay a substantial fine. Under 18s would be allowed out after curfew in the company of an adult over the age of... 25?".

11-12-2008 8:46pm

Hellm0 wrote: »

Whoa whoa whoa!

So let me get this right. Not only do you want to impinge upon the freedoms of one subgroup, but you also want to force EVERYONE to get mandatory ID cards just to prove they are not a part of this subgroup, thereby making it illegal to exist without said ID?

You know even Hitler didn't force non-jew's to wear identification.

Bit of an over reaction, don't you think? So you're pissed at teens needing to have ID to get booze, or get into a Bar/club?

And he's said they only need said ID if they are outside after curfew, and are caught... Kinda like needing a driving license to be driving a car. Sort of.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 11-12-2008 8:52pm

No, very unfair. I used to hang around on my streets with mates during my teenage years and we weren't doing anything illegal.

Hellm0 · 11-12-2008 8:54pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Bit of an over reaction, don't you think? So you're pissed at teens needing to have ID to get booze, or get into a Bar/club?

I live in the US, everyone gets asked for ID at bars. And yes it pisses me off.

Deleted User wrote: »

And he's said they only need said ID if they are outside after curfew, and are caught... Kinda like needing a driving license to be driving a car. Sort of.

Thoie wrote: »

In order to enforce this, people would need identity cards. Gardai would have the powers to stop and detain anyone out after curfew who can't provide proof of age

Seems pretty clear cut what he is saying here. The day I am forced to get a national identification card to prove I have the right to walk the streets would be a sorry day for those who brought that law into power.

What's next? RFID chipping our children to make sure we know where they are 24/7? When did it become societies job to tell parents how to raise their children?

metrovelvet · 11-12-2008 8:55pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Couldn't he walk the dog at 6pm? Why does 8pm make more sense?

Hold on a second. I remember when I was in high school. Classes ended at about 3pm. Then I usually had an hour of detention for something I did wrong, like forgetting a book or being late. Then I had some kind of after school activity. Then I had to get home, which took me an hour, so I often didnt get home until 6 pm. Then I had to eat dinner, clean up and do homework, and that was on the days that I didnt have a part time job after school, on which days I didnt get home until 9 pm.

Plus the doog may not need to go to the bathroom at 6pm!

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes, it is. But then again they really shouldn't be away without having someone to watch the children, should they? But I guess the current situation of having the under 14's out on the street at night is better. Whatever happened to having some friend watch the kids or getting a babysitter?

Its not always that simple.

11-12-2008 9:10pm

Hellm0 wrote: »

I live in the US, everyone gets asked for ID at bars. And yes it pisses me off.

And you get asked for ID to show that you have the right to be there. If you were underage then you wouldn't have the right to be there, and subsequently shouldn't be there at all. Makes sense.

Seems pretty clear cut what he is saying here. The day I am forced to get a national identification card to prove I have the right to walk the streets would be a sorry day for those who brought that law into power.

You're twisting it. What age are you? 22+? This would apply to those under the age of 18... Not adults. And its the right for kids to walk the streets late in the evening or at night, which frankly them being kids, they shouldn't really have anyway.

What's next? RFID chipping our children to make sure we know where they are 24/7? When did it become societies job to tell parents how to raise their children?

When parents stopped looking after their children... When the pc brigade gained momentum and all went loopy. 20 years ago there was only slight crime arising from kids & teens in the evening or at night. What has changed since then? Go on, think about it.... Its not hard to see why a curfew would solve many of the problems that have developed from those changes...

11-12-2008 9:15pm

metrovelvet wrote: »

Hold on a second. I remember when I was in high school. Classes ended at about 3pm. Then I usually had an hour of detention for something I did wrong, like forgetting a book or being late. Then I had some kind of after school activity. Then I had to get home, which took me an hour, so I often didnt get home until 6 pm. Then I had to eat dinner, clean up and do homework, and that was on the days that I didnt have a part time job after school, on which days I didnt get home until 9 pm.

fair enough. So on average you would be home by 6, and then dinner/cleanup/homework. Fine. Three hours left until curfew. Two hours for dinner/cleanup/homework, and an hour free. Knock your socks off, but be inside again before 9pm. Doesn't sound so awful. In fact, it sounds exactly like how I grew up...

Plus the doog may not need to go to the bathroom at 6pm!

Where does the dog go to the bathroom while you're in school, or having dinner, or doing your homework?

Its not always that simple.

Only if you want to complicate things.

11-12-2008 9:16pm

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

No, very unfair. I used to hang around on my streets with mates during my teenage years and we weren't doing anything illegal.

Good for you. How long ago was this?

Bottle_of_Smoke · 11-12-2008 9:28pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Good for you. How long ago was this?

would have been between 98 & 2002.

I also used to go for walks/jogs after study when I was doing leaving cert.

Hellm0 · 11-12-2008 9:29pm

Deleted User wrote: »

What age are you? 22+?

None of your business but I am older then that.

Deleted User wrote: »

This would apply to those under the age of 18... Not adults.

An addendum onto the OP's suggestion was that people would need identification to verify their age. This means that EVERYONE would be required to show identification to Gardai on request, requiring that people over 18 would legally be obligated to obtain government sanctioned/issued ID cards. Not my cup of tea.

Deleted User wrote: »

And its the right for kids to walk the streets late in the evening or at night, which frankly them being kids, they shouldn't really have anyway.

Do you even had kids? What is your logic here, why should children be imprisoned in their own homes?

Deleted User wrote: »

When parents stopped looking after their children... When the pc brigade gained momentum and all went loopy.

Tbh I think this idea is far loopier then the concept of personal freedom. The right to bring a child up as one sees fit is a very, VERY sacred one indeed. It is not the governments job to change people for the "better" nor impose moral beliefs upon them; Doing so would be what you are referring to when you say "PC" so you are kind of contradicting yourself here.

Deleted User wrote: »

20 years ago there was only slight crime arising from kids & teens in the evening or at night.

20 years worth of time has passed, learn to deal with it. Ireland in 1988 was a very different place to Ireland in 2008 and imposing unnatural restrictions upon human behavior is not going to turn the clock back.

Deleted User wrote: »

What has changed since then? Go on, think about it.... Its not hard to see why a curfew would solve many of the problems that have developed from those changes...

What changes? What "problems"?? What do you think this would solve?

podge79 · 11-12-2008 9:40pm

This means that EVERYONE would be required to show identification to Gardai on request, requiring that people over 18 would legally be obligated to obtain government sanctioned/issued ID cards.

dont want to start a fight just for my own info - I always thought people had to show ID to a guard on request? no?

metrovelvet · 11-12-2008 9:43pm

Deleted User wrote: »

fair enough. So on average you would be home by 6, and then dinner/cleanup/homework. Fine. Three hours left until curfew. Two hours for dinner/cleanup/homework, and an hour free. Knock your socks off, but be inside again before 9pm. Doesn't sound so awful. In fact, it sounds exactly like how I grew up...

Where does the dog go to the bathroom while you're in school, or having dinner, or doing your homework?

Only if you want to complicate things.

Curfew is 8 pm in this scheme of things. This is the most retarted thing I have heard in a long long time. You know what would happen? NO ONE WOULD COME HOME AT ALL UNTIL 8 PM and then do all their homework [ ihad 3 hours a night btw] eat, and perhaps get to bed by 1 am to be up for 6 am the next day to get to school on time.

Hellm0 · 11-12-2008 10:00pm

podge79 wrote: »

This means that EVERYONE would be required to show identification to Gardai on request, requiring that people over 18 would legally be obligated to obtain government sanctioned/issued ID cards.

dont want to start a fight just for my own info - I always thought people had to show ID to a guard on request? no?

Not without a reason. This would shift the burden of truth on to the civilian, if out after a certain time all citizens would have to PROVE that they are over 18.

If I want to go to a bar and drink I accept the burden of truth as it is fairly reasonable that I should be required to prove I am over 18 to get the booze. Why else would I be in a bar but to consume alcohol(presumably, nothing against going dry but you get my point).

If I was out for a walk after 8 why should I have to prove anything?

11-12-2008 10:18pm

Hellm0 wrote: »

None of your business but I am older then that.

Wow. A bit moody i can see. Get a grip, I didn't ask anything detailed or particularly personal off you.

An addendum onto the OP's suggestion was that people would need identification to verify their age. This means that EVERYONE would be required to show identification to Gardai on request, requiring that people over 18 would legally be obligated to obtain government sanctioned/issued ID cards. Not my cup of tea.

By rights everyone should have a form of ID with them at all times. Usually a drivers license is acceptable as proof of ID. And the gardai can ask you to show ID at any time.... As can the police forces in any country. Now, normally its not enforced, but everyone should have ID with them at all times. To think otherwise is retarded.

Do you even had kids? What is your logic here, why should children be imprisoned in their own homes?

had Kids? Nope. Have Kids? Nope. But I've lived in Ireland for over thirty years and I've seen the changes that have occured here, and the effects of those changes on the levels and types of crime that occurs here. I live equally in Athlone and Cork, and there have been major changes from when I was a teenager growing up.

How long have you lived in the states? How long since you've lived in Ireland? Do you have kids, and are they growing up in Ireland? (I know its none of my business, but it is relevant to this thread and your participation in it.)

Tbh I think this idea is far loopier then the concept of personal freedom. The right to bring a child up as one sees fit is a very, VERY sacred one indeed. It is not the governments job to change people for the "better" nor impose moral beliefs upon them; Doing so would be what you are referring to when you say "PC" so you are kind of contradicting yourself here.

Ok. You bring up your children as you see fit, you let them roam the streets in the dark, you don't supervise their activities, and then you wonder why your child has been arrested for beating a pensioner to an inch of his life, or arrested for arson, or some gang like activity like beating up random strangers just for the sheer fun of it.

You can raise your children as you see fit. But they're your children, and as such you're responsible for them. Should they remain unsupervised and get into trouble, you're also responsible for that too. Something a lot of parents have forgotten over the last few years....

20 years worth of time has passed, learn to deal with it. Ireland in 1988 was a very different place to Ireland in 2008 and imposing unnatural restrictions upon human behavior is not going to turn the clock back.

Learn to deal with it? Ahh, I see. Bury your head in the sand and hope it will just get better? Good plan.

Imposing unnatural restrictions? Rubbish. These were restrictions my parents and the parents of my friends laid upon us while we grew up. They're only "unnatural" now, because we've gotten so used to ignoring the lack of responsibility being shown to this day.

And if you remembered what Ireland was like in the 80's you'd know very few people would want to go back to it. But we would like to see a serious reduction in youth crime, which is huge now in comparison to the 80's..

What changes? What "problems"?? What do you think this would solve?

Are you taking the piss?

11-12-2008 10:22pm

podge79 wrote: »

This means that EVERYONE would be required to show identification to Gardai on request, requiring that people over 18 would legally be obligated to obtain government sanctioned/issued ID cards.

No, only the teens/kids would need to display the ID. Oh, and also, the adult that is supervising the child outside after curfew.

But then again I can't see what the fuss was about. I always got stopped going into bars/clubs right up until i was in my mid twenties, so I always had decent ID on me. I can't see why some of you guys have such an issue with carrying ID with you. Its not as if you're being asked to show ID at gunpoint.

jhegarty · 11-12-2008 10:49pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Why would you pay a fine? You are with your child. The curfew would be against children/teens being outside unsupervised....

As the OP says "Anyone under the age of 18 found outside after that time would be recorded, and their parents would be made pay a substantial fine. Under 18s would be allowed out after curfew in the company of an adult over the age of... 25?".

And if the poster is 24 ? (some people under 25 have children).

Deleted User wrote: »

No, only the teens/kids would need to display the ID. Oh, and also, the adult that is supervising the child outside after curfew.

But then again I can't see what the fuss was about. I always got stopped going into bars/clubs right up until i was in my mid twenties, so I always had decent ID on me. I can't see why some of you guys have such an issue with carrying ID with you. Its not as if you're being asked to show ID at gunpoint.

The difference is you didn't fear arrest if you didn't have ID on you.

Hellm0 · 11-12-2008 10:57pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Wow. A bit moody i can see. Get a grip, I didn't ask anything detailed or particularly personal off you.

Sorry if I hurt your feelings.

Deleted User wrote: »

By rights everyone should have a form of ID with them at all times.

Why?

Deleted User wrote: »

And the gardai can ask you to show ID at any time.... As can the police forces in any country.

Only if they are arresting you or suspect you of having committed or having intention to commit a crime.

Deleted User wrote: »

but everyone should have ID with them at all times. To think otherwise is retarded.

Thank god you don't make the laws round here.

Deleted User wrote: »

had Kids? Nope. Have Kids? Nope.

I see.

Deleted User wrote: »

But I've lived in Ireland for over thirty years and I've seen the changes that have occured here, and the effects of those changes on the levels and types of crime that occurs here. I live equally in Athlone and Cork, and there have been major changes from when I was a teenager growing up.

You mean...things CHANGE over time? My god! Why wasn't informed of this?!

Deleted User wrote: »

How long have you lived in the states? How long since you've lived in Ireland? Do you have kids, and are they growing up in Ireland? (I know its none of my business, but it is relevant to this thread and your participation in it.)

I have lived in the US for one year, I lived all life in Ireland up to that point. I do not have children but I have been involved in raising them.

Deleted User wrote: »

Ok. You bring up your children as you see fit, you let them roam the streets in the dark, you don't supervise their activities, and then you wonder why your child has been arrested for beating a pensioner to an inch of his life, or arrested for arson, or some gang like activity like beating up random strangers just for the sheer fun of it.

You can raise your children as you see fit. But they're your children, and as such you're responsible for them. Should they remain unsupervised and get into trouble, you're also responsible for that too. Something a lot of parents have forgotten over the last few years....

I do not have children. Most parents raise their children well. Parents who do not should be held legally responsible for that child's behavior I agree however to make it the responsibility of society on a whole to govern how people lead their lives or raise their children is not the answer.

Deleted User wrote: »

Learn to deal with it? Ahh, I see. Bury your head in the sand and hope it will just get better? Good plan.

No, I am not saying that problems need not be addressed however I think this solution is flawed in the extreme.

Deleted User wrote: »

Imposing unnatural restrictions? Rubbish. These were restrictions my parents and the parents of my friends laid upon us while we grew up. They're only "unnatural" now, because we've gotten so used to ignoring the lack of responsibility being shown to this day.

Notice how it was your parents doing this. They did this because they CHOSE to. Other people do other things because they CHOSE to. To deny people a freedom because you think it is immoral is ignorant in the extreme.

Deleted User wrote: »

And if you remembered what Ireland was like in the 80's you'd know very few people would want to go back to it. But we would like to see a serious reduction in youth crime, which is huge now in comparison to the 80's..

Then find a better way to do it than shackling us all with mandatory laws about ID and curfews for children. If your going to tar all children with the same law book then why not all adults? I mean SOME adults are criminals then why not treat ALL adults as criminals? We should have a curfew for adults by that logic. Maybe we should all be forced to stay in doors whilst not in work or church, obviously if we are outside then there is a potential that we are criminals!

Deleted User wrote: »

Are you taking the piss?

Do you expect me to respond to that?

ChocolateSauce · 11-12-2008 11:01pm

It is a breach of rights. Children do not have fewer rights than adults and you are neither qualified to be their judge nor legally entitled to have any sort of say in how their life is run: that is sole dominion of their parents.

11-12-2008 11:06pm

jhegarty wrote: »

And if the poster is 24 ? (some people under 25 have children).

We're hardly talking about introducing this idea into force tomorrow. And the OP put a ? after his suggestion of 25 as if to ask if this was a good age to be used. Maybe there is an exemption on the age limit for parents under 25. I dont know.

The difference is you didn't fear arrest if you didn't have ID on you.

I spent the last 6 months living in Xi'an, China. And I was stopped for ID checks. Same happened years ago, when I spent time in Moscow. Both places I could have been arrested for not having ID with me, and worse things than just being arrested.... But then again I don't have a problem with carrying ID with me at all times..

But you're missing the point of all this. Do you acknowledge that there is a problem with youth crime in Ireland? If yes, do you think that a curfew has a reasonable chance of reducing this youth crime? If you don't, no worries. I'm not the OP. I just said I thought it was a good idea, but I didn't think it up.

metrovelvet · 11-12-2008 11:13pm

This is not china, this is not russia. This is the west. Get over it.

jhegarty · 11-12-2008 11:16pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I spent the last 6 months living in Xi'an, China. And I was stopped for ID checks

And they execute people for speaking against the government. That a good idea too ?

How about a parent under 18 ?

11-12-2008 11:37pm

Hellm0 wrote: »

Sorry if I hurt your feelings.

Nah, it was just annoying.

Why?

Proof of identity. Why else? Be reasonable here. Why do you have a drivers license? Why do you have a passport? Why do you have a club card for the local cash'n'carry?

The ID we're talking about is simply another form of identification to be carried, if you don't already have a Drivers license or such. And frankly its intended for the kids rather than adults like you or me.

Its not part of some mad plot to keep us all under tabs. This is just an idea to reduce crime in Ireland. If it was being proposed by the government and being asked to be passed into law, I'd understand some of the extreme concerns you're seeming to have.....

Only if they are arresting you or suspect you of having committed or having intention to commit a crime.

If they suspect you of anything, they can ask you to display ID. If they suspect that you are pretending to be someone else, they can ask you to prove that you are who you say you are...

Thank god you don't make the laws round here.

haha... I'm feeling the same about you.

I have lived in the US for one year, I lived all life in Ireland up to that point. I do not have children but I have been involved in raising them.

involved in raising them? huh? My brother and sister both have children. Two of them are in their teens. I've played with them, helped them with school, and other problems. But they are not my children. They're not under my care, and i'm not responsible for them. Their parents are.

I do not have children.

I see. :rolleyes: [Works both ways.]

Most parents raise their children well. Parents who do not should be held legally responsible for that child's behavior I agree however to make it the responsibility of society on a whole to govern how people lead their lives or raise their children is not the answer.

Its time to stop this right now... This idea of a curfew does not suggest anything about how to raise children. It does not suggest anything to say that the government or anybody will march into a family's home, and tell them to live differently.

This idea is about preventing children (Under 18's) from being allowed outside after a certain hour without adequate supervision. Simple. And very clear.

(If you want to talk about the government telling parents how to raise their children, count me out. We were talking about a curfew)

No, I am not saying that problems need not be addressed however I think this solution is flawed in the extreme.

Fair enough. Your choice. I think its a good idea. There are no plans, there has been no research presented, etc. Its just an idea.

Notice how it was your parents doing this. They did this because they CHOSE to. Other people do other things because they CHOSE to. To deny people a freedom because you think it is immoral is ignorant in the extreme.

Have you heard of incidents where parents have been investigated harshly for cruelty to children, because they may have disciplined (slapped) their child in a shop or on the street? Other people have seen this happening, and decided that parents shouldn't be allowed to hit their children.. at all.

Or, what about assisted suicide/Euthanasia in Ireland? That's denying people the freedom to kill themselves under any circumstances

Know where i'm going with this?

Then find a better way to do it than shackling us all with mandatory laws about ID and curfews for children. If your going to tar all children with the same law book then why not all adults?

Ok, so why is it that children that commit crimes are not sentenced in an adult court? By your reasoning some children should receive adult sentences/punishments.. rather than them all receiving non-adult sentencing...

What would your opinion be if the curfew was only applied to past offenders? Would that be more acceptable in your eyes?

Do you expect me to respond to that?

Not really... I just couldn't believe you bothered to ask me the question considering what the subject was about.

11-12-2008 11:39pm

metrovelvet wrote: »

This is not china, this is not russia. This is the west. Get over it.

Oh ffs. I can't use other examples of where ID is required?

Ok. I've been asked to show ID in London, and Paris. Both by police carrying semi-automatic weapons. Is that a better example?

11-12-2008 11:43pm

jhegarty wrote: »

And they execute people for speaking against the government. That a good idea too ?

They don't execute everyone that speaks against them, but thats a different thread. I don't particularly agree with them.

How about a parent under 18 ?

How many parents aged under 18 are living on their own with their children? Personally, I only know of 2 girls (aged 17ish) with children and both are still living with their parents...

jhegarty · 11-12-2008 11:46pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Personally, I only know of 2 girls (aged 17ish) with children and both are still living with their parents...

Well that's ok so, no problem :rolleyes:

metrovelvet · 11-12-2008 11:48pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Oh ffs. I can't use other examples of where ID is required?

Ok. I've been asked to show ID in London, and Paris. Both by police carrying semi-automatic weapons. Is that a better example?

Where Airport security? Thats the only place in Paris and LOndon that has happened to me.

Curfews

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