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Land boundaries

  • 20-05-2019 4:17pm
    #1
    looksee
    Registered Users Posts: 28,007 ✭✭✭✭


    Land boundaries show on the Land Direct /Land Registry as extending to half way across public roads. In a situation where a road/track has gone completely out of use, doesn't go anywhere and is not recognisable as a road, can it be absorbed into the actual property?

    Is there any general answer to this question? Obviously the actual situation would have to be approached through a solicitor, but hypothetically is it possible?


Comments

  • #2
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,005 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    This isn't really a question about land boundaries. It's a question about whether a public right of way over someone's land can be extinguished by a period of non-use.

    I don't know the answer to the question, but reframing it in those terms may help to focus discussion.


  • #3
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,234 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    If it doesn't go anywhere, the question also has to be asked if it was ever a public road.


  • #4
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,005 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    It must go somewhere. What's at the end of it? That's where it goes.


  • #5
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,234 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    It must go somewhere. What's at the end of it? That's where it goes.

    My driveway goes down the side of my house. It looks like a road. That doesn't mean there was a right of way on it.


  • #6
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,005 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    I'm not saying that there's a right of way on your driveway; just that your driveway goes somewhere.


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  • #7
    looksee
    Registered Users Posts: 28,007 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    No, it really doesn't go anywhere, it was a footpath/track that crossed a stream, but the stream has moved / been moved (probably 150 years ago or so) so it just stops. The surrounding land is not specified on the Land Registry, most of the other adjacent land belongs to Coilte. Obviously it would have to be officially investigated, I just wondered if there was any precedent/general rule. Thank you for your clarification Peregrinus.


  • #8
    freedominacup
    Registered Users Posts: 7,920 ✭✭✭freedominacup


    looksee wrote: »
    No, it really doesn't go anywhere, it was a footpath/track that crossed a stream, but the stream has moved / been moved (probably 150 years ago or so) so it just stops. The surrounding land is not specified on the Land Registry, most of the other adjacent land belongs to Coilte. Obviously it would have to be officially investigated, I just wondered if there was any precedent/general rule. Thank you for your clarification Peregrinus.

    In my experience those sort of lanes get absorbed into sites over time. First step is usually placing a barrier of some sort at the end of it. Then slowly move/remove the boundary between site and lane.

    I've lost one myself over the past 20 years. It wasn't accessible to modern machinery and fell out of use. Neighbour slowly absorbed it into his site. It used to annoy me a bit. The practicalities of the situation just meant it wasn't worth the hassle. Fenced off now and forgotten.

    Tbf there's another one adjacent to my parents house that also fell out of use and they made some small changes to try to make sure it stayed out of use. From memory they own their side of it iykwim.

    Rights of way are funny things. Be prepared for push back from an unexpected quarter. You never know. More than one man met an early demise over rights of way. How much hassle is it worth?


  • #9
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,234 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    I'm not saying that there's a right of way on your driveway; just that your driveway goes somewhere.
    But for right of way purpose, a road only really goes somewhere if it crosses a boundary, leading to someone else's land (admittedly a landowner could gradually acquire all sites on a cul de sac).


  • #10
    longgonesilver
    Registered Users Posts: 734 ✭✭✭longgonesilver


    The road in the OP did go somewhere, it went to the stream. People needed access to the stream to draw water, wash clothes and for horses and cows to drink.

    Some rights of way are marked on landdirect, but others are not. I

    There is a government scheme running at the moment where the holders of rights of way are supposed to legally register them. The initial deadline is past but is was extended as very few had actually been registered. Both parties have to agree to it so some cases will be very problematic. If no-one claims a right of way in the old land then maybe the op will be able to fence it off legally.
    https://www.lynchsolicitors.ie/registration-of-rights-of-way/


  • #11
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,005 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    longgonesilver wrote: »
    The road in the OP did go somewhere, it went to the stream. People needed access to the stream to draw water, wash clothes and for horses and cows to drink.
    It still goes somewhere. It goes to the stream. Even if the stream has been diverted or has dried up, it goes to where the stream used to be.
    longgonesilver wrote: »
    There is a government scheme running at the moment where the holders of rights of way are supposed to legally register them. The initial deadline is past but is was extended as very few had actually been registered. Both parties have to agree to it so some cases will be very problematic. If no-one claims a right of way in the old land then maybe the op will be able to fence it off legally.
    https://www.lynchsolicitors.ie/registration-of-rights-of-way/
    This relates to private rights of way, where e.g. I have a right of way over your land in order to access my own land, but the general public has no similar right. But the OP is asking about a now-disused public road, which is a different kettle of fish altogether.


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  • #12
    looksee
    Registered Users Posts: 28,007 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    Lol, its all academic anyway, turned out the property owner had been doing an annexation of land on three sides of the property - without benefit of Land Registry. To retain his garden as it is at the moment he could have years of negotiating to get title!


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