IE to lease UK fleet?

GM228 · 09-01-2019 3:10pm

Dats me wrote: »

Is planning etc under way for the Kildare line too?

Not yet.

Dats me wrote: »

The 800s are an intercity train though from what I can see, if as above the performance of these things will suffer for the extra utility then new EMUs should be the real workhorse of the Dublin area? And then this Bi-Mode order should be a small one for operational flexibility, such as running "DARTs" to Newbridge

Not trying to be belligerent or anything, I just don't see the logic in the new DART stock being mainly bi-mode instead of EMU, surely it should be an 80/20 EMU/Bi mix or something

Thanks again for the replies

If the IEPs had an engine under every carriage their performance would vastly improve. There is no guarantee on what option would be taken here. It is their concept as opposes to actual set up or intended use that has been looked at.

It is envisaged that only the first batch (100) will be BMUs, the rest being EMUs, but the exact number and specs have not been finalised yet.

Ireland trains · 09-01-2019 3:21pm

[quote/] It is envisaged that only the first batch (100) will be BMUs, the rest being EMUs, but the exact number and specs have not been finalised yet.[/quote]
It says in modern railways that there will be 480 new coaches (i assume 120 × 4car) with 250 of them being bi-mode.
Also says the trains will be called '8530 class'.
The magazine aslo says IÉ are getting new leather seat covers for the ICR'S.
Is irish rail considering eletrifying to kildare and if so will they quad track to kildare

loyatemu · 09-01-2019 3:30pm

They want everything bi-mode so they can use the catenary wherever it's available. IÉ are also concerned about their emissions responsibilities and I presume they want to minimise diesel running on electrified lines (and inside covered stations).

GM228 · 09-01-2019 4:05pm

Ireland trains wrote: »

It says in modern railways that there will be 480 new coaches (i assume 120 × 4car) with 250 of them being bi-mode.
Also says the trains will be called '8530 class'.
The magazine aslo says IÉ are getting new leather seat covers for the ICR'S.
Is irish rail considering eletrifying to kildare and if so will they quad track to kildare

300 is currently the number of vehicles envisaged under phase 1 (100 vehicles) and 2 (200 vehicles) of the DART Expansion project.

Phase 1 is envisaged to be bi-mode, phase 2 electric, but, could be 2 phase electric. There is/was talk of a phase 3 which could include a new fleet for Cork and Belfast but nothing concrete.

Electrification to Celbridge is part of the NDP to be completed by 2027, but, with potential future electrification of the Cork and Belfast lines that may be delayed as it is expected if such does happen it will be 25kv AC 50hz as opposed to 1.5 kV DC.

Take note though of the point I made:

GM228 wrote: »

the exact number and specs have not been finalised yet.

8530 is incorrect, that number series is already in use with the existing fleet. I suspect a 5 digit class number and different classes for BMU and EMU.

Dats me · 09-01-2019 5:41pm

Okay very interesting! Very nice to hear a bit of ambition I have to say

The flaw I see with that is now interoperability between 1500v DC and 25kv AC. Would the new EMUs be able to run on the AC if they electrify Dublin-Cork? Or would that mean if the decide to do Dublin-Cork they'll have to redo all of the other DART lines? Will the new Bi-Mode be able to run on AC power?

Captain Chaos · 09-01-2019 5:47pm

Ireland trains wrote: »

It says in modern railways that there will be 480 new coaches (i assume 120 × 4car) with 250 of them being bi-mode.
Also says the trains will be called '8530 class'.
The magazine aslo says IÉ are getting new leather seat covers for the ICR'S.
Is irish rail considering eletrifying to kildare and if so will they quad track to kildare

The 8530 class can't be right.

The 8520 DART class runs up to number 8540.

The new EMUs or BMU number class would have to start at 8550 at least.

L1011 · 09-01-2019 7:25pm

Dats me wrote: »

Okay very interesting! Very nice to hear a bit of ambition I have to say

The flaw I see with that is now interoperability between 1500v DC and 25kv AC. Would the new EMUs be able to run on the AC if they electrify Dublin-Cork? Or would that mean if the decide to do Dublin-Cork they'll have to redo all of the other DART lines? Will the new Bi-Mode be able to run on AC power?

If specced to do so. Dual system (AC/DC) trains already exist and are very common on the continent

They would usually swap system at a station, Drogheda and Hazelhatch likely if required here.

Cork local electrification may make more sense to do at 25kV if ever done

Ireland trains · 10-01-2019 5:34pm

www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/irish-rail-set-to-get-nta-approval-for-100m-worth-of-rail-carriages-1.3753805?mode=amp
Intresting artical about ordering new trains
Also mentions future plans for hourly sligo service, 2 hourly dublin to Westport, extra trains to rosslare and double track on galway line

GM228 · 10-01-2019 6:33pm

Ireland trains wrote: »

www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/irish-rail-set-to-get-nta-approval-for-100m-worth-of-rail-carriages-1.3753805?mode=amp
Intresting artical about ordering new trains
Also mentions future plans for hourly sligo service, 2 hourly dublin to Westport, extra trains to rosslare and double track on galway line

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/irish-rail-set-to-get-nta-approval-for-100m-worth-of-rail-carriages-1.3753805?mode=amp

Some inaccuracies in the report.

The rail company has dropped plans to refurbish older carriages in the fleet, ruling it out on cost grounds. It is still considering hiring second-hand trains to cope with demand.

Confirming the imminence of the €100 million contract, the NTA said it was “at advanced stage of evaluating these alternatives and a decision is likely to be made by NTA in this regard, early in 2019”.

Under the National Development Plan (NDP), Irish Rail is to get 300 carriages to upgrade its fleet. The first contract for 41 new carriages could be awarded by the end of the year.

Confirms the 300 (as opposed to the 480 number suggested by MR) of carriages which I stated previously, however the 41 new carriages (which are the ICR centre cars in addition to the 300) shouod be ordered very soon, not by year end.

Also the contract is significantly higher than €100M, otherwise that would be outstanding value for money. The €100M is just for the centre cars and not the other 300 vehicles.

The "future plans" are not actually a future plan, they are just desirable, but are not part of the current NDP, however the investigations relating to Phase 2 and 3 of the WRC are part of the NDP.

Jamie2k9 · 10-01-2019 11:14pm

CEO has settled in well, poor comments about the Rosslare line. Now if only NTA opened it to a private operator they wouldn't be long changing there attitude...

end of the road · 11-01-2019 12:18am

and nothing for waterford either from what i can see. that would deserve an hourly service a long time before sligo. i can only think sligo would get an hourly service to serve mullingar and longford and at that stage may as well run it all the way. in that case why not give one to westport as well. realistically galway and limerick and waterford should have been hourly years ago.
not that any of this will actually happen anyway or at least i won't believe it until i see any such service increases.

Jamie2k9 · 12-01-2019 5:42pm

1ph to Sligo is madness. I'm sure its a well used line but Cork just about sustain a hourly service. The N4 is due to get a few upgrades at the Sligo end and this will impact them in the coming years.

Galway can sustain a 1ph service because Westport will likely become a shuttle 2ph outside a morning/evening peak like Tralee.

Still would not be optimistic that they will happen anytime soon.

L1011 · 12-01-2019 11:46pm

I think they need to be willing to turn more trains at Longford or even Mullingar rather than running nearly every service to Sligo. Leave what they have but reinforce closer

Jem72 · 13-01-2019 2:42pm

You'd need a lot more crossing points or a long section of double line to get an hourly service to Mullingar or Longford. Currently the running time is almost half an hour between Killucan and Maynooth which leaves no slack whatsoever for an hourly service. Fixing Enfield's second platform would help but it would still be far too tight for an hourly service if anything got delayed. The present schedule of hourly trains down in the afternoon and hourly trains up in the early morning is sufficient.

I'd suggest that a later finish and an earlier weekend start would be higher priority and could be achieved with no capital investment. The 1717 from Connolly which is basically a positioning movement beyond Maynooth would be much better used to form a later train down in the evening - it could run back into town and make a 2100 to Longford for very little extra cost.

Any capital investment would be better spent getting running times back to where they were 20 years ago and not wasted on silliness like hourly service to Sligo.

Dats me · 13-01-2019 6:52pm

Jem72 wrote: »

You'd need a lot more crossing points or a long section of double line to get an hourly service to Mullingar or Longford. Currently the running time is almost half an hour between Killucan and Maynooth which leaves no slack whatsoever for an hourly service. Fixing Enfield's second platform would help but it would still be far too tight for an hourly service if anything got delayed. The present schedule of hourly trains down in the afternoon and hourly trains up in the early morning is sufficient.

I'd suggest that a later finish and an earlier weekend start would be higher priority and could be achieved with no capital investment. The 1717 from Connolly which is basically a positioning movement beyond Maynooth would be much better used to form a later train down in the evening - it could run back into town and make a 2100 to Longford for very little extra cost.

Any capital investment would be better spent getting running times back to where they were 20 years ago and not wasted on silliness like hourly service to Sligo.

Why are running times slower than 20 years ago?

Ireland trains · 19-01-2019 10:52pm

what model of train are Irish rail ordering or have their eye on.
I wouldn't mind the hitachi 385

L1011 · 19-01-2019 11:00pm

It'll be tendered so whatever is offered. Some vendors don't care to do 1600mm and some don't do 1500v DC.

Dats me · 19-01-2019 11:16pm

I was reading on railusers.ie that the reason for the fall-out of the 2700 refurb is that the only got one tender and it was too expensive. Is it possible there is a problem with the tendering or are these all done at a European-wide level and bad tender result is from a lack of commercial interest mainly?

Jamie2k9 · 20-01-2019 10:20am

Dats me wrote: »

I was reading on railusers.ie that the reason for the fall-out of the 2700 refurb is that the only got one tender and it was too expensive. Is it possible there is a problem with the tendering or are these all done at a European-wide level and bad tender result is from a lack of commercial interest mainly?

European level, problem is its a major job and carries a lot of risk to the bidder. Its not a major suprise just like the 201 engine project has been shelved. Trains are also much cheaper to build these days.

Jamie2k9 · 21-01-2019 4:38pm

Looks like leasing is more less a non starter.

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/rushhour-congestion-to-get-worse-before-it-gets-better-irish-rail-37731324.html

GM228 · 21-01-2019 5:02pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Looks like leasing is more less a non starter.

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/rushhour-congestion-to-get-worse-before-it-gets-better-irish-rail-37731324.html

No decision made yet, but not looking likely, in part due to ROSCO roll back on availability dates, possibly due to UK stock shortages post 2020.

Dats me · 21-01-2019 8:09pm

In the article linked he talks about ordering 600 trains over 10 years, that seems huge. Surely the 22000 or Mark 4 wouldn't be replaced after only 10 or by then 20 years?

There's a recommended article underneath where he says they're aiming for 75m passengers by 2025, given so much is in Dublin how can this be done given Connolly, Loop line congestion? When they move Docklands station will they be able to terminate lots of trains there?

devnull · 21-01-2019 8:15pm

GM228 wrote: »

No decision made yet, but not looking likely, in part due to ROSCO roll back on availability dates, possibly due to UK stock shortages post 2020.

Greater Anglia's Stadler trains are now said to be running three months behind in addition to the previously reported heavy delays on their Bombardier fleet, which is restricting the 170s, and there is said to be other delays in the north on new stock so you're probably looking at almost 2021 now at the earliest that anything could enter service.

Dats me · 21-01-2019 8:25pm

devnull wrote: »

Greater Anglia's Stadler trains are now said to be running three months behind in addition to the previously reported heavy delays on their Bombardier fleet, which is restricting the 170s, and there is said to be other delays in the north on new stock so you're probably looking at almost 2021 now at the earliest that anything could enter service.

Why are they only looking at Britain? Surely there are trains available somewhere in Europe?

end of the road · 21-01-2019 8:46pm

Dats me wrote: »

In the article linked he talks about ordering 600 trains over 10 years, that seems huge. Surely the 22000 or Mark 4 wouldn't be replaced after only 10 or by then 20 years?

you wouldn't know with IE. in saying that i'd find it hard to believe any 22000s would be retired quickly. mk4 i'd sort of believe it to be possible but then there would be no reasonable excuse for it. so i'd say new orders are likely extra stock + possibly replacements for the 8100s.

end of the road · 21-01-2019 8:58pm

Dats me wrote: »

Why are they only looking at Britain? Surely there are trains available somewhere in Europe?

there may be, but then there are the following possible issues. age of stock + reliability, cost to get them here a

long with re-gauging, wigth of stock (europe has a wider wigth i believe. britain is a lot nearer and all that would be needed is to put new bogies on that would fit irish gauge.

Ireland trains · 21-01-2019 9:15pm

The reccomended artical also mentions 4 tph on galway to athenry, faster services, a platform 8 at connolly and quad tracking heuston to park west.
I asume for the 600 coaches it was either a typo or this could include new enterprise fleet aswell

goingnowhere · 21-01-2019 9:49pm

Dats me wrote: »

In the article linked he talks about ordering 600 trains over 10 years, that seems huge. Surely the 22000 or Mark 4 wouldn't be replaced after only 10 or by then 20 years?

Only trains being replaced are the very first batch of DART coaches and possibly the 2600 fleet. Everything else is being kept.

Replacement of the Enterprise is a separate project.

Dats me · 21-01-2019 10:02pm

goingnowhere wrote: »

Only trains being replaced are the very first batch of DART coaches and possibly the 2600 fleet. Everything else is being kept.

Replacement of the Enterprise is a separate project.

But then where will they put these 600 carriages? Dublin is incredibly congested, article mentions 629 as the size of the current fleet, I can't see how a doubling of trains could be possible without DU, better service around Galway and Cork etc would be great but again can't see the numbers. Maybe it's a typo as said above.

I've no idea myself I just can't see how they'll get through Connolly

GM228 · 21-01-2019 10:11pm

goingnowhere wrote: »

Only trains being replaced are the very first batch of DART coaches and possibly the 2600 fleet. Everything else is being kept.

Replacement of the Enterprise is a separate project.

It's a (proposed) single supplier 10 year framework which would include potential MkIV and Enterprise replacement fleets.

IE to lease UK fleet?

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