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America is over for irish/europeans?

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13

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭Wheres Me Jumper?


    Americans it appears to me have totally lost the plot.
    i visited there in the mid-80s as a student, but i have no desire to ever return.
    too many crazy people. too many guns.
    30,000 dead as a result of guns pa.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,444 ✭✭✭evil_seed


    mariaalice wrote: »
    That an interesting point, but the post is not just about stunning scenery it is a different experience going on holiday there as opposed to living there, mass shootings, the health care issues, the extreme poverty coinciding with an extream level of wealth, homeless is massive but it's not just that. A commentator was talking about the long queues to vote in the recent election and said infrastructure is creaking and even breaking down in some areas of the country, its that sort of issue that has changed people perception of the US, plus the rest of the world is becoming wealthy.

    The perception is driven by what you see in the media. You don't see what I saw in the media. Different perceptions


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,758 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    ardinn wrote: »
    Can I ask why nobody walks? Is it too dangerous or are they too fat? Serious question!

    Because the place is so huge and spread out.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭xi5yvm0owc1s2b


    too many crazy people. too many guns.
    30,000 dead as a result of guns pa.

    More than two-thirds of those 30,000 deaths are suicides. Which are not "as a result of guns." They're as a result of people deciding to kill themselves.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,758 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    I think many Irish people went to America out of necessity years ago. They had to go somewhere to find work. The need to go now is much reduced seeing as we have near 'full employment'.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,094 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    ardinn wrote: »
    Can I ask why nobody walks? Is it too dangerous or are they too fat? Serious question!

    Where I live, people walk for exercise around a park or go for a hike but hardly anyone walks as a means of getting from a to b. It's stupidly hot for some of the year and also, outside of the main tourist area, the city just isn't designed for it. Its just easier to drive, even from store to store within the same complex sometimes


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,500 ✭✭✭✭DEFTLEFTHAND


    RobertKK wrote: »
    The US is what you make of it, never had a problem with the people there, always got treated well. The national parks are a treasure and well worth visiting.
    I have seen poverty like one would see in Dublin despite the wealth of the city.
    I see some people here knocking something they never tried.

    Yeah the scenery across the country is unreal, especially up top.

    I did a 2 day train journey from Chicago to Seattle in 2010 and was just in awe at what I saw. Through the Rockies, Cascades and Glacier National Park.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    A friend and i did a drive from la to sf - we also went into yosemite. It was definitely stunning!


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,948 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    mammajamma wrote: »
    I

    Its the impression I get. I spent several years living there, and I can truthfully say I have no desire ever to go back. Not because of one particular government or anything, it just seems like such a hateful place to live now, everyone on top of everyone about every little bloody thing, everythings an "issue" and "problematic".

    I think the problem is that its just that, an impression. People are divided because they listen to a different radio station, watch different news channels and live in different states or suburbs.

    The biggest issue in America is the 24x7 media and their hyping up of every little thing, so much so that they have projected to the nation and the world, this broken down society that can't function. But this is all a projection.

    Now, of course, there are issues and real divisions, but its amplified and magnified so much now that people think its reality when its really not nowhere near as bad as it is.

    But there is also some truth to your question about America being washed up. It's not washed up, it's just a lot of the rest of the world has caught up to America and its previous unparalleled standard of living.

    Compare Ireland of the 70's and 80's to today. America at that time was a beacon of hope and prosperity, where a person would get a good days pay for a good days work. Now, we have turned our economy around we no longer need to go the US to work. People have new opportunities in places like Dubai or Qatar or China or Singapore, never mind the Australia or Canada's of this world.
    People can still do very well over there in the US, especially in the IT and medical fields. The EU economically has also been very good for Europe as a whole and generated new found wealth in previous poorer countries like Spain and Poland.

    I was in South America recently and was surprised how some developed many countries were. Then again, I have an intimate understanding of real poverty, after spending a long time in Africa so that is my benchmark for being poor. Anyway, some countries like Chile and Colombia are doing quite well, but it reminded me of what Spain would have been like in the 80's. South America is kinda like the EU, but 20-30 years behind. If they could get their act together and form some kind of Southern American EU free trade block, they will do OK and catch up. No need then for millions of migrants to flee there and go to the US, but they need to ditch their extreme politics and corruption.

    The EU, in general, offers the same standard of living as the US in general, but again it depends as if you as more ambitious and more career-driven than you will probably get on better in the US.

    So, TLDR, the US is not washed up, its just the rest of the world has caught up with and we live in such a globalised world now, there are many opportunities for young people more than ever. The US, however, did export their model of free trade to the rest of the world and did offer a kinda of policeman role, so that major wars would be less prevelant thus growing the world economy and reducing poverty the world over. We should be thankful for them for this at least, warts and all.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,948 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    kenmc wrote: »
    If I never had to set foot in America again, I'd be fine with that. I did the J1 there, 95 I think, and numerous business trips since, could never imagine living there. Can't see myself ever going there voluntarily again. I could see myself living in China, India, Thailand etc much easier than ever living in America.

    Was in NJ and pa in june, and the first piece of fresh fruit I saw was in my kitchen when I got home.

    Ah Jaysus, India? Have you been? You don't just see the poverty, you get covered by it. The poverty there is Africa level poverty.

    You would prefer to live there than say Lake Tahoe? LOL.

    When I see posts making grand proclamations like above, I know they are full of $hite.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,639 ✭✭✭completedit


    Irish people make it seem that all Americans are the types you see waddling around Dublin during the summer or else the cliched overly loud Americans, tbh America is too diverse to make any appraisals. You could probably stereotype based on region but as a country as a whole, it's impossible.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,341 ✭✭✭✭rossie1977


    America is a beautiful country no question and so varied but yes the Republicans are trying to make it harder and harder for everyone that's not Anglo white Christian to live there.

    Australia especially NSW and Victoria is similar to East coast US anyway with a fraction of the population, world class cities in Sydney and Melbourne, a tiny fraction of the crime and better pay for similar jobs but yes cost of living is quite a bit higher.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,796 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    My brother-in-law and his family (3 kids under 10) live on the Gulf Coast of Florida. He has been there 18 years and married a Florida native. He is now a U.S. citizen.

    Initially he went over to expand his horizons in his specialised field of IT architecture, many American businesses queued to sign him up straight out of college here in Dublin and his early years there were a visa sponsored work hard / play hard, high salary fun fest. He lived in cities up and down the east and mid-west and by all accounts had the time of his life. He admits the lifestyle made him selfish and pretty ignorant of real life for working Americans. His employers mostly took care of his residence, car, ration of flights to visit home and the all-important health cover and other benefits. He got to golf, fish, trek, travel north and south America, enjoy corporate hospitality at major sport and entertainment events. Basically live the bachelor dream.

    However family life has given him a new perspective. Since settling down in Florida (from my own experience an idyllic spot to be sure) he has worked at less lucrative but more stable roles, mainly CTO /COO jobs in finance and media. And having to grip on to the greasy corporate pole is where his difficulties started.

    Once upon a time, he would come home to visit, complain about the weather, the customer service, the traffic, the general greyness and the lack of ambition and fecklessness evident (to him) all around.

    But. His attitude now could not be more different and little of that has to do with Ireland's evolution into a cultural and technological hotspot.

    In Florida, he works a minimum 12 hour day. Often 16. Even as a senior executive, his annual leave entitlement is about 18 days, plus public holidays. He has to supplement his corporate health cover with an almost 5 figure top up to cover his family and some high-risk extras due to genetic predispositions. There is little sense of community or routine charity where he lives. Even though its a busy suburb, there are no footpaths, everyone drives everywhere and there is little neighbourliness. Places is schools and clubs are cutthroat competitive. His kids are, by choice, educated at a private faith based school and that costs a fortune. He complains of the de-evolution of political discourse and personal responsibility from local right up to federal level and he says the polarisation is tangible. He wont even discuss Trump with us, it angers and anguishes him so much.

    Yes, America is over for him. Its probably never even been a runner for tens of millions of the marginalised and poorly educated there. My Bro in law would move back to Europe in a heartbeat. He is quite seriously contemplating a move to Canada once the kids near the end of grade school.

    On that note, what was the clincher for him? Even his posh private jewish grade school has metal detectors and weekly drills to prepare for a potential gun or explosives attack. When your kids are hiding under the desks and the teachers are screaming out commands like cabin crew on a troubled plane, you know you're not in Kansas or even Florida, anymore.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,276 ✭✭✭kenmc


    markodaly wrote: »
    Ah Jaysus, India? Have you been? You don't just see the poverty, you get covered by it. The poverty there is Africa level poverty.

    You would prefer to live there than say Lake Tahoe? LOL.

    When I see posts making grand proclamations like above, I know they are full of $hite.
    Yes I have, twice. While there is poverty on a huge scale, there is much more cultural difference to keep things interesting for a long time. And great food. Not saying that I'd ultimately enjoy living in India, but I wouldn't rule it out, and I'd definitely go back there in the future.

    Lake Tahoe is nice, great skiing, but it's still just another american town full of copy and paste malls, shops and fried food. I've been there too.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,043 ✭✭✭martinedwards


    too many guns.

    and I'm saying that as someone who lived through the troubles in the North.

    The rest of the world has more of a draw for me.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,948 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    kenmc wrote: »
    Yes I have, twice. While there is poverty on a huge scale, there is much more cultural difference to keep things interesting for a long time. And great food. Not saying that I'd ultimately enjoy living in India, but I wouldn't rule it out, and I'd definitely go back there in the future.

    Lake Tahoe is nice, great skiing, but it's still just another american town full of copy and paste malls, shops and fried food. I've been there too.

    So, now you are saying you wouldn't live in India.
    Put it this way, which education or health system is better for your kids?
    Case closed.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,276 ✭✭✭kenmc


    markodaly wrote: »
    So, now you are saying you wouldn't live in India.
    Put it this way, which education or health system is better for your kids?
    Case closed.

    I think you'll find I didn't say that, but don't let the truth get in the way of a good rant.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,386 ✭✭✭NSAman


    Jesus, you would swear Europe has no issues.

    I left Ireland a few years ago. I have lived in many countries throughout Europe and Africa.

    America obviously has it’s problems, but name me a country that does not?

    I love home, but couldn’t make a living there. Here in the States I do very nicely thank you very much. I live in a small community, yes a community....where people care about each other. I do not lock my doors as there is zero crime. The view from my deck is breathtaking and I love the seasons here. It is damned cold at the moment.

    One thing I am happy about is the fact that the Irish have advanced as a country where most do NOT have to emigrate. That has not always been the case.

    Young people seem to choose Europe and Australia now, which is not a bad thing. I have family all over the world and yes we still come home whenever we get a chance or for any family event.

    The negativity that I have seen on this thread is pretty palpable.

    America is not New York, LA or one city. It is a massive and diverse country. I live in the Mid-West and the people are friendly, caring and as I said previously I am part of a community. It reminds me of Ireland back in the 70’s where crime was low and everyone knew everyone else.

    If some of the comments are to be believed on here, America is better off without these people “visiting” here and they certainly wouldn’t survive living here.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,639 ✭✭✭completedit


    The thing about America is even 10 years ago, there was a certain mystique about it, it still seemed so distant and exotic. I remember landing in NY and it felt like the movies, now I realise after living there on J1 and visiting a few times that it's just like anywhere else. America benefits from it's position as the cultural superpower so people will still flock there even though the living situation is poxy.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭Wheres Me Jumper?


    i recall from my student J1 days that America seemed to have more than its fair share of nutjobs. we got to know this guy we called "the doctor". he was a right-wing extremist and would literally froth at the mouth when going on about "his country" being taken over by black people and how the Govt. should sterilize them. he was just one, but we encountered many others. God only knows what it's like now?

    tbh i'm not at all surprised by these mass shootings. it's a very polarised, divided society. i'm actually surprised there aren't more.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,471 ✭✭✭EdgeCase


    It's a very varied place. I mean talking about the USA is about as broad as talking about the EU as if it were all totally homogeneous.

    Some parts of the states are lovely, others aren't.

    I think Trump and the extreme right political environment that he has around him are doing horrendous damage to the US' image abroad and also stirring up all sorts of toxicity in the US itself. How long that will last is unclear. The political landscape could flip dramatically as people start to get fed with him and the Tea Party stuff, or it could continue and become very strange.

    The US has always has an extreme right. I mean while it was the land of opportunity for some it ran a full Apartheid regime in the south states that existed well into the 1960s and the attitudes continued far beyond the official ending of that stuff.

    It's had McCarthyism, it rounded up Japanese Americans and locked them in internment camps purely based on their ethnicity during WWII.

    On the other side of it the US has been very progressive on a whole range of social issue and is highly individualist in its culture.

    It's also a country that suffered from a very distorted political system due to the impact of the electoral college and senatorial elections that add enormous weight to geographic representation rather than population representation. The result is the rural and conservative parts play a role in politics that is FAR beyond their population size. It would be like giving each Leitrim same number of seats as Cork and Dublin in certian elections because you had to treat each county equally despite size.

    The result of that is crazy national politics that doesn't remotely represent the views of the vast majority of the US population. Instead it plays out some kind of crazy rural and southern Vs coastal and urban proxy civil war.

    It's a country that has a good and bad sides and massive regional differences and it's something you have to weigh up when considering spending extended time there.

    All I would say is for every MAGA Hat wearing Trumpeteer NRA fanatic there's at least one possibly totally under representated social progressive somewhere too.

    It's a polarised society and it's got a lot of issues but it can still be interesting and energetic and offers high quality of life to those who are in the right place with the right resources.

    I wouldn't write it off entirely but I would approach it with the view that the US isn't Western Europe and often has totally different attitudes to a lot of issues. It's a parallel but different culture and holds quite different values on a number of issue.

    In terms of economic and lifestyles the differences have also narrowed a lot. The US used to be on a whole other level of economic opportunity to the rest of the developed world and Ireland before the 1990s was a developed country that had been through the economic wringer serveral times over so the gap was even bigger. Ireland in the 20th century was also very conservative and utterly Church ridden in terms of most public policy. The tables have turned on that and in many ways Ireland's now socially very progressive while the US seems to be running into the same kind of religious dogma inspired politics we just shook off. We seem to be going opposite directions on many of those issues.

    I'd say we look at the US now with a more critical eye and also from a wealthier perspective too.

    All I would say is the US is a maelstrom of conflicted points of view and that's in some ways what's made it what it is. Whether that can work long term, who knows!? It's still an interesting rollercoaster ride of a place if you've a good seat.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,350 ✭✭✭doolox


    As other posters have said, America is hugely varied and it is very possible to find a location that suits the Irish temperament without too much difficulty.

    What is getting harder I think is for medium talented people to progress upwards and this upward mobility is impossible without paperwork and visas to reside there.

    Immigrant Irish will find themselves competing with people from much poorer countries than in the recent past decades. The irish are much better off working in Europe where they are legal and treated like local employees with full legal protection and status. The trouble is the language of the host country needs to be learned in order to progress upwards if this is desired.

    I have a nephew working in Budapest doing very well in his job. Another friend of mine is doing very well in Dresden so it can be done. Many multinational companies already use English as a common official language so that for work purposes there is little or no language barrier.

    The big problem is that Ireland is considered a low tax country when compared to our European neighbours. In some countries Health and Social insurance are compulsory and at a very high level so that it not unusual for more than half your wages is gone on deductions.

    Health insurance the States is very high and practically compulsory because the costs of health procedures and treatment are very high.

    Many people I knew had to return to Ireland in middle age when they developed chronic health conditions costing them a small fortune in the States.


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,929 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    I haven't been there in a few years but I'm sure it's still amazing and you shouldn't judge a country by what you see in the media....

    Sure rte devoted an hour just now to two sides of complete muppets arguing over a poppy...


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 206 ✭✭JustAYoungLad


    How can it be ‘over’ when everyone has an iphone and theres a starbucks and mcdonalds in every street? Get your head outta your arse


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,339 ✭✭✭The One Doctor


    mammajamma wrote: »
    Imagine the idea of rearing children there, eeesh! Anyone else have the same inkling, especially from younger people? Or completely different point of view?

    Regular gun-toting massacres have put me off the place. The EU has 30% more people and a lot less maniacs with guns.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,639 ✭✭✭completedit


    America's problem is that their best state California has zero vibrancy. You think it's gonna be like Spain or something with a thriving bustling nightlife and the place is empty by 2am.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,743 ✭✭✭oceanman


    with so many repressive laws, its strange they call it the land of the free!..


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    oceanman wrote: »
    with so many repressive laws, its strange they call it the land of the free!..
    That only applies if you're rich, then you're free to choose which laws you want to abide by and which to enforce (via your paid up politician) on the rest of the population.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,283 ✭✭✭arctictree


    A friend of mine was living in America and developed a heart problem. Got the next plane back to Ireland and straight to St Jameses. Said the cost of treatment in the US would have bankrupted him.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭orourkeda1977


    so is ireland and europe


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