UL Medicine

Sid_Justice · 16-10-2011 2:33pm

I'd take what mrsstuffings says with a grain of salt. She seems to be fairly inconsistent in her appraisals.

sam34 · 16-10-2011 4:42pm

Sid_Justice wrote: »

I'd take what mrsstuffings says with a grain of salt. She seems to be fairly inconsistent in her appraisals.

drop it. final warning.

Jammyc · 16-11-2011 12:16pm

Thanks for the post! Will definitely consider it now.

bubbleking · 17-11-2011 4:57pm

Agree with what was said above re UL being very impressive on the open day and I was considering putting it as my number one choice.however please consider your career - think about this;

If the consultant you are working under went to the same school as you will that affect how he see's/treats you? officially of course not but on a realistic level of course it happens. This was actually a pressing arguement 2 consultants made when I asked them about choosing a Med school. For the near future there will be no members in the upper hierarchy of medicine who will have graduated from UL. This has potential to make life difficult for you when you go for job/promotion etc at the very least you may be at some disadvantage to those who went to trinity/UCC/UCD for example

can I prove this happens? no so I guess its hearsay but its just something to think about.

Also a question to UL students now who probably think Im scaremongering - later in your career will you look on UL students as better? your official stance will be no but personally you will have a preference for the alma matter

Sid_Justice · 18-11-2011 3:43am

bubbleking wrote: »

Agree with what was said above re UL being very impressive on the open day and I was considering putting it as my number one choice.

UL Open day is coming up again

OPEN EVENING
2011

BM BS GRADUATE ENTRY MEDICAL
PROGRAMME

Date: Wednesday 23rd November 2011

Time: 19h00 - 21h00

Venue: KBG12 (Kemmy Business Lecture School Theatre)

RSVP

GemsOpenEvening@ul.ie

For further details contact

061- 234756 OR 233756

Anyone considering UL (or thinks they won't be offered elsewhere) should definitely attend this to make sure they know what they're getting themselves in for.

jtsuited · 18-11-2011 10:43am

regarding PBL vs didactic etc., it pains me to say it (as a first year Gep in RCSI) but the didactic method of learning is an incredibly time-inefficient way of learning.

We do a bit of PBL style learning, and the information is sooooo much easier to remember, and it's a lot more, er, fun and interesting.

Just thought I'd throw that in as some people might consider PBL to be some sort of sub-par method of medical education. It really is not. It's just that the didactic way is the more 'old-school' classic way of doing it, and there's a reluctancy to let it become obsolete.

Jammyc · 19-11-2011 5:24pm

Any reason why the post that replied to my question has been deleted?

sam34 · 19-11-2011 7:57pm

Jammyc wrote: »

Any reason why the post that replied to my question has been deleted?

yep, it was deleted by an admin as it was posted by a poster who was a re-reg of a previously banned poster.

Jammyc · 19-11-2011 10:26pm

sam34 wrote: »

yep, it was deleted by an admin as it was posted by a poster who was a re-reg of a previously banned poster.

Ah, ok. Thanks for clearing that up.

Sid_Justice · 19-11-2011 11:58pm

Sid_Justice wrote: »

I'd take what mrsstuffings says with a grain of salt. She seems to be fairly inconsistent in her appraisals.

sam34 wrote: »

drop it. final warning.

MrsStuffings
Banned

MrsStuffings sitebanned for trolling and similar behaviour, I guess I was correct in my appraisal and my advice was particularly apt.

Biologic · 20-11-2011 12:16am

jtsuited wrote: »

regarding PBL vs didactic etc., it pains me to say it (as a first year Gep in RCSI) but the didactic method of learning is an incredibly time-inefficient way of learning.

I'm pretty surprised you're saying this. I know which teachers you have now and I'm sure they're throwing in as much clinical knowledge as they can in lectures. This is stuff you won't be able to learn on your own, and it'll stand to you as soon as you hit the wards.

Sid_Justice · 20-11-2011 12:30am

Clinical stuff is best learned in the clinical years and pre-clinical stuff in the pre-clinical years.

Biologic · 20-11-2011 1:29am

Sid_Justice wrote: »

Clinical stuff is best learned in the clinical years and pre-clinical stuff in the pre-clinical years.

Insightful as ever.
Clinical tid bits help keep the monotony of the basic sciences relevant. I found it useful and interesting to have practicing doctors telling you what you need to know and why you need to know it.

Sid_Justice · 20-11-2011 2:55am

Biologic wrote: »

Insightful as ever.
Clinical tid bits help keep the monotony of the basic sciences relevant. I found it useful and interesting to have practicing doctors telling you what you need to know and why you need to know it.

Everything you learn in basic sciences should be clinically relevant, otherwise, why would you be learning them? If you can't see the clinical relevance of a certain topic, you shouldn't be expecting a clinician to be reinforce it for you, you should just go and think about it.

I think it's slightly dangerous relying on practising clinicians to direct you to what you need to know and what you don't need to know. If they never learned their basic sciences in a clinically orientated manor (which they almost certainly didn't ) they won't have good judgment. It's all well and good a practising clinician telling you you don't need to know much detail on biochemical pathways to be a competent doctor but if it's on the syllabus it could be in an exam.

Can you give any examples of the clinical pearls you received from these lecturers?

sam34 · 20-11-2011 5:46am

Sid_Justice wrote: »

MrsStuffings sitebanned for trolling and similar behaviour, I guess I was correct in my appraisal and my advice was particularly apt.

eh, hello?

you actually quoted the mod-warning which was to drop the mrsstuffings discussion and telling you that it was to be the final warning... so you can't say you weren't warned.

banned.

just-joe · 28-01-2012 2:59pm

Just checked this thread and saw the last post has been there for 2 months, not a very positive last post for a thread.

So I was wondering if any current UL insights oils give an update on their insights on the course, what you're enjoying or what you're not?

I would also be interested to know whether any current UL student have spoken to any of the other universities's students, about how each course is going, similarities and differences?

Cheers,

Joe

Annaroberts22 · 28-01-2012 4:21pm

just-joe wrote: »

Just checked this thread and saw the last post has been there for 2 months, not a very positive last post for a thread.

So I was wondering if any current UL insights oils give an update on their insights on the course, what you're enjoying or what you're not?

I would also be interested to know whether any current UL student have spoken to any of the other universities's students, about how each course is going, similarities and differences?

Cheers,

Joe

The whole board for graduate entry medicine seems to be dead since last August. Starting to wonder if no-one is interested in applying for GEM anymore!

Jammyc · 28-01-2012 10:39pm

Annaroberts22 wrote: »

The whole board for graduate entry medicine seems to be dead since last August. Starting to wonder if no-one is interested in applying for GEM anymore!

Here's hoping!:pac:

Annaroberts22 · 28-01-2012 11:49pm

Jammyc wrote: »

Here's hoping!:pac:

must be the massive loans scaring everyone off lol

ULbound · 29-01-2012 10:14pm

just-joe wrote: »

Just checked this thread and saw the last post has been there for 2 months, not a very positive last post for a thread.

So I was wondering if any current UL insights oils give an update on their insights on the course, what you're enjoying or what you're not?

I would also be interested to know whether any current UL student have spoken to any of the other universities's students, about how each course is going, similarities and differences?

Cheers,

Joe

im a 1st yr in ul at the mom and couldnt speak high enough about it down here! it is a great course and great atmosphere down here. it does take a while to get used of learning the PBL way but once you get used to it its great. the 2nd yrs (well the special few who come top of their class!) on the course help you with the anatomy in tutorials that you have every week which is great and you learn what you really have to concentrate on! as for the fees you really do forget about them! loan is easy to sort out and everyone else is in the same boat so its grand!
there is some disadvantages to ul-as there is with all the med schools. ul main weakest is pharmacology w/o a doubt but once you are proactive about this and make sure to do them as pbl learning objectives its fine!
good luck with the gamsat!

declanmoffit · 13-02-2012 9:18pm

Annaroberts22 wrote: »

The whole board for graduate entry medicine seems to be dead since last August. Starting to wonder if no-one is interested in applying for GEM anymore!

Here's hoping!

Has anybody else got any thoughts on being a "guinea pig", so to speak, in a new course in a new med school? Absolutely no offence intended. Simply looking for some reasonable debate on the topic.

I came away from the UL open evening with it set as my clear first choice. I loved the feel/atmosphere of the place and the informal relationship which seems to exist between the instructors and the students.

If any more current students would like to share their feelings on the pros and cons of GEM @ UL in this quasi-confidential setting then it would be very much appreciated.

Thanks!

heybert · 14-02-2012 12:17am

declanmoffit wrote: »

Here's hoping!

Has anybody else got any thoughts on being a "guinea pig", so to speak, in a new course in a new med school? Absolutely no offence intended. Simply looking for some reasonable debate on the topic.

I came away from the UL open evening with it set as my clear first choice. I loved the feel/atmosphere of the place and the informal relationship which seems to exist between the instructors and the students.

If any more current students would like to share their feelings on the pros and cons of GEM @ UL in this quasi-confidential setting then it would be very much appreciated.

Thanks!

Hi declanmoffit,

Current first year GEM @ UL here.

I think that you're spot on in saying that there is a good relationship between the faculty and students. Because the course is taught through PBL, I suspect that we have a faculty and staff who manage the course much differently than others.

For instance, in my previous courses we would have a number of different modules which would be managed by the individual lecturer (who would set the exams). This could give rise to issues during term when there are clashes with other subjects etc. Because our central theme is PBL, our timetable is centrally managed, our lecturers (generally) only lecture and our head teachers set the exams. Therefore the weekly activities are arranged around our PBL and Clinical Skills sessions and the staff are aware of the upcoming schedule. This helps to eliminate possible areas of trouble and makes it seem like everyone is on the same page - students and staff alike.

I'll do a quick personal pros and cons.

Pros:
The self directed learning style is a fantastic way to learn. However stating that it is self directed without elaborating may be a little misleading, in that, a framework is provided on a weekly basis in which a number of learning objectives have to be met. Inevitably you will meet them if you are willing to put in the work.

Having outlined a number of learning outcomes on your first PBL session of the week you must then be prepared to stand and present them in front of your peers (usually eight other students and your tutor). You are therefore constantly being tested on your knowledge and it really pay dividends when it comes to retaining the information.

Another pro in my opinion is that because we are taught through cases we are learning through pathology where possible. This puts clinical relevance on everything we do which makes it so much more interesting and easier to spend time with.

Cons:
I'm biased because I feel that the course really suits my style of learning so personally I don't have any major issues with it. I think my one big thing is that I would love to learn anatomy through cadavers, especially as I'm a non-science graduate. However I must stress that anatomy and clinical skills are taught in an excellent manner here at UL and I suspect that it may actually be one of our strongest points on graduating. The cadavers is more of a personal thing.

I think a lot of it comes down to what image you have of yourself in medical school. If you see yourself putting in the long hours and working hard then UL will be an extremely rewarding place for you to learn. There are definitely a small number who struggle but I think it usually comes down to work ethic rather than personal ability or the quality of the course delivery.

On a final note, I should also point out that while the school may be new, the system is tried and tested at this stage. The exact same learning style has been used for many years in McMaster University, Canada (who we benchmark ourselves against twice a year with both sets of students taking the same exam); St George's University of London, where our current anatomy professor taught the same course; and Flinder's University, Australia where the current head of the medical school, Professor Paul Finucane, first observed this style of learning while he worked there from 1994-2001.

By no means do I wish elect myself as a representative for the opinions of the rest of my class (all 124 of them) and the above is simply my experience so far.

I hope this helps and please feel free to ask any further questions.

horsemeat · 15-02-2012 10:25pm

heybert wrote: »

Hi declanmoffit,

Current first year GEM @ UL here.

I think that you're spot on in saying that there is a good relationship between the faculty and students. Because the course is taught through PBL, I suspect that we have a faculty and staff who manage the course much differently than others.

For instance, in my previous courses we would have a number of different modules which would be managed by the individual lecturer (who would set the exams). This could give rise to issues during term when there are clashes with other subjects etc. Because our central theme is PBL, our timetable is centrally managed, our lecturers (generally) only lecture and our head teachers set the exams. Therefore the weekly activities are arranged around our PBL and Clinical Skills sessions and the staff are aware of the upcoming schedule. This helps to eliminate possible areas of trouble and makes it seem like everyone is on the same page - students and staff alike.

I'll do a quick personal pros and cons.

Pros:
The self directed learning style is a fantastic way to learn. However stating that it is self directed without elaborating may be a little misleading, in that, a framework is provided on a weekly basis in which a number of learning objectives have to be met. Inevitably you will meet them if you are willing to put in the work.

Having outlined a number of learning outcomes on your first PBL session of the week you must then be prepared to stand and present them in front of your peers (usually eight other students and your tutor). You are therefore constantly being tested on your knowledge and it really pay dividends when it comes to retaining the information.

Another pro in my opinion is that because we are taught through cases we are learning through pathology where possible. This puts clinical relevance on everything we do which makes it so much more interesting and easier to spend time with.

Cons:
I'm biased because I feel that the course really suits my style of learning so personally I don't have any major issues with it. I think my one big thing is that I would love to learn anatomy through cadavers, especially as I'm a non-science graduate. However I must stress that anatomy and clinical skills are taught in an excellent manner here at UL and I suspect that it may actually be one of our strongest points on graduating. The cadavers is more of a personal thing.

I think a lot of it comes down to what image you have of yourself in medical school. If you see yourself putting in the long hours and working hard then UL will be an extremely rewarding place for you to learn. There are definitely a small number who struggle but I think it usually comes down to work ethic rather than personal ability or the quality of the course delivery.

On a final note, I should also point out that while the school may be new, the system is tried and tested at this stage. The exact same learning style has been used for many years in McMaster University, Canada (who we benchmark ourselves against twice a year with both sets of students taking the same exam); St George's University of London, where our current anatomy professor taught the same course; and Flinder's University, Australia where the current head of the medical school, Professor Paul Finucane, first observed this style of learning while he worked there from 1994-2001.

By no means do I wish elect myself as a representative for the opinions of the rest of my class (all 124 of them) and the above is simply my experience so far.

I hope this helps and please feel free to ask any further questions.

Hi HeyBert,

I am currently in UL myself finishing up science ed and have a gamsat score of 56 from september so am thinking of doing the grad med. however have heard some points of concern for me.

Couple of questions about the course

1. Is there an official answers book to each LO given out at the end of the week?
It seems to me that the LOs are interpreted by the students (and each different group of eight) as they see fit, or as the pbl tutor directs. Then you mention the head of the schools interpret the LOs as they see fit for exams.

Does a discrepancy ever arise between the two different sets of people interpreting LOs for two very different purposes?
If a lecturer is setting an exam he knows what's examinable because he knows what he has covered in the class. How are the heads of the school to know exactly how each PBL cohert has interpreted the LOs, and if the students have interpreted the LOs to the same depth that they feel is acceptable for exam purposes.

Hence why having an official ''answer book'' at the end of the week would mean each pbl group would know what they were meant to learn.

2. Whats the idea behind not releasing the official LOs until the end of the week? surely it would make more sense if you were all given the official LOs at the beginning of the week? like what if you miss out on some or word them that they dont go to the same depth as other groups?

3. the lectures you get? if the people giving them are just GPs and other doctors brought in, who have no input into setting the exams, what's the point of the lectures?

4. I heard one person crudely remark that the only anatomy lectures you get are 30 mins every week? and that the anatomy is learned from worksheets/workbooks? is this true?

melanie87 · 20-02-2012 2:06am

Hey Im in first year aswel so just to answer your Qs...

1. Yes there is an official answer book...but no we aren't given it
Well its more a guide then an "answer book". You know what your meant to learn through a combination of reading the texts, what your peers studied, guidance from your tutor and lectures

2. The LOs are given in stages in the order of the case. Generally more of the basic sciences first and then the investigations and management after so you can see the relevance. They are usually evenly split so you don't have an overload of information to learn in 3 days! I've never missed out on an LO and at the end of the week we run through the list with our tutor to make sure we all feel we have covered them all

3. The people giving the lectures are given our LOs and base their lecture around it. Most are familiar with PBL and our cases. For example they may even include an x-ray or lab results from our case in their presentation

4. Ha I wish anatomy was only 30 mins. The class it 90 mins and its optional. It's questions and answers (They ask, we answer). It really keeps you on your toes because you make sure you go in knowing it. Yes each week we have worksheets and diagrams to label and they typically take between 5-8 hours to do.

horsemeat · 20-02-2012 3:28pm

Hi Melanie,

as regards points 1,2 and 4 again.
1. ''You know what your meant to learn through a combination of reading the texts, what your peers studied, guidance from your tutor and lectures''

So in essence you're not actually told exactly what it is you need to know, you have to figure it out for yourself?????
I mean, at any point does the person setting the exams say ''you need to know exactly this much detail on (for arguments sake) gluconeogenesis, and the enzymes involved in it and the krebs cycle'' or is it as you say a case of asking the person sitting next to you how much detail they learned?

If it's the latter I can see clear scope how discrepancies could arise between what students have learned and what the person setting the exams intended them to learn.
Or does the person setting the exams, detail to the PBL groups exactly what is needed to be learned by the end of the case.
''Learning Objectives'' seem a bit broad if there's no official answers, or exam guidance given from the people who set the exams, as opposed to the tutors who come in locum from their GP practices i'm led to believe.

Also, why do they not give you the answer book?

2. Do you ever sit in PBL and think, ''Gosh, these three hours would be much better spent in the library studying, as opposed to sitting here trying to figure all this stuff out when none of us knows anything about it?''

4. Do you feel like you can really get a feel for three dimensional anatomy by just studying from worksheets and atlases?

I mean, sure the carotid sheath is in the neck, but how difficult is it to get a visual appreciation of its relations (nerve plexuses, fascias etc) without cadavers ?

Thanks again answering for my queries.

melanie87 · 20-02-2012 5:10pm

Are we told exactly what to learn? No
Are we told if we have covered too little or too much? Yes

If I get up and stand and deliver and I haven't covered enough, I'm told so by the group and the tutor. More often then not you end up covering more then you have to. I know what your saying and I had that fear myself, but you change groups and tutors throughout the term so you are kept on your toes. Also there was nothing in the xmas exams that I thought "crap I never went into detail on that". They aren't going to spoon feed you. If you want to be told everything exactly, then UL and PBL isn't for you.

2. Haha no never! 3 hours flies by! The first hour or so it from the previous case anyway. The groups are a good mix of science and non-science so there is always someone who knows something about it. You would be amazing what you can figure out with a little guidance from your tutor. Seriously PBL is the way to go!

4. I can completely see your point. I'm the first to admit i'd love to try learn anatomy from a cadaver. But for the various organs we have different images taken at different angles so you do get quite familiar with them. I've never used cadavers so I cant compare. I don't think you need to worry too much about it though, anatomy and it's clinical relevance is DRILLED into you...with or without cadavers.

First Aid Ireland · 20-02-2012 6:50pm

I think that people shouldn't worry so much. You learn more medicine after you qualify than before you qualify. You pretty much have to re-learn everything you ever knew when you're doing your membership exams.

I've no time for PBL, having been part of an experimental PBL group years ago. I was fed all the mcmasters stuff, but it was dire, as far as I was concerned, and I never met any practicing clinicians who were big fans. BUT, you have options. It will suit some people and not others. if you like the sound of it, go to UL. If you don't, go somewhere else.

Again, with anatomy. You won't learn anatomy properly without dissection. When I'm examining somebody to this day, I still often picture my landmarks, with a cadaver in my mind's eye. But some people argue that it's not essential to be great at anatomy. In reality as an intern, you're gonna need to know where in the abdomen the liver, spleen, kidneys, bowel and stomach are. To continue the abdomen example, it's arguably more important to be able to identify guarding and rebound tenderness as signs of local peritonism than to know where everything is. Not many med students from any med school are really good at that. Worry about the complex head and neck stuff etc when you're an ENT SHO! You'll learn what you need to know to survive easily enough.

I think the take home message should be that it won't suit everybody, but there are lots of options. And it's also important to realise that while your undergrad is important, your practice will be influenced much more by your postgrad experience than by anything you learn at uni.

Just enjoy med school. It's WAY better than being a doc!

PeadarGalway · 02-04-2012 1:14pm

Hey, I'm not sure if somebody has provided this or not (couldn't find it by searching for it), but could somebody in UL put together a quick post about what happens in first year: modules and their focus etc.

Students from both UCD and RCSI have posted detailed info about first year here, and UCC gradmed have their own mini website with info posted.

I feel it might help with some people's worries about PBL if they see that the same stuff is being covered, albeit in a different manner, and for those who might be a bit apprehensive about picking (or accepting a place in) UL.

I'm sorry if this has already been posted
Thanks in advance

GOING4BROKE · 05-04-2012 6:00pm

Hi all,

Apologies if this post seems ignorant. I was wondering about the prospects for a UL student as compared to say RCSI post University. Is there an equal opportunity to advance to surgery? Has anyone heard of anyone who graduated from UL and is now doing surgery.

Once again apologies as I am not completely informed. Waiting in the wings with a score of 56 and I am less then optimistic of improving after my second sitting in Dublin 2 weeks ago. Any help or insight is greatly appreciated.

Reality_Check1 · 06-04-2012 8:39am

GOING4BROKE wrote: »

Hi all,

Apologies if this post seems ignorant. I was wondering about the prospects for a UL student as compared to say RCSI post University. Is there an equal opportunity to advance to surgery? Has anyone heard of anyone who graduated from UL and is now doing surgery.

Once again apologies as I am not completely informed. Waiting in the wings with a score of 56 and I am less then optimistic of improving after my second sitting in Dublin 2 weeks ago. Any help or insight is greatly appreciated.

I could be wrong but when you start off its a level playing field - you are assigned your intern spot (similar to the CAO) you pick your preference and all the medical students graduating at that time are given their preference based on grades (I dont know how this correlates between the colleges though)

I imagine it would be a tough path to progress though. Every interview you ever do will be overseen by a consultant who went to one of the core medical schools and just from my limited experience they tend to look down on UL. So although technically its a level playing field it never really is when applied to real life

UL Medicine

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