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Dublin ranks 3rd in terms of the amount of time spent in cars due to congestion

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    #92
    JustARandomGuy
    Registered Users Posts: 133 ✭✭JustARandomGuy


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    I've seen some absolute nonsense posted on my time here. But this takes the biscuit.


    He's absolutely correct though, while other cities built and improved upon their road infrastructure, especially in cities Dublin has become an overcongested cycle central. Shane Ross would rather have people walk than drive.


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    #93
    Qrt
    Registered Users Posts: 1,627 ✭✭✭Qrt


    JustARandomGuy wrote: »
    Shane Ross would rather have people walk than drive.

    You say that as if it’s a bad thing.


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    #94
    howiya
    Registered Users Posts: 3,217 ✭✭✭howiya


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    couple of things here; first is the calculation about the amount of money foregone. you estimated 20% of €3bn, so say €600m. now take into account the benefit to public health - direct from people being more active and fitter, indirect from people breathing cleaner air (and remember that the HSE has a budget of something like €18bn, a not insignificant figure)
    also, take into account the benefits to those who are still sitting in traffic of removing one in every five cars from the road. granted, you'll see a further reduction in fuel receipts as the roads will be less congested so cars will run more efficiently, but there would be a decent albeit unmeasurable boost in reduction in wasted time. it *has* to be good for the mental and physical health of those who do remain stuck in their cars, to spend less time stuck.

    secondly, the money people wouldn't be spending on fuel doesn't simply just evaporate. monies not spent on fuel would be spent elsewhere, and possibly with a greater multiplier impact on the economy than it does on a commodity which is produced elsewhere, shipped into the country and sold without much 'value added' benefit to the economy in terms of stimulating *other* economic growth.

    The health budget won't be decreasing anytime soon despite the welcome public health improvements that would arise from less cars on the road.


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    #95
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,370 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    grahambo wrote: »
    I take your point that long term lower pollution levels and people exercising a bit more will bring about better health, whether that's to the tune of €600M is another thing.
    Air quality levels in Dublin are actually quite good, usually around a 30 AQI.

    One thing I'll add to the health thing:
    We have more than 1500 premature deaths each year here due to poor air quality. People who cycle to work have half the cancer rates of the general population.

    There is a compelling case.


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    #96
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    JustARandomGuy wrote: »
    He's absolutely correct though, while other cities built and improved upon their road infrastructure, especially in cities Dublin has become an overcongested cycle central. Shane Ross would rather have people walk than drive.

    Which cities? The global trend is to finally realize that after 60 years and trillions of euro pandering to the most inefficient mode of transportation isn't work.

    How much more congested would Dublin be if all those on bikes were on other modes?


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    #97
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,316 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    JustARandomGuy wrote: »
    [/B]Dublin has become an overcongested cycle central.
    now, if you were to stop a random punter and ask 'what is the main cause of, and/or who suffers the most from congestion', would you think they'd really say 'bicyclists!'?


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    #98
    sharper
    Registered Users Posts: 1,216 ✭✭✭sharper


    grahambo wrote: »
    I get the point you are trying to make, but unfortunately the Bus service is at capacity, and is still less favorable by a great number of people in Dublin than sitting in their Car for a few hours (cause the service isn't great....

    If the bus service is at capacity then bus capacity is the limiting factor. If buses are also the most efficient means of moving the most people then obviously they need to be prioritised for investment.


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    #99
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    sharper wrote: »
    If the bus service is at capacity then bus capacity is the limiting factor. If buses are also the most efficient means of moving the most people then obviously they need to be prioritised for investment.

    It's walking, cycling, then buses
    https://urbanist.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83454714d69e2017d3c37d8ac970c-800wi


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    #100
    John_Rambo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,499 ✭✭✭John_Rambo


    JustARandomGuy wrote: »
    He's absolutely correct though, while other cities built and improved upon their road infrastructure, especially in cities Dublin has become an overcongested cycle central. Shane Ross would rather have people walk than drive.


    Hello Ireland 1974! Imagine... Children cycling or even WALKING to school, people WALKING to the shops or god forbid... WALKING from the bus TO WORK!!


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    #101
    sharper
    Registered Users Posts: 1,216 ✭✭✭sharper


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    It's walking, cycling, then buses
    https://urbanist.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83454714d69e2017d3c37d8ac970c-800wi

    Thankfully pedestrian access is usually pretty decent throughout Dublin though crossings can be a hassle.

    Busconnects covers cycling as well as bus improvements, the cycling improvements aren't universally loved though. Motorbikes were mentioned above but I think ebikes could really change things for commuting if there was a proper push and people could use them safely without having to mingle with road traffic.


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    #102
    cdaly_
    Registered Users Posts: 6,440 ✭✭✭cdaly_


    John_Rambo wrote: »
    Hello Ireland 1974! Imagine... Children cycling or even WALKING to school, people WALKING to the shops or god forbid... WALKING from the bus TO WORK!!

    You mean like fitter, healthier people WALKING to the shops and even STOPPING for a CHAT* with their neighbours!




    * When was the last time you stopped for a chat with anybody mid-journey?


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    #103
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    sharper wrote: »
    Thankfully pedestrian access is usually pretty decent throughout Dublin though crossings can be a hassle.

    Busconnects covers cycling as well as bus improvements, the cycling improvements aren't universally loved though. Motorbikes were mentioned above but I think ebikes could really change things for commuting if there was a proper push and people could use them safely without having to mingle with road traffic.


    Pedestrian access is terrible in Dublin especially if you're a person with mobility or visual issues. Cars , bikes and vans illegally parked everywhere . Advertising and traffics signs everywhere.

    Cuffe St for example takes 3 minutes to cross if you follow the pedestrian lights.

    The BusConnection cycling "improvements" are a joke


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    #104
    amcalester
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭amcalester


    This thread is gas; the reason motorists are sitting in their cars for hours a day is because there's too many cyclists.

    Cyclists who leave their house later and get to work quicker than motorists are the cause of the congestion, riiiiiight.


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    #105
    Beta Ray Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 3,533 ✭✭✭Beta Ray Bill


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    We have more than 1500 premature deaths each year here due to poor air quality. People who cycle to work have half the cancer rates of the general population.

    There is a compelling case.

    I read this before, this is an EPA report, It states the problem areas are small towns and villages burning fossil fuels, for home heating.

    There is mention of cars producing NO2, but does not say that NO2 contributes to the number of deaths, only that we are approaching an EU limit.

    It should also be noted that the weather in Ireland in quite favorable for dispersion of air pollution.
    sharper wrote: »
    If the bus service is at capacity then bus capacity is the limiting factor. If buses are also the most efficient means of moving the most people then obviously they need to be prioritised for investment.

    when I say Bus service is at capacity I'm not just talk about the number of buses.
    Buying new buses and hiring drivers is easy.

    I'm talking about the fact that on many of the main roads in and out of Dublin, there are sections of the roads that have no Bus lane (Howth Road, Terenure Road, Old Cabra Road, etc).
    I know there is a Bus Connect process to buy land from people to widen the roads, but this is going to cost a fortune. I know if it was my front garden, I'd be looking for 5 times what the land is actually worth (IE Pay off my Mortgage)

    In Places like the Cabra Road and Terenure Road, there is no front garden. which means they'll have to buy the house and demolish it. Again, I'd be looking for ALOT more than what it's worth.
    If everyone bands together on the road and says "No", There is very little the government will be able to do about it.

    I'm also talking about the fact that Bus only areas in Town such as College Green are at capacity, they've had to re route buses from there as the traffic (which is only Buses) at rush hour is so bad.

    Parts of the Clontarf road they have taken away a Bus lane and put in a dedicated cycle track (I will say the cycle track is great!)
    But they could have just widened the road and put in the Cycle lane and a bus lane each way.

    We've a very long way to go.


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    #106
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    grahambo wrote: »
    I know there is a Bus Connect process to buy land from people to widen the roads, but this is going to cost a fortune. I know if it was my front garden, I'd be looking for 5 times what the land is actually worth (IE Pay off my Mortgage)


    We've a very long way to go.

    Selfish car driver would be selfish when it comes to PT improvements , then complains nothing is changing shocker!


  • Options
    #107
    sharper
    Registered Users Posts: 1,216 ✭✭✭sharper


    grahambo wrote: »
    I know there is a Bus Connect process to buy land from people to widen the roads, but this is going to cost a fortune. I know if it was my front garden, I'd be looking for 5 times what the land is actually worth (IE Pay off my Mortgage)

    Luckily that's not how CPO works. It doesn't matter what you want for it, you'll get the market rate and likely a bit more but nobody will be paying off the mortgage for their entire property with it.

    Otherwise anyone anywhere could block necessary infrastructure development waiting for the government to pay them millions because they feel like it. It would even make sense for funds to buy up land where infrastructure is likely to be needed and then wait for the return on investment.


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    #108
    CatInABox
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,232 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    grahambo wrote: »
    I'm talking about the fact that on many of the main roads in and out of Dublin, there are sections of the roads that have no Bus lane (Howth Road, Terenure Road, Old Cabra Road, etc).
    I know there is a Bus Connect process to buy land from people to widen the roads, but this is going to cost a fortune. I know if it was my front garden, I'd be looking for 5 times what the land is actually worth (IE Pay off my Mortgage)

    The level of compensation will be above market rate to entice people to accept the offer, but it won't be crazy money. If you don't accept the offer, then CPO proceedings begin. The CPO value will be significantly less than the compensation offer.
    grahambo wrote: »
    In Places like the Cabra Road and Terenure Road, there is no front garden. which means they'll have to buy the house and demolish it. Again, I'd be looking for ALOT more than what it's worth.
    If everyone bands together on the road and says "No", There is very little the government will be able to do about it.

    There is no part of the BusConnects plan that involves demolition of houses. Absolutely none.

    Where there isn't space for bus and cycle lanes, the cycle lane is usually detoured.
    grahambo wrote: »
    I'm also talking about the fact that Bus only areas in Town such as College Green are at capacity, they've had to re route buses from there as the traffic (which is only Buses) at rush hour is so bad.

    Indeed, this makes the case for more roads being made bus only. The bus gate at college green reduced the number of vehicles passing through, but increased the number of people using it.
    grahambo wrote: »
    Parts of the Clontarf road they have taken away a Bus lane and put in a dedicated cycle track (I will say the cycle track is great!)
    But they could have just widened the road and put in the Cycle lane and a bus lane each way.

    That's because there wasn't enough buses using Clontarf Road, or enough people living in the catchment area to justify having a bus lane there.


  • Options
    #109
    sharper
    Registered Users Posts: 1,216 ✭✭✭sharper


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Pedestrian access is terrible in Dublin especially if you're a person with mobility or visual issues. Cars , bikes and vans illegally parked everywhere . Advertising and traffics signs everywhere.

    Cuffe St for example takes 3 minutes to cross if you follow the pedestrian lights.

    The BusConnection cycling "improvements" are a joke

    Decent is different to great. I wouldn't say pedestrian access in Dublin is great but it is decent. I don't think we would be proposing someone with mobility issues should be commuting to work on foot anyway.

    You need to consider what terrible pedestrian access looks like which is like the US where footpaths often literally don't exist.

    Please don't let perfect be the enemy of good here - busconnects could certainly improve cycling more than it is but there is limited space and limited resources. This is part of the problem of why it's near impossible to deliver anything.


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    #110
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,370 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    grahambo wrote: »
    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    We have more than 1500 premature deaths each year here due to poor air quality. People who cycle to work have half the cancer rates of the general population.

    There is a compelling case.

    I read this before, this is an EPA report, It states the problem areas are small towns and villages burning fossil fuels, for home heating.

    There is mention of cars producing NO2, but does not say that NO2 contributes to the number of deaths, only that we are approaching an EU limit.

    It should also be noted that the weather in Ireland in quite favorable for dispersion of air pollution.

    From http://www.epa.ie/pubs/reports/air/quality/epaairqualityreport2017.html section titled "Problem pollutants"

    Particulate matter from solid fuel burning remains the greatest threat to good air quality in Ireland.
    • This is closely followed by nitrogen dioxide from transport emissions in our urban areas.

    From What Should Be Done section


    Air pollution from transport can be reduced by reducing the number of journeys made using diesel and petrol vehicles.


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    #111
    Qrt
    Registered Users Posts: 1,627 ✭✭✭Qrt


    CatInABox wrote: »
    The level of compensation will be above market rate to entice people to accept the offer, but it won't be crazy money. If you don't accept the offer, then CPO proceedings begin. The CPO value will be significantly less than the compensation offer.



    There is no part of the BusConnects plan that involves demolition of houses. Absolutely none.

    Where there isn't space for bus and cycle lanes, the cycle lane is usually detoured.



    Indeed, this makes the case for more roads being made bus only. The bus gate at college green reduced the number of vehicles passing through, but increased the number of people using it.



    That's because there wasn't enough buses using Clontarf Road, or enough people living in the catchment area to justify having a bus lane there.

    Half the catchment area of the Clontarf Road are marine animals so having it as a main bus corridor doesn’t make much sense like.


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    #112
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    sharper wrote: »

    Please don't let perfect be the enemy of good here - busconnects could certainly improve cycling more than it is but there is limited space and limited resources. This is part of the problem of why it's near impossible to deliver anything.

    Can we let poor be the enemy of the good ? BC isn't good .

    https://irishcycle.com/2019/03/03/how-busconnects-changes-the-roads-around-terenure-on-the-rathfarnham-route/


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    #113
    sharper
    Registered Users Posts: 1,216 ✭✭✭sharper


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Can we let poor be the enemy of the good ? BC isn't good .

    https://irishcycle.com/2019/03/03/how-busconnects-changes-the-roads-around-terenure-on-the-rathfarnham-route/

    There are absolutely parts of the plan that will hopefully be improved, after all we're in the public consultation phase for exactly that reason. I'm personally happy we're in the middle of something that's at least aiming to improve cycling and currently iterating through the improvements needed.

    I would put busconnects at a 50/50 chance of being delivered in anything close to its current form, everything else will be worse for public transport and worse for cyclists.

    Saying the entire plan is bad for cycling is I major disservice I think and only decreases the chances of any improvements happening.


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    #114
    Beta Ray Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 3,533 ✭✭✭Beta Ray Bill


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Selfish car driver would be selfish when it comes to PT improvements , then complains nothing is changing shocker!

    I use the DART, as I've already stated....
    sharper wrote: »
    Luckily that's not how CPO works.

    If it's a large number of people then actually, it's exactly how this works...
    It's political suicide for any TD that backs it too.

    I get what you're saying though in that they need to offer above market rate to get the bulk of the people to accept and then CPO the rest. But it will need to be a VERY good offer.
    sharper wrote: »
    Otherwise anyone anywhere could block necessary infrastructure development waiting for the government to pay them millions because they feel like it.

    This has happened before, but it wasn't over money. They just didn't want X going over their land and infra projects have been delayed in the past over this.
    CatInABox wrote: »
    There is no part of the BusConnects plan that involves demolition of houses. Absolutely none.

    I understand this, the point I was trying to make is that some of the main roads into town just aren't wide enough and if they were Serious about improving the capacity every main road in and out of Town would a bus lane in and out and a cycle lane in and out.
    CatInABox wrote: »
    Where there isn't space for bus and cycle lanes, the cycle lane is usually detoured.

    Then the cyclists wont use the lane (which I'm fine with btw, they have the right to use the road), so it's kind of pointless
    CatInABox wrote: »
    Indeed, this makes the case for more roads being made bus only. The bus gate at college green reduced the number of vehicles passing through, but increased the number of people using it.

    Well it was grand until the Luas came along! :pac:
    My point is that it's backed up now and the buses need to go elsewhere (which does as you say make a case for another "Bus Area" in town)

    The problem people don't seem to get is that Irish people like their cars.
    And people are prepared to sit in them for long periods of time despite there being alternatives that requires a small bit of planning/exercise/time management.

    You could tax the crap out of them similar to the M50 but people will still use their cars.
    2,000 cars a day were using the port tunnel when it first opened
    Today, 20,000 Vehicles use it per day, there is only around 85,000 HGV's entitled to use it for free in the whole of Ireland... you do the maths.

    I'd imagine even if you put a congestion charge in Dublin it wouldn't even make a dent in the number of cars coming into Dublin.
    All you'll do it make people poorer, which is bad enough as it is.

    I don't pretend to have a solution to the traffic problem, I don't know the answer, as the problem has been left unchecked for a very long time. But what I do know is that light touch changes like buying a small piece of people's gardens to put a bus lane on some of the roads into (Not out of) Dublin is not going to work.
    A drastic change is needed that:
    1) Won't harm business in the city
    2) Won't mess up the exchequer
    3) Get's people where they want to go fast and cheap and in relative comfort/safety


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    #115
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    sharper wrote: »

    Saying the entire plan is bad for cycling is I major disservice I think and only decreases the chances of any improvements happening.

    Fair enough a lot of the elements of the public consultation I've seen are bad. We can only hope for better


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    #116
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    grahambo wrote: »
    A drastic change is needed that:
    1) Won't harm business in the city
    2) Won't mess up the exchequer
    3) Get's people where they want to go fast and cheap and in relative comfort/safety

    That sounds like cycling to me.


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    #117
    Beta Ray Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 3,533 ✭✭✭Beta Ray Bill


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    That sounds like cycling to me.

    It'd be to much of a loss to the Exchequer in terms of amount of money spent on Cars.

    Also in the p***ing rain and cold of winter it's not at all comfortable.

    Cycling is more of a lifestyle choice rather than a commuting choice, you gain the ability to commute via cycling if you make that lifestyle choice, not the other way around, as it's not sustainable. IE if you don't like cycling then commuting is gonna be hell for you.

    I gave the cycling thing a bash for a year, I had to admit it was enjoyable for me as I'm fairly into fitness. But I can understand why a hell of a a lot of people would not do it.
    I ended up moving to right beside that DART which is why I stopped.


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    #118
    Thargor
    Registered Users Posts: 17,865 ✭✭✭✭Thargor


    amcalester wrote: »
    This thread is gas; the reason motorists are sitting in their cars for hours a day is because there's too many cyclists.

    Cyclists who leave their house later and get to work quicker than motorists are the cause of the congestion, riiiiiight.
    Didn't you hear? It's all because of the Minister for Transport and his departments massive ''cycling fetish''. The main Donald Trump supporter from the Politics Forum said it so you know it must be true...


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    #119
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    grahambo wrote: »
    It'd be to much of a loss to the Exchequer in terms of amount of money spent on Cars.

    Car cost the exchequer far more than they provide to the exchequer due to environmental damage , health damage and congestion. This is simply fact
    grahambo wrote: »
    Also in the p***ing rain and cold of winter it's not at all comfortable.

    Fairly rarely rains in when your cycling . Winters aren't that cold
    grahambo wrote: »
    I
    Cycling is more of a lifestyle choice rather than a commuting choice, you gain the ability to commute via cycling if you make that lifestyle choice, not the other way around, as it's not sustainable. IE if you don't like cycling then commuting is gonna be hell for you.
    No it's a commuting choice. Do you think people who choose sitting in traffic for hours enjoy it? I'd love my cycle to work but I prefer it more than 90 minutes on the bus


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    #120
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,370 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    grahambo wrote: »
    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    That sounds like cycling to me.

    It'd be to much of a loss to the Exchequer in terms of amount of money spent on Cars.
    I guess the countries that are paying cyclists to cycle might have a different view

    Public health benefits, reduced emissions, reduced traffic - what's not to like?
    https://www.welovecycling.com/wide/2015/10/16/its-official-french-will-get-paid-for-cycling-to-work/


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    #121
    Beta Ray Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 3,533 ✭✭✭Beta Ray Bill


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    I guess the countries that are paying cyclists to cycle might have a different view

    Public health benefits, reduced emissions, reduced traffic - what's not to like?
    https://www.welovecycling.com/wide/2015/10/16/its-official-french-will-get-paid-for-cycling-to-work/

    You've give an example country, where 300,000 people brought the capital (and other major cities) to a halt because of service cuts and extra taxes, less than 6 months ago.
    Which is exactly what will happen here if everyone were to stop using there cars and create a massive hole in the Exchequer OR if we started taxing motorists even more to drive their cars.

    France is not a good example for anything like that.

    In any case the bike to work scheme has been very successful.
    Basically €510 back every 5 years which isn't bad.


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