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Rail line to Adare for Ryder Cup

  • 26-07-2019 10:41am
    #1
    Last Stop
    Registered Users Posts: 920 ✭✭✭


    Great news that Adare will host the Ryder cup in 2026.

    A lot of talk has naturally been about the M21 bypass which I would say is a must but would it be worth considering reopening the section of the Limerick-Foynes line for the event?

    The event will attract approx. 200k people which is a serious amount of car and bus parking that could be reducing significantly if you ran a shuttle train from Limerick every 20 minutes

    It’s around 15km and they have 7 years so I think it’s worth considering.

    Definitely something the Greens should be pushing anyway


«1345678

Comments

  • #2
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,521 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    It would be as easy and vastly cheaper to run shuttle buses. If the line reopens it'll be for freight


  • #3
    average_runner
    Registered Users Posts: 12,844 ✭✭✭✭average_runner


    Last Stop wrote: »
    Great news that Adare will host the Ryder cup in 2026.

    A lot of talk has naturally been about the M21 bypass which I would say is a must but would it be worth considering reopening the section of the Limerick-Foynes line for the event?

    The event will attract approx. 200k people which is a serious amount of car and bus parking that could be reducing significantly if you ran a shuttle train from Limerick every 20 minutes

    It’s around 15km and they have 7 years so I think it’s worth considering.

    Definitely something the Greens should be pushing anyway

    Depends on the cost and how will the tax payer recoup the cost back?
    No profit no line


  • #4
    CrabRevolution
    Registered Users Posts: 2,796 ✭✭✭CrabRevolution


    We struggle to open lines that will serve millions of people all year every year until the end of time. Why would we open an entire line to serve a few thousand people for 3 days?


  • #5
    Vic_08
    Registered Users Posts: 3,041 ✭✭✭Vic_08


    Reasons to open line:
    Significant freight flow.
    Large Commuter base.
    Positive Cost Benefit Analysis.

    Reasons not to open line:
    One-off sporting event.


  • #6
    ncounties
    Registered Users Posts: 270 ✭✭ncounties


    A much better use of the money you propose spending on this line, would be extending the M3 Parkway line ever further.


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  • #7
    Phileas Frog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 946 ✭✭✭Phileas Frog


    Hahahaha, no.


  • #8
    is_that_so
    Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    Vic_08 wrote: »
    Reasons to open line:
    Significant freight flow.
    Large Commuter base.
    Positive Cost Benefit Analysis.

    Reasons not to open line:
    One-off sporting event.
    Then majority of freight goes by road and CIE haven't been involved in a significant way for some time.


  • #9
    Last Stop
    Registered Users Posts: 920 ✭✭✭Last Stop


    So clearly we are stuck with the Irish mentality when it comes to public transport provision.
    I’d like to clarify a few things about my suggestion:
    1. The line serve Adare, Patrickswell and the ever growing suburbs of Limerick. It would be an very popular commuter line if built.

    2. There is no comparison between this and other lines that should be built. We seem to have a mentality of this or that when we should be saying why not both.

    3. A train carries approx. 1000 people. That the equivalent of 10 buses. To cater for 300k people you’d need 300 trains vs 3000 buses. I know the majority will travel by car but if you even had 10 trains per day that would be 40k cars off the road or 400 buses.

    4. One off sporting events are one of the main reasons for building transport infrastructure. The first thing the majority of people said when it was announced was “well they’ll finally get a bypass so” and the N7 was widened for the K club. That’s not to mention countless other examples all over the world


  • #10
    Zebra3
    Registered Users Posts: 13,846 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    Nobody tends to build anything for a one off sports event unless it’s in some tinpot dictatorship.

    What tends to happen with sensible planning is that major sporting events are used as the catalyst to drive infrastructural projects.

    “We have the Olympics in even years time. Our public transport projects must be finished by then, let’s bring in special legislation to get things going”.

    That was part of the reason for London getting the Olympics.


  • #11
    gctest50
    Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    Shouldn't have taken it away in the first place


    f4KhRdz.gif


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  • #12
    Darc19
    Registered Users Posts: 3,817 ✭✭✭Darc19


    Last Stop wrote: »
    So clearly we are stuck with the Irish mentality when it comes to public transport provision.
    I’d like to clarify a few things about my suggestion:
    1. The line serve Adare, Patrickswell and the ever growing suburbs of Limerick. It would be an very popular commuter line if built.

    2. There is no comparison between this and other lines that should be built. We seem to have a mentality of this or that when we should be saying why not both.

    3. A train carries approx. 1000 people. That the equivalent of 10 buses. To cater for 300k people you’d need 300 trains vs 3000 buses. I know the majority will travel by car but if you even had 10 trains per day that would be 40k cars off the road or 400 buses.

    4. One off sporting events are one of the main reasons for building transport infrastructure. The first thing the majority of people said when it was announced was “well they’ll finally get a bypass so” and the N7 was widened for the K club. That’s not to mention countless other examples all over the world

    The capital and ongoing running costs of a train service are huge.

    Average carriage holds max 100 people including standing.

    Even with 6 carriage trains that's max 600.

    Add drivers and other personnel and you're into massive costs.

    Most people want to get into the city 8am-9am not enough time for turnarounds, so at least 12-18 carriages required + 6 engine cars.

    Chance of 40,000 users? Not a chance in hell.

    Then look at busses. Cheaper capital costs, more flexible, quicker turnaround, can be used in many ways during off peak hours.

    Better chance of Rory mcilroy winning the grand slam in one season than a train service.

    N7 widening was planned a long long time before the Ryder cup was announced, but it did speed up the works.


  • #13
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,262 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Limerick should have a a half hourly commuter rail service on 3 lines, i.e. one leaving Colbert every 10 minutes:

    1: Colbert-Childers Rd-Rosbrien Rd/N18(new P &R)-Crescent SC-Russel Estate-N69 P&R
    2: Colbert-Ballysimon Rd-Parkway SC-Corbally Rd.-Moyross
    3: Colbert-Kilmallock Roundabout-Rossmore/industrial estate-New M7/N24 P&R-Limerick Junction

    Once that's in place, a spur from line 2 to serve: N18(new P&R)-Kilteragh-Rosbrien Rd/M20 P&R-Doradoyle Rd-Raheen Business park.

    A simple leap fare should cover from the end of these commuter lines to Colbert, with same fare applying to the buses, unlimited changes for an hour.

    This should be complimented by a frequent bus connects network and a massive network of cycle lanes and largescale pedestrianisation of the city centre.

    After all that, extending the urban rail network to farflung places like Adare should be considered but not before then.

    This mistake was made in Dublin, all the TDs were getting hassled to have the luas extended to their area, regardless of whether the system in the centre was sound and had spare capacity, and completely ignoring how utterly unsuitable on street trams were for serving distant suburbs from the centre. The result is we have a slow tram servicing mountain communities with 1hr plus journey times to the centre and a heavily congested centre with no spare capacity in the system to speak of

    If you want a commuter rail link to Adare, start from scratch, the unused rail lines encircling Limerick have to be providing a reliable, frequent urban rail service first.


  • #14
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users Posts: 6,694 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Isn't the line to Adare single track? And no possibility of through running through Colbert, thereby requiring all trains to turnback? So frequency would be crap, and nothing like what would be needed for a commuter service which would entice people out of their cars, and Colbert would just be a congested mess?


  • #15
    Last Stop
    Registered Users Posts: 920 ✭✭✭Last Stop


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    Nobody tends to build anything for a one off sports event unless it’s in some tinpot dictatorship.

    What tends to happen with sensible planning is that major sporting events are used as the catalyst to drive infrastructural projects.

    “We have the Olympics in even years time. Our public transport projects must be finished by then, let’s bring in special legislation to get things going”.

    That was part of the reason for London getting the Olympics.

    I’m sorry, I can’t agree with this, Qatar is building practically everything for the FIFA World Cup. South Africa did the same for their work cup. Athens the same for the Olympics. While these are on a different scale to the Ryder cup, so is reopening 15km of rail line rather than building entire metro systems


  • #16
    Last Stop
    Registered Users Posts: 920 ✭✭✭Last Stop


    Darc19 wrote: »
    The capital and ongoing running costs of a train service are huge.

    Average carriage holds max 100 people including standing.

    Even with 6 carriage trains that's max 600.

    Add drivers and other personnel and you're into massive costs.

    Most people want to get into the city 8am-9am not enough time for turnarounds, so at least 12-18 carriages required + 6 engine cars.

    Chance of 40,000 users? Not a chance in hell.

    Then look at busses. Cheaper capital costs, more flexible, quicker turnaround, can be used in many ways during off peak hours.

    Better chance of Rory mcilroy winning the grand slam in one season than a train service.

    N7 widening was planned a long long time before the Ryder cup was announced, but it did speed up the works.

    My reference to 40k was for the Ryder cup specifically assuming 10-15 trains per day each direction between say 7-12 towards Adare and 5pm-9pm towards limerick or through services to Dublin.

    You need drivers for buses too and even with 6 carriage trains you’d need 6 bus drivers to move the same amount of passengers so if anything, that favours the train.


  • #17
    Zebra3
    Registered Users Posts: 13,846 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    Last Stop wrote: »
    I’m sorry, I can’t agree with this, Qatar is building practically everything for the FIFA World Cup. South Africa did the same for their work cup. Athens the same for the Olympics. While these are on a different scale to the Ryder cup, so is reopening 15km of rail line rather than building entire metro systems

    We don’t have Qatar’s wealth.

    What public transport projects were built in South Africa for the WC?


  • #18
    Last Stop
    Registered Users Posts: 920 ✭✭✭Last Stop


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    We don’t have Qatar’s wealth.

    What public transport projects were built in South Africa for the WC?

    Which is why I’m suggesting reopening a 15km rail line and not building a brand new metro from scratch.

    South Africa built the Gautrain between Pretoria and Johannesburg for the world cup


  • #19
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,790 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Last Stop wrote: »
    I’m sorry, I can’t agree with this, Qatar is building practically everything for the FIFA World Cup. South Africa did the same for their work cup. Athens the same for the Olympics. While these are on a different scale to the Ryder cup, so is reopening 15km of rail line rather than building entire metro systems

    Greece and South Africa are both highly corrupt countries that were left millions in debt with multiple white elephant projects after those. Reopening 15k of rail for 1 week would also be a white elephant.
    Last Stop wrote: »
    South Africa built the Gautrain between Pretoria and Johannesburg for the world cup

    It wasn't built for the world cup. It was announced in 2000 before SA won the world cup and it wasn't finished unitl 2012.


  • #20
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,262 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    Isn't the line to Adare single track? And no possibility of through running through Colbert, thereby requiring all trains to turnback? So frequency would be crap, and nothing like what would be needed for a commuter service which would entice people out of their cars, and Colbert would just be a congested mess?

    A 3 line commuter rail system with each line having half hourly service is reasonable and quite doable with single track, the Doradoyle-Colbert section would have to e double tracked eventually. Starting a commuter rail service JUST to serve Adare, is daft, a whole network approach is required. Colbert wouldn't be a mess at all, it'd be accommodating 1 train every 10 mins, much smaller stations in Dublin accommodate this type of service.


  • #21
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,262 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Last Stop wrote: »
    I’m sorry, I can’t agree with this, Qatar is building practically everything for the FIFA World Cup. South Africa did the same for their work cup. Athens the same for the Olympics. While these are on a different scale to the Ryder cup, so is reopening 15km of rail line rather than building entire metro systems

    All these countries are rife with corruption and only interested in showmanship on the international stage rather than actually improving public transport long term. Have a look at London's prep for the olympics, much more low key with everything given an afteruse function. The Athens olympic village is still rotting away afaik.


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  • #22
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,790 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    cgcsb wrote: »
    A 3 line commuter rail system with each line having half hourly service is reasonable and quite doable with single track, the Doradoyle-Colbert section would have to e double tracked eventually. Starting a commuter rail service JUST to serve Adare, is daft, a whole network approach is required. Colbert wouldn't be a mess at all, it'd be accommodating 1 train every 10 mins, much smaller stations in Dublin accommodate this type of service.

    Are any of those stations end of the line stations?


  • #23
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,262 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Cookiemunster wrote: »
    Are any of those stations end of the line stations?

    Malahide, Howth, Bray and Greystones. Graystones does it with one track. Grand Canal Dock does frequent turn arounds in a much tighter space.

    If Limerick commuter rail was built to a good standard and electrified, it'd be no problem at all to accommodate one departure and one arrival every 10 mins.


  • #24
    Last Stop
    Registered Users Posts: 920 ✭✭✭Last Stop


    Cookiemunster wrote: »
    Greece and South Africa are both highly corrupt countries that were left millions in debt with multiple white elephant projects after those. Reopening 15k of rail for 1 week would also be a white elephant.



    It wasn't built for the world cup. It was announced in 2000 before SA won the world cup and it wasn't finished unitl 2012.

    That’s the point, it wouldn’t be reopened for 1 week. It would be reopened as a commuter line based on the opportunity the Ryder cup offers.


  • #25
    Last Stop
    Registered Users Posts: 920 ✭✭✭Last Stop


    cgcsb wrote: »
    All these countries are rife with corruption and only interested in showmanship on the international stage rather than actually improving public transport long term. Have a look at London's prep for the olympics, much more low key with everything given an afteruse function. The Athens olympic village is still rotting away afaik.

    London invested heavily in its public transport network for the games.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-dorset-12769307 They built a £70m road to connect to the sailing venue so while it has an after use, this was built as a result of hosting the Olympics


  • #26
    Last Stop
    Registered Users Posts: 920 ✭✭✭Last Stop


    cgcsb wrote: »
    A 3 line commuter rail system with each line having half hourly service is reasonable and quite doable with single track, the Doradoyle-Colbert section would have to e double tracked eventually. Starting a commuter rail service JUST to serve Adare, is daft, a whole network approach is required. Colbert wouldn't be a mess at all, it'd be accommodating 1 train every 10 mins, much smaller stations in Dublin accommodate this type of service.

    You can’t just build a whole network from day 1. It needs to be developed over time. The line to Adare is one part of the potential overall network. Between Adare and Doradoyle could easily be single track with Doradoyle-Colbert double track.


  • #27
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,262 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Last Stop wrote: »
    London invested heavily in its public transport network for the games.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-dorset-12769307 They built a £70m road to connect to the sailing venue so while it has an after use, this was built as a result of hosting the Olympics

    Everything they built has an after use. A solitary rail line to Adare would not


  • #28
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,262 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Last Stop wrote: »
    You can’t just build a whole network from day 1. It needs to be developed over time. The line to Adare is one part of the potential overall network. Between Adare and Doradoyle could easily be single track with Doradoyle-Colbert double track.

    To built a network you start in the centre and target the busiest routes first. Adare isn't anywhere near the busiest route. There's no cause to start with somewhere so far out from the urban area


  • #29
    Last Stop
    Registered Users Posts: 920 ✭✭✭Last Stop


    cgcsb wrote: »
    Everything they built has an after use. A solitary rail line to Adare would not

    It would serve as a commuter line to Limerick


  • #30
    Last Stop
    Registered Users Posts: 920 ✭✭✭Last Stop


    cgcsb wrote: »
    To built a network you start in the centre and target the busiest routes first. Adare isn't anywhere near the busiest route. There's no cause to start with somewhere so far out from the urban area

    15km is not a major distance from the city centre. Swords, Bray etc are further away from Dublin. This would allow Adare become a commuter town with a sustainable form of transport. The route would serve large commuter areas of the city such as Doradoyle.


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  • #31
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,262 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Last Stop wrote: »
    It would serve as a commuter line to Limerick

    A city which currently has no commuter rail network. Talk about Cart before horse.


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