Should we allow Irish to die out?

Samaris · 17-09-2016 3:33pm

I can't agree with it being hyperbole. I live in an Irish-speaking community (I don't speak it myself, moved here for work reasons as remarkable as that sentence is, come to think of it), and the younger kids, while they do speak Irish, don't speak the Irish of their parents quite often. It's less fluent even here. My father, who comes from the region I live in now, was fluent, but none of his children were. We have seen a slow decline of the language even in the past thirty, twenty years, and it follows the same pattern as many minority languages around the world.

There's upsides and downsides. Better communication across the world in a globalised community is a good thing. Language is one of the huge barriers, probably just above culture in general, to our communication and understanding of each other. On the other hand, language is such a huge part of what we are, how we think. It is history of a culture and the expression of a unique culture, and each language sums up something that cannot be found anywhere else in the world but where it is spoken. It is always sad to lose knowledge and that is what we lose when a minority language dies out.

Having said that, I'm sitting out in the yard and I can hear Irish being spoken normally and everyday right at the moment

I don't understand a word of it, but it's nice to hear.

riclad · 17-09-2016 10:05pm

I Lived in a small rural town for 10 years ,i never heard anyone speaking irish
outside school.
I understand in the gaeltacht and in gaelscoils people speak irish.
Its spoken by a minority .
Forcing everyone to study does,nt seem to be working.
Maybe its thriving in gaelscoils and in the gaeltacht .
In most areas its not the language of the ordinary people .
I was making the point that modern companys like google
would not give high priority in an interview because someone is good
at irish .
So for most people it wont help you to get a job.
Apart from giving you points which might enable you to apply for a
certain course at university .
So young people may believe it has no value in the world outside school .
Only a small percentage of students end up working as
primary or secondary teachers .

Inspector Coptoor · 17-09-2016 10:19pm

Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam

Grayson · 17-09-2016 11:06pm

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam

what?

Boater123 · 18-09-2016 3:22pm

Grayson wrote: »

what?

No, look back its "Céard".

Pugzilla · 18-09-2016 3:30pm

Irish has been on life support for years, being kept artificially alive by the education system.

Take that support away and its extinct within a few years. Not a real language if it's not self sustaining.

Most of the Irish spoken in the Gaeltacht is bearlachas anyways. Only place real irish is spoken is in academics.

riclad · 18-09-2016 4:02pm

We have irish traditional music, poetry ,short storys .
Irish will survive as a minority interest ,maybe supported by tg4 and irish radio stations .
Its like certain issues ,like divorce ,
governments avoid taking action on political issues ,unless they feel the support is there for change to happen.
in 10 years time when the millennial generation grow up ,
they may push for changes in education .
Like better tech education.
Irish becoming a voluntary subject.
Basically irish governments tend to be cowardly until they feel they have support for change to happen.
we have urgent problems like the health service, the housing crisis .
More important than the irish language .

MRnotlob606 · 18-09-2016 4:04pm

511 wrote: »

Let it die, Irish people generally seem to have less brain cells than other Western European states. I would have preferred if my time in religion and Irish class was spent on more useful subjects.

What a dumb statement to make.

jimmy blevins · 18-09-2016 4:36pm

Pugzilla wrote: »

Irish has been on life support for years, being kept artificially alive by the education system.

Take that support away and its extinct within a few years. Not a real language if it's not self sustaining.

Most of the Irish spoken in the Gaeltacht is bearlachas anyways. Only place real irish is spoken is in academics.

I'd say it's the education system that's killing it.

Boater123 · 18-09-2016 5:10pm

Watching the match there and thinking about some of the posts here.

Perhaps we should get rid of the GAA too!! After all its unlikely to impress a Google interviewer and sure isn't soccer the international ball game.

Say goodbye to hurling, camogie and handball as well.:rolleyes:

Maybe we should get rid of traditional music and Irish dancing, and all other things that are inherently Irish.

If the West Brits and 51st staters do not wish to speak or use Irish after their education is over, that's their choice. Maybe if they tried though, even just a little, they would see the language is not that dead as they would like to think it is.

LordSutch · 18-09-2016 5:51pm

Boater123 wrote: »

Perhaps we should get rid of the GAA too!! After all its unlikely to impress a Google interviewer and sure isn't soccer the international ball game.

GAA is totally self sustaining, its very popular with children (and adults) who play it because they want to . . . . not because the have to, unlike Irish, which all Irish children must go through, in the hope that one day everybody will start speaking Irish as their 1st language!!! (yet, after nine decades of mandatory Irish this still hasen't worked).

Football (association) is an international sport, people play it becasuse they like it.

Boater123 wrote: »

Say goodbye to hurling, camogie and handball as well.:rolleyes:

I don't know why you mention them in addition to GAA? surely they are also GAA sports? and nobody is arguing that GAA sports should be got rid of.

Boater123 wrote: »

Maybe we should get rid of traditional music and Irish dancing, and all other things that are inherently Irish.

No no no, that would be silly, and counterproductive.

Boater123 wrote: »

If the West Brits and 51st staters do not wish to speak or use Irish after their education is over, that's their choice. Maybe if they tried though, even just a little, they would see the language is not that dead as they would like to think it is.

Thing is, most of the population don't speak Irish as their 1st language, so does that make them all 'West Brits'?

Pugzilla · 18-09-2016 6:23pm

jimmy blevins wrote: »

I'd say it's the education system that's killing it.

How many people are going to go out of their way to learn a complex language that almost no one uses in real life?

Boater123 · 18-09-2016 6:28pm

LordSutch wrote: »

GAA is totally self sustaining, its very popular with children (and adults) who play it because they want to . . . . not because the have to, unlike Irish, which all Irish children must go through, in the hope that one day everybody will start speaking Irish as their 1st language!!! (yet, after nine decades of mandatory Irish this still hasen't worked).

Football (association) is an international sport, people play it becasuse they like it.

I don't know why you mention them in addition to GAA? surely they are also GAA sports? and nobody is arguing that GAA sports should be got rid of.

No no no, that would be silly, and counterproductive.

Thing is, most of the population don't speak Irish as their 1st language, so does that make them all 'West Brits'?

Do you know what roll eyes means :rolleyes:

My point was the arguments given already that Irish should die out, or be helped to, can equally be applied to GAA, Irish dancing music etc.

All of which, including the language are intrinsically Irish.

My point about west brits was that there are Irish who can speak the language, even in part, but refuse to do so. That if they even tried a word or two in every day situations they might get a pleasant surprise when they are answered as gaeilge.

jimmy blevins · 18-09-2016 7:10pm

Pugzilla wrote: »

How many people are going to go out of their way to learn a complex language that almost no one uses in real life?

There's plenty up north who do.

riclad · 18-09-2016 7:28pm

This goes back 200 years ,outside the gaeltacht ,english is used by ordinary people in daily life,
to chat,do work,learn in school,meet a partner etc
its nothing to do with being a west brit .
Irish won,t die out, it ,ll be a minority interest like ceili,irish dancing,
a part of culture .
Try and open a barber shop, supermarket ,car garage, run a business ,
in cork, or dublin ,
its impossible to do it without speaking english everyday.
English is the language of the people ,
people in the gaeltacht speak irish and english .
Irish should not die out ,no more than gaa should die out.
Our government does not spend billions on teaching every young person
to play gaa football or hurling or how to play the fiddle .
Some people play football or hurling ,
but NO one is forced to do so ,
its a pastime or a sport ,
they don,t even get paid for it .
IF irish was voluntary in school ,.
i,d say about 10 per cent would opt to study it and good luck to them.

Boom_Bap · 18-09-2016 7:35pm

Irish is deadly, nothing better that when you meet a fellow Irish speaker abroad, the other folk are speaking their native tongue and you know they are talking about you........you can give a sly nod to the other Irish speaker and say 'Sneachta' loudly.
The other conversation stops in confusion, you nod again at the fellow Irish speaker, nod and ask him if you can go to the toilet.

Ireland wins.

ToddyDoody · 18-09-2016 8:22pm

Not on your life, that EU grant money is ours!!

Badly Drunk Boy · 18-09-2016 10:16pm

Pugzilla wrote: »

It's a problem when most of the world's populaton cannot understand each other.

So do you recommend the abandonment all languages in the world except English? Or maybe we'll keep the top 10 languages only? The anti-Irish, anti-learning, anti-knowledge Philistines in these sort of threads make me sick.

Pugzilla · 18-09-2016 10:23pm

Badly Drunk Boy wrote: »

So do you recommend the abandonment all languages in the world except English? Or maybe we'll keep the top 10 languages only? The anti-Irish, anti-learning, anti-knowledge Philistines in these sort of threads make me sick.

Mulitlingualism is a barrier to progress. The world will inevtiably become a single superstate, whether it will be this century or the next I don't know. Vast majority of languages will die out when this happens.

English has become the global language of science, so how could this trend towards an increasingly smaller group of dominant languages be considered a form of
anti-intellectualism?

Badly Drunk Boy · 18-09-2016 10:51pm

Pugzilla wrote: »

English has become the global language of science, so how could this trend towards an increasingly smaller group of dominant languages be considered a form of
anti-intellectualism?

In one of your earlier posts, you cited History as being one of the worthwhile subjects to study at school. Why and how is that worthwhile in your everyday life? (I'm not saying that it isn't...I'm just wondering how.)

As part of the course I did in college 25 years ago, I had a option to learn ancient (but not classical) Greek, so I went for it...even though I was never particularly good at languages. To this day, my knowledge of the English language benefits from having learnt Koiné Greek almost by accident, e.g. I can see a word I've never seen before and take a fairly good guess as to its meaning.

What is immediately relevant to us doesn't exist in a bubble. A lot of things happened to get us to where we are now, and they shouldn't be forgotten, whether we're talking about languages, ideas, or events.

Pugzilla · 18-09-2016 11:10pm

Badly Drunk Boy wrote: »

In one of your earlier posts, you cited History as being one of the worthwhile subjects to study at school. Why and how is that worthwhile in your everyday life? (I'm not saying that it isn't...I'm just wondering how.)

Wasn't me that posted that, but I love history, espcecially ancient greece and rome.

Having multiple languages are only useful from a historical perspective for etymology etc. No need for it today. They're redundant. Interesting to read about, but that's about it.

feargale · 18-09-2016 11:57pm

These Irish language threads are a waste of time, same old, same old. They simply attract anti-Irish bigots like bees to honey and also people with an obsessive anti-Brit attitude.
Those who care for the Irish language would serve their cause better if they posted now and again in Irish language threads. Some of those who start these threads never do so.
The late Paddy Hillery was a lover of the Irish language. When he was Minister for Education he once said that the way to revive Irish was to speak it, not speak about it. I have never understood this wish to push it on those who have no interest in it. It's counterproductive, and if I had my way I would ensure it was unavailable to people who detest it so much.
If Dev, instead of trousering Irish Press shares created by public subscription, had used them to set up an Irish language version of the Irish Press he would have served both the language and his party better. Those who clamoured to make Irish an official language of the EU ( a pointless exercise ) could have achieved the same objective, i.e. an Irish language newspaper, for a fraction of the price.
What emerges again and again in these threads is a lack of respect, both for those who are not bound to the Irish language by heritage or inclination and for those who are born into the language and those who value it as much as religion.
Is it just an Irish thing or is it universal, this inability or unwillingness to comprehend, respect and tolerate that which is different?

riclad · 19-09-2016 12:10am

The irish people decide how language develops ,slang changes ,accents change .
We communicate with other countrys through english,
and some irish people learn german ,french etc as part of their education.
Irish is not an international language .
Other countrys are aware we speak english.If irish was made to be taken as a voluntary subject at least the people who study it will love it and speak it .Languages like german and italian are living languages .
As in everyone born in german learns to speak it ,as part of a natural
learning process like i learned to speak english before i went to school .
The problem we have is most people do not naturally learn
irish ,we go to school to learn it.Maybe some students put alot of effort into it because they like it,or they points in irish to get the third level course they want to apply for.
So as far as i see if you don,t intend go to college you,d be better off putting
more energy into studying a science subject or even french or german.
Which will help you to get a job in the real world .

GerB40 · 19-09-2016 12:22am

I'm proud of very few things but being an Irish speaker is one of them. In a historical context rather than a political one.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 19-09-2016 12:36am

JupiterKid wrote: »

For over 90 years now successive generations of Irish children have been taught Irish in schools and it is considered our national language but despite this only 1% or even less of the population are Gaelgeoirs on a daily basis.

The shrinkage of the Gaeltacht is an area of real concern. In 1926, just after independence, 15 of the 26 counties included a Gaeltacht area, including most of Galway, most of Donegal, half of Kerry and much of Waterford. By 2007, these areas had shrunk to such an extent that only a tiny area at the tip of the Dingle peninsula, part of South Connemara and part of West Donegal were considered monoglot Gaeltacht areas. Indeed, a 2007 study suggested that by the end of the 2020s that Irish will be a minority spoken language in all the current Gaeltacht areas.

What do boardsies think of the situation? Should we just let Irish die out or should we be making every effort to preserve or revive it?

PS: tried to attach some maps but was unable to!

"Let it die"? You make it sound like the poeple who do regularly speak it (and it's a figure a bit higher than 1%) shouldn't have a choice here.

Preserve yes - but that happens anyway. It's not in any grave danger. Revive - yes without forcing people (and I include anyone over the age of 14 in that) to participate in said revival.

CdeC · 19-09-2016 12:47pm

Bring it back as a social language.

Offer free courses, social nights and encourage the use of phrases mixed in with English.
Only teach in school as a conversational language and if people want to they can study it as an academic subject if they like for the LC.
Include some Irish dance classes and tin whistle and Bodhran lessons as well so we can be chatting in Irish and dancing like Michael Flatley every weekend.

riclad · 19-09-2016 1:02pm

There,s no chance of irish being revived ,90 per cent of people just speak english.At least 10 per cent of our population is non national ,
people coming from poland, france etc
the Logical thing to do is make learning irish voluntary.
Let students pick a science subject or it tech as a subject instead.
Theres no chance of everyone speaking irish everyday than there is
any chance of people giving up driving cars and using a tractor to go to work.

Permabear · 19-09-2016 1:48pm

This post has been deleted.

Should we allow Irish to die out?

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