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Despite the scandals...

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Comments

  • #62
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,257 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    Achasanai wrote: »
    I imagine that applies to popes, archbishops, bishops, and priests. Where does Catholicism begin and individual actions end?

    Cognitive dissonance makes the world go round


  • #63
    antiskeptic
    Registered Users Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    splinter65 wrote: »
    If you break the rules of the Catholic Church to the extent that those who committed, and covered up, the heinous abuses, then you’ve excommunicated yourself really. You can keep going to the sacraments and pretending that you are but youre not.

    Which begs the question:

    were they Catholics at the time of their offending and excommunicated themselves as a result of their offences.

    Or did they excommunicate themselves before they committed the offences.
    Only a tiny percentage of the worlds Catholics perpetrated or enabled the abusers.

    Your point was that they weren't Catholics. It seems they were .. at the time of the offences
    The fact that the vast vast majority are totally innocent indicates that Catholiscm and it’s mechanisms was really just a route to get access to victims for the evil people.

    Isn't all sin evil? You seem to be drawing an arbitrary line: below a certain line of evil acts, a person ceases to be a Catholic.

    We don’t say that Scouting is responsible for creating abusers, or Swimming clubs or families, where by far the most abusing goes on, so why would we blame Catholicism?

    If Scouting buried the issue as the Catholic church did then we would well say that Scouting is responsible. Putting people in positions of power, not monitoring the exercise of that power (since power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely, something even the dog in the street knows) and burying abuse of power..

    ..doth creation of abusers make


  • #64
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 33,801 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    I happened across this thread earlier today:

    Cardinal Sean Brady aware of abuse in 1975

    Over seven years later, and despite the appointment of a new pope with yet more promises to deal with those who facilitated abuse, Sean Brady is still a cardinal.

    Life ain't always empty.



  • #65
    kneemos
    Registered Users Posts: 20,407 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    splinter65 wrote: »
    When you find some evidence to support your allegation that children are being sexually abused and enslaved and otherwise abused by the RCC in Ireland in 2019 or even over the last 10 years then bring it here and we will discuss it. Because that is what is being claimed. And that is lies.


    Telling that you specified "in Ireland".

    Plenty of abuse going on elsewhere,and little interest to put a stop to it.
    It is and always has been a reactive rather than a proactive response to abuse.


  • #66
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,088 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    kneemos wrote: »
    Telling that you specified "in Ireland".

    Plenty of abuse going on elsewhere,and little interest to put a stop to it.
    It is and always has been a reactive rather than a proactive response to abuse.

    and a very slow reaction at that.


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  • #67
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,455 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    kneemos wrote: »
    It is and always has been a reactive rather than a proactive response to abuse.


    The church has been extremely pro active as soon as they found out about abuse!

    Oh wait... You mean in a manner that safe guarded children rather then protecting the church's image.....


  • #68
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,637 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    Splinter65, you keep deflecting and trying to bring scouts into it. Would that be the Catholic Boy Scouts of Ireland, later CSI and now part of Scouting Ireland?

    You are aware that Father Tom and Ernest Farrell founded the association, right? That most scout meetings took place in parish halls and later in halls built by the scout units on church land, right? That scout camps had catholic chaplains attending, right?

    That scouts had unit mass and parades and were forced to do so because the scout unit was seen as part of the parish? That catholic priests attended unit council (equivalent to board of management) meeting and knew every boy on a first name basis.

    That priests took part in every single aspect of scouting and were the ones who could decide which lay person could become a scout leader or not. You know all this, right? Because I certainly do.

    You try to deflect, but can only point your finger at an organization that took until the late 1990’s (and for some, later) to get out from under the thumb of the same priests who were responsible for systematic abuse of children throughout their parishes.

    It took my old unit years to shake off the local PP, a strange man with far too much interest in boys and as someone who was involved at local, regional and national levels, I can assure you this was not an experience limited to my own unit (now group).

    Level blame squarely at organizations and institutions for failing to act, but accept (because failure to do so makes you look like a fool) that the Catholic Church had it’s part to play in allowing abuse to permeate all groups or associations with youth membership in Ireland.

    You know well that the PP’s control extended far beyond the boundaries of the chapel grounds. If anything was happening, anything at all untoward, he knew of it. Sure isn’t that the main reason why Catholics are told to confess their sins to a man in garb, when all other Christians do perfectly well by praying to their god directly?

    Control. It’s all about control. That belonged to the Catholic Church.

    Never again.


  • #69
    kneemos
    Registered Users Posts: 20,407 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    Cabaal wrote: »
    The church has been extremely pro active as soon as they found out about abuse!

    Oh wait... You mean in a manner that safe guarded children rather then protecting the church's image.....


    Cases in point.
    https://cruxnow.com/news-analysis/2019/03/31/selling-people-the-vatican-gets-it-on-abuse-a-challenge-right-now/


  • #70
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    splinter65 wrote: »
    You describe the abuse as ongoing over the last 50 years. It isn’t. Its very simple. Once again if you know of anyone at all who is abusing a child or an adult, enslaving raping or illegally burying or in any way breaking the law then you need to contact the Gardai.
    I don’t think that it’s going to be the findings that any of the babies in Tuam were murdered. That’s my opinion, you don’t know any more about what the report is going to find then anyone else. You’ll just have to wait and see.

    It has already been established by the investigations already done at tuam and other mother and baby homes that many of the children did not die from natural causes. Some were literally neglected to death. No medical care, no nourishment. And then thrown into empty septic tanks naked, unwrapped atop of other dead babies . And the "nuns" were paid £5 sterling by the council for each "burial" which is the only reason death certs were ever signed... by the nuns by the way

    Maybe spend Holy Week researching, reading all the evidence? All the contents of the reports are easy to find online. The findings are almost all found and excavation has started at the Sean Ross Abbey home now after info given by local folk, and then there are the other eight homes that are to be excavated etc.

    And all the abusers were irish men and women working against their own people

    Oh and look up Letterfrack too. a hidden graveyard with around 100 boys buried there, from 6 onwards, cruelly abused

    Overseas commntators call the abuse here genocide, Irish abusing Irish

    I entered the Catholic church when I came to Ireland nearly 20 years ago. Always a solid Christian from young childhood.
    My first year here the first abuse scandal broke. Goldenbridge. We all thought that that was it
    But it is a bottomless pit.
    It really is and we are not at the bottom yet

    I am still a devout and faithful Christian in the deepest sense and know many fine Catholics who are becoming more and more alienated.

    Not simply by the abuse but by the attitude you express.

    Jesus, Son of God saviour, purity, love , total goodness. How could He remain in this establishment?

    Last year I took some visitors to Blennerville, the working windmill. There were old millstones propped up against the mill and I remembered the words of jesus, telling us that it were better for any who ab used children that a millstone were tied around their necks and they were cast into the water

    Please, take time to read and to listen. Please.

    It was a hard and shocking process for me to take that journey of fact finding with every academic skill I have. I am through to a place of grieving peace and reality now, my faith in Jesus stronger than ever.


  • #71
    hinault
    Registered Users Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    splinter65 wrote: »
    https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/despite-scandals-over-1000-british-to-become-catholic-at-easter

    Great to see this. It’s amazing considering all the horrific things done by people pretending to be Catholics that these people can see past that and discover that there is only one thing that’s true and real and that’s Catholicism.

    It is great to see this, I agree.

    Jesus gave humanity the Catholic Church to deliver the only means of Salvation.


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  • #72
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,637 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    hinault wrote: »
    It is great to see this, I agree.

    Jesus gave humanity the Catholic Church to deliver the only means of Salvation.

    The Catholic Church will deliver the only means of salvation? If what they deliver is salvation, you can keep it so.

    'Save yourselves' and do the rest of us a favour: stop injecting your beliefs into the education of innocent children (especially the pure crap about being born into sin, you fools), stop covering up systematic and ongoing abuse of children and vulnerable young men and women, preying on single mothers and uneducated fools who will be easily swayed to follow the teachings of anyone who believes they have the only means of salvation to offer the world.

    A few converts means nothing to anyone but yourselves. I bet 100 times as many would have 'left' on Easter if the Catholic Church hadn't effectively made it impossible to do so. Honestly, I'd urinate on a chalice full of 'The Eucharist' (utter nonsense) or into the tabernacle if it would result in an actual termination of your claim to me as a Catholic.

    Just because some morons decide now would be a good time to join the flock, doesn't mean you've anything to contribute towards saving anyone from anything. You can't even save the children from your clergy, can you?


  • #73
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,088 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    JayZeus wrote: »
    The Catholic Church will deliver the only means of salvation? If what they deliver is salvation, you can keep it so.

    'Save yourselves' and do the rest of us a favour: stop injecting your beliefs into the education of innocent children (especially the pure crap about being born into sin, you fools), stop covering up systematic and ongoing abuse of children and vulnerable young men and women, preying on single mothers and uneducated fools who will be easily swayed to follow the teachings of anyone who believes they have the only means of salvation to offer the world.

    A few converts means nothing to anyone but yourselves. I bet 100 times as many would have 'left' on Easter if the Catholic Church hadn't effectively made it impossible to do so. Honestly, I'd urinate on a chalice full of 'The Eucharist' (utter nonsense) or into the tabernacle if it would result in an actual termination of your claim to me as a Catholic.

    Just because some morons decide now would be a good time to join the flock, doesn't mean you've anything to contribute towards saving anyone from anything. You can't even save the children from your clergy, can you?

    Most likely they converted because they think the Church of England have become too soft on homosexuals and others the converts would like to see burn in hell.


  • #74
    Dublinandy2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 772 ✭✭✭Dublinandy2


    hinault wrote: »
    It is great to see this, I agree.

    Jesus gave humanity the Catholic Church to deliver the only means of Salvation.


    Jesus gave us salvation, not the Catholic Church. Humans seeking power gave us the Catholic Church.


    To be a Christian is not to be a catholic,or Protestant or any denomination, it is to follow Christ and His law, the new testament.


    Sorry to go off topic, if I am but it’s statements like this which people who haven’t studied the word will believe at face value.


  • #75
    kelly1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    Dublinandy2 wrote: »
    To be a Christian is not to be a catholic,or Protestant or any denomination, it is to follow Christ and His law, the new testament.
    Which law did the first Christians follow before the NT was assembled around AD390? And who guarded the "deposit of faith"?


  • #76
    Nobelium
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭Nobelium


    hinault wrote: »
    Jesus gave humanity the Catholic Church to deliver the only means of Salvation.

    And what a balls they made of it, always on about what others should be doing instead of what they themselves should be doing.


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