Are Landlords really getting these prices

gurramok · 25-02-2011 10:51pm

I've stated consistently that in my area (Ringsend/Docklands/Ballsbridge), rents have stickied for about 18months. That is for 2 reasons:

1 -because of new large employers in the area. Those are Google and Facebook where they mostly employ foreigners who only rent not buy and they are still hiring.
2 - Rent Supplement, at least 3 families in my small complex of about 30 apts are on this. There maybe more but i do not know everyone here

I do know of a few families receiving this in the larger apt complex next door.

On empties, there are a few near the new Grand Canal theatre. Have a peep in the windows when ye are down there. There are a large number of empties in Spencer Dock, these are NAMA fully built properties, these are the ones Monty maybe referring to.

panda100 · 25-02-2011 11:18pm

Totally relating to everything being said on this thread!

I moved out of my apartment in Cork today after the landlord decided to up the rent on me after Christmas. It wasn't too bad because I had planned to move up to Dublin anyway this month as I got a new job. I really looked after the house and was a very quiet tenant,never bothered landlord and didn't sign a lease or anything. He rocked up to me before Christmas and said he thought he could get €560 for the place, and I was only paying €450. He was a builder and having done very well out of the Celtic Tiger I think he thinks money is still splashing around the place with young people.
It wasn't luxurious accommodation by far, and the girl underneath me who was meditated very loudly until 3 in the morning, was on rent allowance.

Its frustrating because taxes are going up, pay is going down and rents are still extortionate!!

MIN2511 · 26-02-2011 8:52am

My house mate and i have been looking for the last 2 months and we still haven't found an apartment.
We have to move out of our current apartment by next weekend; the pressure is on

The amount of below par and dirty apartments available is unbelievable.... Daft is the only proper site and the other websites are duplicates; it's wrecking my head

tara73 · 26-02-2011 12:42pm

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Don't forget that rent allowance distorts the market by putting an artificially high floor on rents. Thus, any kind of kip of bedsit at all will cost 400 euros, whereas in (wealthy, non-IMF-run) Berlin, 400 will get you a nice 2 bed apartment.

The state pays for half of all rented accommodation in this country - if we saw the rent allowance slashed, then landlords could not rely on getting a bare minimum of 400 plus for any dump, and rents would fall for everyone (including those on rent allowance of course). We'd be saving the state a fortune and allowing private renters to rent at lower prices (giving them more spending money to pour back into the economy). The downside would be that struggling BTL owners might go bust - but I don't see why it's fair to distort the market and screw everyone else for the benefit of landlords.

this is still always and always the argument and I still say it's not the main point for the high rents. It's actually BS.
As one other poster asked before: why do the majority of landlords don't want tenants on RA? doesn't go in line with the argument, eh?

I think the main point is that it still didn't, almost 3 years after the property crash, reached the brain of many landlords, that there are no immigrants/or as well young (graduates) irish professionals anymore who don't care if the place is a kip, they pay almost any amount of rent as what is left from their salary is still double, triple or whatever figure of the money they would get at home.
there are no people anymore wo don't care if the place is crappy as they will live there only temporary and they don't need/want to feel at home as their home is elsewhere.

in a nutshell: there is still the delusion that the good times are not gone or that they will come back any time soon.
they don't understand that they need to renovate their rental property to find a tenant. so they rather leave it empty as they think they will get the high rent as the good times are just around the corner and it will make up for the lost out rent....
believe me, many landlords are not very clever, they can't do maths, they only now the good times and know nothing about competition and real business.

so said, I agree with other posters that there are many chancers as well, so don't give up asking to reduce the rent. If you look hard, you'll get what you want for a good price these days. Just takes a bit of effort and search.

good luck!

Monty Burnz · 26-02-2011 1:07pm

tara73 wrote: »

this is still always and always the argument and I still say it's not the main point for the high rents. It's actually BS.
As one other poster asked before: why do the majority of landlords don't want tenants on RA? doesn't go in line with the argument, eh?

I already explained that. As I said, most landlords DO accept rent allowance, and RA pays for half of all the rented properties in the country. That is where the bottom price that a property will rent for is set. Lower RA, and all rents will fall by the same amount, more or less.

The frustrating thing is that there are many thousands of shiny new apartments that are totally empty, owned by the Irish taxpayer, that are being deliberately kept off the market and allowed to slowly rot - another government intervention that is harming the public and fouling up the market. :mad:

Amhran Nua · 28-02-2011 12:55am

tara73 wrote: »

As one other poster asked before: why do the majority of landlords don't want tenants on RA?

Quite a few of the ones who don't take RA just don't declare their income. Revenue did a sting on several areas a while back and collected a nice big pile of back taxes, long may it continue.

I don't think that RA is neccessarily putting a floor on rental prices, although it is a factor, quite often renters don't know what they should be asking for. In my area, close to a university and the city centre, rents vary wildly from €750 to €1250 for a four bedroom house.

One family I know asked for a reduction from the landlord, and were told they'd get €100 off for December, as it was Christmas and all. They promptly moved across the estate and got a rent reduction of €200 a month. This indicates to me that a lot of the price inertia is just plain pig headedness from landlords. Which is what happens when you have a load of amateur investors who believe they are genius entrepreneurs, and are caught on the hop.

Its true that some are labouring under the impression that the "good" times are back, but ultimately as the frozen properties are released and the amount of empties exceeds the demand, rents will stabilise considerably lower than they are today, IMHO. Meanwhile, I'd advocate looking for places on good bus routes rather than central locations, the bargains are easier to get the further out you go.

kevin99 · 01-03-2011 1:07am

If I rented I would not want to be in a complex where people are getting rent allowance.
Ditto I wouldn't like it if some of the housing units recently built were sold as social housing for €150k less than what I paid for.
I don't see rents coming down. If anything they will increase.

Dempo1 · 01-03-2011 1:17am

RedXIV wrote: »

I'd say most are chancing their arms. Just find a places you like and offer reasonable rents for them. I'd be pretty sure landlords will consider decent offers

Yes agreed, agents acting on behalf of landlords tend to advertise higher in the hope of getting the maxium but they are chaning their arms.

Not Dublin but my girlfriend just rented a four bed house in tullamore, private and quite estate €500 pm. As it happened she met one of the former tenants who called for post, they had mutual friends, a year ago the house was being rented for €800 PM. Quite a drop and excellent landlady i have to say!

twowheelsonly · 01-03-2011 1:33am

We (Company) were renting a place down near The Point and when we moved in - at €1100 a month - there were SIX apartments out of 60 actually in use.
When we enquired about a reduction 12 months later it was a flat no "as we have no problem renting them out". There were about 10 in use by then. We made that 9 by moving out to a smaller but perfectly adequate apartment closer to the City Centre at €400 less!! The landlady offered a reduction of €50 when she saw that we were serious and we probably could have pushed her for more but couldn't be bothered.

That apartment is still empty, 12 months later

Poor Craythur · 01-03-2011 5:13am

kevin99 wrote: »

If I rented I would not want to be in a complex where people are getting rent allowance.

Why not? I got seriously ill a few years ago and had to stop working for a while. During this time, I was on RA. Why would you not want someone like me in the same building as you?

kevin99 wrote: »

Ditto I wouldn't like it if some of the housing units recently built were sold as social housing for €150k less than what I paid for.

Whether you like it or not doesn't really matter.

kevin99 wrote: »

I don't see rents coming down. If anything they will increase.

Well, at least it'll keep the riff raff out, eh?

Monty Burnz · 01-03-2011 10:16am

kevin99 wrote: »

I don't see rents coming down. If anything they will increase.

Everyone has less money, taxes are going up, unemployment is high, people are leaving the country in droves, property prices are crashing, and there are hundreds of thousands of empty properties right across the country.

I'm not sure what part of that equation will lead to higher rents...

axer · 01-03-2011 11:58am

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I'm not sure what part of that equation will lead to higher rents...

People are not being forced to sell their houses/repossessions. Until that happens lots of landlords will still be trying to charge as close to their mortgage payment amounts as possible. The real property crash has yet to happen and is inevitable - the sooner it happens the sooner rent prices will drop.

Monty Burnz · 01-03-2011 12:34pm

axer wrote: »

The real property crash has yet to happen and is inevitable

Totally agree with you.

Zamboni · 01-03-2011 12:54pm

axer wrote: »

The real property crash has yet to happen and is inevitable - the sooner it happens the sooner rent prices will drop.

Whilst I completely agree with you in theory, FG and Labour are bound to keep interference in the property market high, with both an extension of the repossession moratorium and increasing Tax Relief for people who bought in the boom on the cards.
I think it's just a case continuing the FF game of how long can you kick a can down the road.

axer · 01-03-2011 1:06pm

Zamboni wrote: »

Whilst I completely agree with you in theory, FG and Labour are bound to keep interference in the property market high, with both an extension of the repossession moratorium and increasing Tax Relief for people who bought in the boom on the cards.
I think it's just a case continuing the FF game of how long can you kick a can down the road.

Exactly, they are helping those that bought overpriced properties and screwing renters as a result.

gerryo777 · 01-03-2011 1:21pm

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Everyone has less money, taxes are going up, unemployment is high, people are leaving the country in droves, property prices are crashing, and there are hundreds of thousands of empty properties right across the country.

I'm not sure what part of that equation will lead to higher rents...

Are you related to George Lee???? Doom & Gloom, Doom & Gloom!!!
Jesus, I can't see this country getting off its arse if this is the attitude that prevails.............

gerryo777 · 01-03-2011 1:29pm

axer wrote: »

People are not being forced to sell their houses/repossessions. Until that happens lots of landlords will still be trying to charge as close to their mortgage payment amounts as possible. The real property crash has yet to happen and is inevitable - the sooner it happens the sooner rent prices will drop.

How low do people on here think property prices will go? Do you think that they will go back to the 70's or 80's prices? Do you think that you will be able to buy in Dublin for 50 or 60k??? COP ON TO YOURSELVES! We're in a recession, but we are not heading back to the dark ages!

antiskeptic · 01-03-2011 1:52pm

gerryo777 wrote: »

How low do people on here think property prices will go? Do you think that they will go back to the 70's or 80's prices? Do you think that you will be able to buy in Dublin for 50 or 60k??? COP ON TO YOURSELVES! We're in a recession, but we are not heading back to the dark ages!

Morgan Kelly (of Morgan Kelly fame) seems to think that the same will happen to this bubble as happens to bubbles everywhere else, to whit: house prices will drop to the point they would have been at were there no super-inflationary bubble. That would put the floor somewhere around 1999 prices + 5% per annum inflation since then.

In our case however, there's the problem of a "banjaxed" economy meaning the floor need not be at that point. My house cost 150k euros in 1999. It cost half that in 1997 and half that again in 1995. Which is boomtime inflation territory - which can also be rowed back on.

1995 wasn't the dark ages by any means. I was working in Holland at the time and the relatively huge wages being paid here (I used to get Fridays edition of The Irish Times sent to me each week and couldn't believe the job pages) were part of the reason I came home.

Unfortunately, I wasn't also getting Thursdays The Irish Times to see what had happened to house prices in my absence

Monty Burnz · 01-03-2011 1:54pm

gerryo777 wrote: »

Are you related to George Lee???? Doom & Gloom, Doom & Gloom!!!
Jesus, I can't see this country getting off its arse if this is the attitude that prevails.............

Are Irish people still really sticking their fingers in their ears rather than facing up to reality? You would think the bubble would have taught people a lesson, but apparently not.

Monty Burnz · 01-03-2011 1:56pm

antiskeptic wrote: »

Morgan Kelly (of Morgan Kelly fame) seems to think that the same will happen to this bubble as happens to bubbles everywhere else, to whit: house prices will drop to the point they would have been at were there no super-inflationary bubble. That would put the floor somewhere around 1999 prices + 5% per annum inflation since then.

The last prediction from Kelly that I can recall was an 80% fall from peak prices. I'd realistically expect closer to 70% personally, but it's very hard to say. If we default and the banks go bust, all bets are off. If we don't default, prices will be falling for the next 5 years at least.

CiaranC · 01-03-2011 2:04pm

gerryo777 wrote: »

How low do people on here think property prices will go? Do you think that they will go back to the 70's or 80's prices? Do you think that you will be able to buy in Dublin for 50 or 60k??? COP ON TO YOURSELVES! We're in a recession, but we are not heading back to the dark ages!

There will be housing in Ireland with a negative value, ala Detroit, Michigan.

Theres another side to the rental prices debate here. There was a chap on here on another thread living in a 1 bed apartment on his own paying 1000 euro a month in rent. Twelve grand a year in rent alone. He was convinced that this was normal. He was also complaining that Ireland was horrendously expensive to live in and that prices had not come down since the recession. He actually had a right go when I suggested that this might be because he was starting off down twelve grand when he didnt have to be.

Although its not exactly scientific, the average being paid in rent a year per person seems to be about 3600 a year according to the poll on this forum.

How many of these guys are out there, and how much are they skewing the market? I suspect he is not alone. Im in a nice 1 bed atm, there are some around the corner renting for 40% more than I am paying and they are not coming down in price as far as I can see.

antiskeptic · 01-03-2011 2:06pm

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Are Irish people still really sticking their fingers in their ears rather than facing up to reality? You would think the bubble would have taught people a lesson, but apparently not.

I'm reminded of the saying that goes something like:

It's hard to get a man to believe something when his livelihood depends upon him not believing it.

You can't help but be sympathetic though. This isn't an over-indulgent holiday or a flash car fallen for. This concerns the most significant asset anyone could ever purchase and folk have been left utterly high and dry. All because they got caught up in a vested-interest fuelled panic-buying.

I was subject to that exact same influence myself - the only difference being it's occurance in 1999 in my case. Before the then-insane house price inflation went stratospheric.

gerryo777 · 01-03-2011 2:31pm

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Are Irish people still really sticking their fingers in their ears rather than facing up to reality? You would think the bubble would have taught people a lesson, but apparently not.

We're f***ed so, may as well hand it back to the brits!! Sure we're never going to get out of this mess, oh the doom, the doom!!!!

CiaranC · 01-03-2011 2:33pm

gerryo777 wrote: »

We're f***ed so, may as well hand it back to the brits!! Sure we're never going to get out of this mess, oh the doom, the doom!!!!

You are saying that sarcastically like it is not true. We are indeed "****ed", as you so eloquently put it.

Monty Burnz · 01-03-2011 2:38pm

gerryo777 wrote: »

We're f***ed so, may as well hand it back to the brits!! Sure we're never going to get out of this mess, oh the doom, the doom!!!!

I bet you were saying the same thing in 2006 - how has that worked out for you?

Incidentally, you appear to have no argument to back up your apparent notion that things are actually fine, or at least if you do you haven't chosen to share it. I can't wait to hear it.

gerryo777 · 01-03-2011 3:03pm

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I bet you were saying the same thing in 2006 - how has that worked out for you?

Incidentally, you appear to have no argument to back up your apparent notion that things are actually fine, or at least if you do you haven't chosen to share it. I can't wait to hear it.

Worked out ok, still have a job (not a civil servant) in the real world. Still paying my bills, still alive so yea, working out ok.
I never said things were actually fine, what I'm trying to put across is that as a people we need to change our attitude or we'll never get out of this mess. Anyway this is heading off topic..............

reprazant · 01-03-2011 3:05pm

So maybe we should all think positive thoughts and maybe the ECB won't raise the interest rates?

Monty Burnz · 01-03-2011 3:09pm

gerryo777 wrote: »

I never said things were actually fine, what I'm trying to put across is that as a people we need to change our attitude or we'll never get out of this mess. Anyway this is heading off topic..............

Fair enough, but we have to change our attitude to a realistic one, rather than an emotion-driven one. At present, realistically, we are goosed. This view is based on fact, as I argued above. As soon as the facts change, I will change my view.

hinault · 01-03-2011 3:13pm

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Don't forget that rent allowance distorts the market by putting an artificially high floor on rents. Thus, any kind of kip of bedsit at all will cost 400 euros, whereas in (wealthy, non-IMF-run) Berlin, 400 will get you a nice 2 bed apartment.

The state pays for half of all rented accommodation in this country - if we saw the rent allowance slashed, then landlords could not rely on getting a bare minimum of 400 plus for any dump, and rents would fall for everyone (including those on rent allowance of course). We'd be saving the state a fortune and allowing private renters to rent at lower prices (giving them more spending money to pour back into the economy). The downside would be that struggling BTL owners might go bust - but I don't see why it's fair to distort the market and screw everyone else for the benefit of landlords.

I agree with you 100%.

The Sunday Times Business section stated two weeks ago that the banks are now saying that the loan to let mortgages are starting to come under pressure.

The increase in the variable interest rate and the new higher fixed rate mortgages are going to impact existing loan to let market.
Mortgage repayments will increase and landlords might try to increase repayments.
If they don't increase rents, then the landlords will have to finance the difference between the rent collected and the mortgage repayment.

gerryo777 · 01-03-2011 3:42pm

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Fair enough, but we have to change our attitude to a realistic one, rather than an emotion-driven one. At present, realistically, we are goosed. This view is based on fact, as I argued above. As soon as the facts change, I will change my view.

Thats a fair point, but the reality is that the IMF deal will be renegotiated and there will have to be a europe wide answer to the banks problems. We can't/won't be landed with a €10 billion interest bill every year because that will bankrupt Ireland and if Ireland goes down then the whole EU will follow pretty quick after that.

Are Landlords really getting these prices

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