Home heating automation

dec2000 · 13-10-2017 11:04am

Colm R wrote: »

Interested to hear how you get on - waiting until pay day to order!!

Will let you know. Had an issue straight after I ordered as I paid with Paypal and my address on Paypal is not ParcelMotel. Got a note saying they'd have to ship to my Paypal address, so happily let them and no request for P&P costs. Apparently dispatched yesterday and due in 3 days.
Thanks to Deezell I got the process started with Tado on the install instructions. The CTC thermostat wasn't on their list so it's gone for a review - not too worried about that part and looks like it should just be a straight replace anyway.

deezell · 13-10-2017 11:57am

dec2000 wrote: »

Will let you know. Had an issue straight after I ordered as I paid with Paypal and my address on Paypal is not ParcelMotel. Got a note saying they'd have to ship to my Paypal address, so happily let them and no request for P&P costs. Apparently dispatched yesterday and due in 3 days.
Thanks to Deezell I got the process started with Tado on the install instructions. The CTC thermostat wasn't on their list so it's gone for a review - not too worried about that part and looks like it should just be a straight replace anyway.

The only issue with that is that when you are installing and following the progress on the webapp or phoneapp, it may stall and say awaiting installation instructions. My install was like this because they didn't know anything about my Systemzone controller or firebird boiler. I had everything installed but the app was awaiting this stage. I contacted them and said it was a straight 2 wire thermostat replace/install, and I had done it using the generic instructions. They progressed my install to complete . You could do worse than send them a message with the picture of the stat and tell them its a straight 2 wire on off job. that way they will send you the generic instructions and you app will be good to go. Theyr'e a tad(o) OCD about getting it spot on I think, plus they like to buid a database of every conceivable stat that might be replaced. Yours for example says L and N instead of the current standard of COM and NO/NC, so instructions to connect to the latter might confuse someone with your stat. Once they've issued you with install instructions, the install goes without a hitch.
I love that trick with Paypal, effectively bypasses the need for a UK postcode, and the PM charge. I wonder will this work with Currys, or B&Q?

JaCrispy · 13-10-2017 12:22pm

deezell wrote: »

The EPH smart system, known as EMBER, is available from Heatmerchants for €295 for 3 zones. €246 for 2. I'm not that impressed by the look of the stats tbh, and you will need to pretty much remove your old 3 zone timer and wire in the Ember in its place. Moving the timing function to a smart stat makes for a simple install, 2 wires, and just switch your old zone timer to Permanently on. On the other hand it's good to get rid of ageing devices from the chain, so the EMBER does that.

Looks good but why would I pay €295 for a 3 zone timer and not pay less than a tenner for the sonoff? Do they not essentially do the same thing?
Not trying to be smart but just wondering if I'm missing something

https://www.itead.cc/sonoff-wifi-wireless-switch.html

dec2000 · 13-10-2017 1:43pm

deezell wrote: »

dec2000 wrote: »

Will let you know. Had an issue straight after I ordered as I paid with Paypal and my address on Paypal is not ParcelMotel. Got a note saying they'd have to ship to my Paypal address, so happily let them and no request for P&P costs. Apparently dispatched yesterday and due in 3 days.
Thanks to Deezell I got the process started with Tado on the install instructions. The CTC thermostat wasn't on their list so it's gone for a review - not too worried about that part and looks like it should just be a straight replace anyway.

The only issue with that is that when you are installing and following the progress on the webapp or phoneapp, it may stall and say awaiting installation instructions. My install was like this because they didn't know anything about my Systemzone controller or firebird boiler. I had everything installed but the app was awaiting this stage. I contacted them and said it was a straight 2 wire thermostat replace/install, and I had done it using the generic instructions. They progressed my install to complete . You could do worse than send them a message with the picture of the stat and tell them its a straight 2 wire on off job. that way they will send you the generic instructions and you app will be good to go. Theyr'e a tad(o) OCD about getting it spot on I think, plus they like to buid a database of every conceivable stat that might be replaced. Yours for example says L and N instead of the current standard of COM and NO/NC, so instructions to connect to the latter might confuse someone with your stat. Once they've issued you with install instructions, the install goes without a hitch.
I love that trick with Paypal, effectively bypasses the need for a UK postcode, and the PM charge. I wonder will this work with Currys, or B&Q?

Yup, good point - I mentioned it in my description but will send them a pic now as they emailed me a generic response and advised I reply to it with any additional info.
I have a Firebird boiler too - they have updated their records as they have a large number of them covered now.

deezell · 13-10-2017 5:48pm

JaCrispy wrote: »

Looks good but why would I pay €295 for a 3 zone timer and not pay less than a tenner for the sonoff? Do they not essentially do the same thing?
Not trying to be smart but just wondering if I'm missing something

https://www.itead.cc/sonoff-wifi-wireless-switch.html

Why would you indeed. I wasn't recommending it, just posting information on it. The poster who had it installed said as much, it's not going to light up the smart heating world. I can close a set of contacts remotely on my cctv camera, I could use that to turn on and off my boiler for free, but that's not what's at stake. Perhaps some current users of EPH 3 zone controllers would be happy with an upgrade kit thats plug and play into their existing backplates, a diy job, no €300 plumbers bill. Maybe the smart features are not sophisticated but it's a big step up for the user, and the three zone control is already familiar. Nest and tado and the others require a step up in hardware to cover two zones and HW, Nest being a rather expensive option as you need two of the expensive devices. What you get though is amazing versatility of programming, specific times on specific days at specific temperatures, responding automatically if all registered occupants are away, with multiple choice response on a time slot by time slot basis, plus predictive firing of the boiler based on the weather and temperature outside (garnered from accuweather or the likes). You'd be a long time programming that onto a set of switches. My choice is Tado. The V2 is a bargain at the moment, extra zone stat is not a ripoff and individual room control is available using tado TRVs.

bk · 13-10-2017 6:01pm

deezell wrote: »

Nest and tado and the others require a step up in hardware to cover two zones and HW, Nest being a rather expensive option as you need two of the expensive devices.

Just to point out, that Nest have a new cheaper Thermostat, which hasn't been launched in the UK yet, but based on US pricing, it should be pretty reasonable and two of them would actually be a bit cheaper then two Tado's + the hw extension kit!

And BTW two standard Nests are currently only £20 more expensive then the above Tado setup.

Of course Tado has the advantage of also supporting TVR's. I think Nest really needs to do those next too, to complete their lineup. Hive too needs to get TVR's and Netatmo needs to get hw support.

a148pro · 14-10-2017 1:10pm

matrim wrote: »

*The couple of other plumbers I talked to didn't know anything about any WiFi controlled heating.

I'm in same boat, doing full refurb including full rewire and plumb and I may as well be talking to the wall asking about smart stuff. It reminds me of the boom. They don't really care and lads you ring don't bother ringing back.

Luckily enough we have threads like these to help us out!

i'll have three heating zones and separate hot water.

I'd like to be able to turn heat and water on and off remotely.

I'm not too committed to the intelligent thermostat taking over. I envisage having the other two zones on only rarely and at night so probably best to control them myself. The main zone will be well insulated and will also have a stove so can probably just programme it to come on in morning and activate it remotely or on site as required.

I absolutely refuse to pay subscription charges - can you get hive without subscription as other people speak well of it?

My mate recommended a heat miser. Seems it would allow me to just use my traditional controller remotely. This would give me all the functionality as regards heat and water I would need, but none of the sexy thermostats. But maybe this is what I want.

Netamo also looks pretty good. Will I need separate thermostats if I wanted to control the other zones or hot water though? Can't seem to find that out from minimalist website.

I don't envisage having wireless thermostats on rads as they'll be old style rads and don't like the idea of digital displays on them.

One thing I am concerned about is I envisage getting either solar pv or solar thermal in. It would be helpful therefore to be able to know the temperature of the water tank then - or at least to have the water heating turn off if activated remotely and the tank was already hot enough. Would that functionality exist on any of the systems? I mean if I have the cylinder set to turn off at a particular temperature would that override any web control?

Finally I like the idea of being able to turn electrical things on and off remotely also, specifically the lights if we were away (though I suspect I'd prefer to also disable the wifi in this instance so maybe timers would be better). But in general am I right in thinking Nest and hive would have some remote electrical functionality but the others not?

Thanks and apologies for all the questions just trying to make the best choice

deezell · 14-10-2017 1:25pm

bk wrote: »

....And BTW two standard Nests are currently only £20 more expensive then the above Tado setup.....Of course Tado has the advantage of also supporting TVR's.....

You can pick up Nests from Switchcraft.ie in Blackrock for €237, so 2 for €474, about the same as Tado v3 with an extra stat and extension box. As each Nest can control a thermostat zone and a timer HW zone, you could use the spare HW zone with a standard stat to have 3 heating zones and HW, 2 of the heating zones with full smart temperature control.

wexfordman2 · 14-10-2017 2:47pm

a148pro wrote: »

I'm in same boat, doing full refurb including full rewire and plumb and I may as well be talking to the wall asking about smart stuff. It reminds me of the boom. They don't really care and lads you ring don't bother ringing back.

Luckily enough we have threads like these to help us out!

i'll have three heating zones and separate hot water.

I'd like to be able to turn heat and water on and off remotely.

I'm not too committed to the intelligent thermostat taking over. I envisage having the other two zones on only rarely and at night so probably best to control them myself. The main zone will be well insulated and will also have a stove so can probably just programme it to come on in morning and activate it remotely or on site as required.

I absolutely refuse to pay subscription charges - can you get hive without subscription as other people speak well of it?

My mate recommended a heat miser. Seems it would allow me to just use my traditional controller remotely. This would give me all the functionality as regards heat and water I would need, but none of the sexy thermostats. But maybe this is what I want.

Netamo also looks pretty good. Will I need separate thermostats if I wanted to control the other zones or hot water though? Can't seem to find that out from minimalist website.

I don't envisage having wireless thermostats on rads as they'll be old style rads and don't like the idea of digital displays on them.

One thing I am concerned about is I envisage getting either solar pv or solar thermal in. It would be helpful therefore to be able to know the temperature of the water tank then - or at least to have the water heating turn off if activated remotely and the tank was already hot enough. Would that functionality exist on any of the systems? I mean if I have the cylinder set to turn off at a particular temperature would that override any web control?

Finally I like the idea of being able to turn electrical things on and off remotely also, specifically the lights if we were away (though I suspect I'd prefer to also disable the wifi in this instance so maybe timers would be better). But in general am I right in thinking Nest and hive would have some remote electrical functionality but the others not?

Thanks and apologies for all the questions just trying to make the best choice

Wit regards your water heating, and knowing the temp sonyour not heating the water when the tank is hot anyway, a standard tank sensor in line with your smart heating will prevent that from happening, thats his my system works anyway (nest).

You won't want to turn off your WiFi, as a lot of your smart appliances will work over WiFi, pretty much any of the smart heating systems require WiFi, so turn that off and you lose functionality.

Remote control of lighting and aockets is separate to your heating and lots of options including iwred and wireless solutions.

deezell · 14-10-2017 3:01pm

H

a148pro wrote: »

I'm in same boat, doing full refurb including full rewire and plumb and I may as well be talking to the wall asking about smart stuff. ......Thanks and apologies for all the questions just trying to make the best choice

A lot if info there. It might help to take Occams Razor to it, and define your requirements. You require s full refurb of your plumbing. New boiler? Gas or Oil. Combi or hot water cylinder. Lets assume traditional oil boiler with a HW cylinder. There's also a stove. Is that a boiler stove. Lets assume not. You want 3 heating zones and a circuit to the hot water cylinder. You'll need 4 motorised valves. So far this can all be managed by any plumber. How will the zones be turned on. Generally, by a combination of a timer and thermostat per zone. How many zones would you like smart or remote control on. Just the main area? Then a single smart stat will do timing and temperature in this zone. An inexpensive 2 zone+HW controller and room stats/ cylinder stat will take care of the other 3. A Nest or Tado starter kit will do 1 heating zone and the HW, you will need a 2 zone timer and standard stats for the other areas, plus a cylinder stat wired into the nest/ tado/other control box. 2 Nests will in fact cover everything, full smart remote timing/temperature on 2 zones, remote timing of HW and remote timing only of the 3rd Zone which would have a standard stat. Tado will do this also with the tado starter kit, extension box and two additional stats. 3 smart zones and remote timed HW. In all these installs the HW temperature is controlled by a mechanical stat. Tado or Nest don't have a Smart cylinder stat, but they can read combi boilers which supply HW on demand if the boiler has digital connections to send and receive data such as HW temperature.
Any zone that is not controlled by a smart stat or it's interface box can be controlled at the simplest by a basic 2 wire stat wired to the zone motorised valve, giving simple temperature controlled on off heating for that zone. The stat acts like a switch.

With regard to the solar question , again assume this is just for HW. This will require a double coil cylinder. The solar will pre heat the water in advance of the boiler, reducing oil usage. In summer the solar will probably get the cylinder sufficiently hot such that the cylinder stat tempersture is satisfied and the boiler will not fire when it's timer on. Solar systems require additional stats and devices to prevent overheating, electric valves to drain excess hot water, mixing valve to prevent scalding etc. This is independent of any smart remote system, which will just act as a timer calling for HW, which will activate the boiler and HW zone valve only if the cylinder stat is closed and the HW is below temperature.
It's up to you now to chose the smart part of the system, but the bulk of the install is well within the ability of any plumber.

Stoner · 14-10-2017 3:56pm

bk wrote:

To be honest, they don't need to. They aren't any different to any standard non smart controller, not on the side that gets wired into the boiler. Should be an easy job for any electrician.

Except that plumbers wire many of them

deezell · 14-10-2017 4:20pm

Stoner wrote: »

Except that plumbers wire many of them

This is acceptable as many systems are wired using a colour coded push fit central wiring box, such as the the systemlex or the NRG Awareness box. You can wire the box with a 3 pin plug, then all the connections for the zone valves or pumps, the zone stats, the boiler mains in and the boiler SL or call for heat wire, are all in the box clearly marked. Adding a smart interface to an existing box like this is just a case of connecting the stat COM and NO wires from the box to either the new smart stat (such as tado) or to it's control/ extension box ( nest and tado extension kit). In a new install you can wire stats valves and pumps directly to the smart system interface, but wiring boxes like these makes it a doddle.

a148pro · 14-10-2017 9:05pm

deezell wrote: »

H
A lot if info there. It might help to take Occams Razor to it, and define your requirements.

Sorry, I'd been reading threads all morning on here and then more or less puked it all out on the page.

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

GFCH, condensing boiler (to allow for solar in due course). Stove is dry. No issue with the zones being put in by the plumber. I'm just surprised there isn't a controller which is wifi enabled at this stage, as in, the standard thing on the wall, which can do anything with the system, why that isn't directly wifi enabled? It seems you have to add smart thermostats around the house instead. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the role of the controller on the wall. In my house at present I have a controller but no thermostat, so I can turn on the water and heat from the wall. I had assumed if I had other zones I could do this from the same controller and therefore if that controller was wifi enabled I could just to it all, or any of it, from there, without need for multiple smart thermostats.

Fundamentally these seems so complicated I think I'm going to have to get professional advice in anyway, I'm just worried that I'll miss something in the wiring or plumbing now that might create problems. Anything I need to ask for now to ensure its future proofed?

Thanks again

a148pro · 14-10-2017 9:07pm

wexfordman2 wrote: »

You won't want to turn off your WiFi, as a lot of your smart appliances will work over WiFi, pretty much any of the smart heating systems require WiFi, so turn that off and you lose functionality.

Remote control of lighting and aockets is separate to your heating and lots of options including iwred and wireless solutions.

I mean if I went away for a while I'd probably turn off wifi to save electricity. Then I wouldn't be able to turn the stuff on in advance en route home! I wonder could you programme in advance to turn back on at a given time when you're due back, and whether that would still happen if wi fi was turned off. I assume it would as otherwise heat wouldn't come on in the morning if wifi went down over night.

wexfordman2 · 14-10-2017 11:05pm

a148pro wrote: »

I mean if I went away for a while I'd probably turn off wifi to save electricity. Then I wouldn't be able to turn the stuff on in advance en route home! I wonder could you programme in advance to turn back on at a given time when you're due back, and whether that would still happen if wi fi was turned off. I assume it would as otherwise heat wouldn't come on in the morning if wifi went down over night.

Well, what you are saying there is just to set your thermostat to a timed schedule which is easy enough, but a bit pointless.

If your aim is to be greener, then turning of WiFi, which is what allows your heating to be controlled remotely, seems counter productive. The power your WiFi is transmitting is infinitesimal compared to the saving you would make by even just once being able to change your heating schedule just once when your away and delayed or coming home early etc

With the nest, if you lose WiFi, then you can still control it form inside the house, but not outside. You would also lose some functionality for example the ability if the thermostat to adjust heating based on outside temperature etc

deezell · 15-10-2017 12:09am

a148pro wrote: »

Sorry, I'd been reading threads all morning on here and then more or less puked it all out on the page.

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

GFCH, condensing boiler (to allow for solar in due course).....Maybe I'm misunderstanding the role of the controller on the wall. In my house at present I have a controller but no thermostat,

This is about as basic as a system can get. You have to guess the number of " notches" on the mechanical or digital timer to set on in order to have a reasonable level of heat. I put up with this for way too long, constantly jumping up to add an extra bit, too warm on mild nights, never a consistent temperature. Just the addition of a thermostat changes everything, and the addition of a stat which can have programmed temperatures at different times is a game changer. This heatmiser here might be all you need. https://www.heatmisershop.co.uk/heatmiser-slimline-n-12v-programmable-thermostat/?utm_medium=googleshopping&utm_source=bc&gclid=CjwKCAjw64bPBRApEiwAJhG-fhxgS7aLPMVYnQ2XByytAaeCFcsDFAABn_FhF3W0Ib3aa3-Tj4hjxxoCVfsQAvD_BwE
The controller is effectively redundant if the stat can not only regulate the temperature but also alter the temperature at different times. Most controllers are just timers. 1 or multiple zones, they just turn the heat on to that area regardless of need. Adding a stat to each controller zone will save a lot of energy and create a steady temperature while the controller in on for that zone. The next step up is to regulate the temperatures outside the peak periods instead of just a crude cut off, by introducing time and temperature programming. The final enhancements to this are remote access, predictive operation and automatic absence detection, which is where smart stats come in. Current systems are a bit hybrid at the moment, with slowly evolving installation schemes based on adding to rather than replacing well established existing wiring schemes. Early oil boilers didn't even have a timer, you just turned them on like switching on a gas stove. Once you were warm, turn it off, otherwise it just heated the water constantly to the limit of its in built stat, which was your only control of the heat to your radiators. Zoned controllers with thermostats on the walls and on the hot water cylinder have barely become the norm, and yet here we are in the smart age. This is probably why so much of the smart product available builds on existing hardware rather than replacing it. A zone timer is redundant in a new smart install, but it's not immediately obvious to a plumber how to wire up the controls to the valves, pumps, stats and boiler in the absence of the familiar timer box, so he might be more comfortable with this method of installation, leaving it to others to upgrade his work by the addition of smart devices. The choice of brand of smart heating control will determine what extra wiring and junction boxes you will need for a tidy install. A good starting point is the use of a well labelled wiring centre, the best 100 odd euros you will ever spend. Here's the NRG Lex below.

johnnyrotten · 15-10-2017 1:17am

deezell wrote: »

You can pick up Nests from Switchcraft.ie in Blackrock for €237, so 2 for €474, about the same as Tado v3 with an extra stat and extension box. As each Nest can control a thermostat zone and a timer HW zone, you could use the spare HW zone with a standard stat to have 3 heating zones and HW, 2 of the heating zones with full smart temperature control.

£199 (€223) on screwfix.com (This includes free stand worth £30)plus €3.50 parcel motel charge.
https://www.screwfix.com/p/nest-smart-thermostat-hot-water-control/7761k

a148pro · 15-10-2017 8:28am

deezell wrote: »

This is about as basic as a system can get. You have to guess the number of " notches" on the mechanical or digital timer to set on in order to have a reasonable level of heat. I put up with this for way too long, constantly jumping up to add an extra bit, too warm on mild nights, never a consistent temperature. Just the addition of a thermostat changes everything, and the addition of a stat which can have programmed temperatures at different times is a game changer. This heatmiser here might be all you need. https://www.heatmisershop.co.uk/heatmiser-slimline-n-12v-programmable-thermostat/?utm_medium=googleshopping&utm_source=bc&gclid=CjwKCAjw64bPBRApEiwAJhG-fhxgS7aLPMVYnQ2XByytAaeCFcsDFAABn_FhF3W0Ib3aa3-Tj4hjxxoCVfsQAvD_BwE
The controller is effectively redundant if the stat can not only regulate the temperature but also alter the temperature at different times. Most controllers are just timers. 1 or multiple zones, they just turn the heat on to that area regardless of need. Adding a stat to each controller zone will save a lot of energy and create a steady temperature while the controller in on for that zone. The next step up is to regulate the temperatures outside the peak periods instead of just a crude cut off, by introducing time and temperature programming. The final enhancements to this are remote access, predictive operation and automatic absence detection, which is where smart stats come in. Current systems are a bit hybrid at the moment, with slowly evolving installation schemes based on adding to rather than replacing well established existing wiring schemes. Early oil boilers didn't even have a timer, you just turned them on like switching on a gas stove. Once you were warm, turn it off, otherwise it just heated the water constantly to the limit of its in built stat, which was your only control of the heat to your radiators. Zoned controllers with thermostats on the walls and on the hot water cylinder have barely become the norm, and yet here we are in the smart age. This is probably why so much of the smart product available builds on existing hardware rather than replacing it. A zone timer is redundant in a new smart install, but it's not immediately obvious to a plumber how to wire up the controls to the valves, pumps, stats and boiler in the absence of the familiar timer box, so he might be more comfortable with this method of installation, leaving it to others to upgrade his work by the addition of smart devices. The choice of brand of smart heating control will determine what extra wiring and junction boxes you will need for a tidy install. A good starting point is the use of a well labelled wiring centre, the best 100 odd euros you will ever spend. Here's the NRG Lex below.

Thanks again for that very detailed response deezell - it makes sense now. I was thinking why doesn't the one box do everything and it seems it is just a retrofitting market.

Just on that heatmiser you linked - it doesn't appear to be wifi enabled so not remote controllable? They have other similar products which are though I think. I spoke with one electrician over the phone who was a registered installer of one the big name products who was very helpful so i'll just look him up when job done - he actually recommended against the big name product in question as he thought it didn't work well in multi zone environment - that's the kind of honesty you need when getting advice on something like this.

Franky bizarre that the lads who are doing the job from scratch for me can't do it, in this day and age, young sparks too and they've no suggestions to even make.

Again anything I need to put in now to future proof install? My Builder mate said just to ensure the thermostats have two lines coming into them or something?

deezell · 15-10-2017 11:17am

Just on that heatmiser you linked - it doesn't appear to be wifi enabled so not remote controllable? They have other similar products which are though I think. .....
Again anything I need to put in now to future proof install? My Builder mate said just to ensure the thermostats have two lines coming into them or something?

That heatmiser fulfils the main criteria of programmed control without Wi-Fi. The orders ofcontrol are;

On off.
Timed.
Timed with thermostat
Timed with variable temperature stat ( the heatmiser)
Above with Zones
Above with remote control ( internet)
Above with smart features, home/ away detection, modulated firing, external weather compensation etc.

Different smart products can satisfy some or all of these with the right plumbing installation. The ultimate system is individual room control with full smart features. This is actually easily achieved using smart TRVs on all your radiators ( bar one for safety reasons). Honeywell and Tado are the leaders here. If you have an old single zone installation, no need to year up floors to create zones. A 10€ manual TRV valve head on each rad followed by smart actuators in place of the manual ones. Tado TRVs can fire the boiler via the main stat.
Your final comment 're the builder, it would be great to have a pair of wires from the boiler/ zone station to each stat. Some stats will work wirelessly back to a wiring box also. Nest can be powered via these wires, meaning no phone power adapter. It's up to you to get the conduit and cable put in. Put in an extra core or two. You might choose a stat which requires mains power to operate it's processor.

deezell · 16-10-2017 12:29pm

Just popped one of two new Tado TRVS on to a radiator valve, it registered and worked straight away, opening and closing the valve as I adjusted the temperature above/below the room temperature. Unlike other smart TRVs, it also calls the boiler for heat via the contacts of the main Tado stat. This is ideal if you have a room that cools quicker than the main stat location, and it also allows you to turn off that room separately as a zone.
Btw, when I contacted tado to confirm if the TRVs could in fact fire the boiler via the main stat contacts, I got my confirmation and a discount code of 10%, meaning I ordered the £59 TRVs for only £53.10 each on the UK site. Happy days.

ctlsleh · 16-10-2017 10:36pm

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Wit regards your water heating, and knowing the temp sonyour not heating the water when the tank is hot anyway, a standard tank sensor in line with your smart heating will prevent that from happening, thats his my system works anyway (nest).

You won't want to turn off your WiFi, as a lot of your smart appliances will work over WiFi, pretty much any of the smart heating systems require WiFi, so turn that off and you lose functionality.

Remote control of lighting and aockets is separate to your heating and lots of options including iwred and wireless solutions.

Wexfordman, Can I ask a question re: your nest set-up.....? .........I also have a similar nest setup where I have a danfoss remote thermostat on my cylinder with a RF receiver at my boiler which I have in-line with my nest call for heat to my boiler (own zone valve)However I think I’m burning out the relay on the danfoss receiver as it’s always on, ie, if I dont have my nest hot water turned on and my cylinder is below my temp set point, then the cylinder thermostat is always calling for heat and keeping the relay in line with the nest turned on...... even though the nest isn’t calling for heat as I don’t use the hot water that much.

Is there a better way to do this or a better solution than danfoss?

matrim · 17-10-2017 10:00am

Has anyone used any timed or remote controlled TRVs? I'm thinking of zwave but something else might work too.

The main use case would be to work of a timed setup, e.g. adjust TRV based on what day / time of day it is. But if I could report the temperature to home-assistant too that would be a nice extra

I've seen these mentioned on other sites but looking for other (potentially cheaper) options too.

deezell · 17-10-2017 12:36pm

matrim wrote: »

Has anyone used any timed or remote controlled TRVs? I'm thinking of zwave but something else might work too.

The main use case would be to work of a timed setup, e.g. adjust TRV based on what day / time of day it is. But if I could report the temperature to home-assistant too that would be a nice extra

I've seen these mentioned on other sites but looking for other (potentially cheaper) options too.

I'd expect any smart TRVs to report the temperature back to their own app. Whether they integrate fully with Amazon Alexa/ Google Home-assistant depends on the brand and level of intergration. With the Tado TRvs, on another blog it states that you can control the temperature but not read back the current temperature with Alexa, but no reports what you can read with Google Home/Assistant or Apple Home Kit. You'll have to search a bit further for detail. Of more importance is the integration to your current system. Smart TRVs can all be programmed to open and close according to a timer/temperature program, usually on an app, but this is only of use if the boiler is also running at the same time. Tado can operate the boiler if you have the Tado main stat or the Tado Extension box wired in to switch the boiler. You'll need to ensure that any brand you buy can talk to the controller that fires the boiler. If you have a Nest for example, it won't in itself have any awareness of other brand TRVs. It could however be controlled by a third party app or controller software which can see both the Nest and the TRVs. Apple homekit and Google Home can both be used to turn 0n the boiler via , say, a Nest controller, and then turn on the brand of TRVs you have installed if they are compatible. How tidy the interface will be I'm not sure. If your'e into IFTTT software i'ts possible. I can fully time and temperature control my two Tado TRVs, and when they open for heat they seamlessly call the boiler which is physically switched on by the Main Tado room Thermostat. I'm sure the Zwave have some kind of interface that can do this also.

deezell · 17-10-2017 1:02pm

Further to this a new post on this forum,
https://www.avforums.com/threads/tado-smart-thermostat.2077764/page-6#post-25517335

"I’ve got tado with google home and it works fine. It will tell me the inside temp and what the thermostat is set to. Will also tell me the hudmidity as well."
Tado TRVs are treated the same as thermostats, you assign a stat or a trv to a zone and name it, say " Kitchen"

BoardsMember · 17-10-2017 4:57pm

deezell wrote: »

I'd expect any smart TRVs to report the temperature back to their own app. Whether they integrate fully with Amazon Alexa/ Google Home-assistant depends on the brand and level of intergration. With the Tado TRvs, on another blog it states that you can control the temperature but not read back the current temperature with Alexa, but no reports what you can read with Google Home/Assistant or Apple Home Kit. You'll have to search a bit further for detail. Of more importance is the integration to your current system. Smart TRVs can all be programmed to open and close according to a timer/temperature program, usually on an app, but this is only of use if the boiler is also running at the same time. Tado can operate the boiler if you have the Tado main stat or the Tado Extension box wired in to switch the boiler. You'll need to ensure that any brand you buy can talk to the controller that fires the boiler. If you have a Nest for example, it won't in itself have any awareness of other brand TRVs. It could however be controlled by a third party app or controller software which can see both the Nest and the TRVs. Apple homekit and Google Home can both be used to turn 0n the boiler via , say, a Nest controller, and then turn on the brand of TRVs you have installed if they are compatible. How tidy the interface will be I'm not sure. If your'e into IFTTT software i'ts possible. I can fully time and temperature control my two Tado TRVs, and when they open for heat they seamlessly call the boiler which is physically switched on by the Main Tado room Thermostat. I'm sure the Zwave have some kind of interface that can do this also.

Quick question - does this mean that the Tado main stat or the Tado Extension box replaces the timer you have on your current heating controls?

I have a timer that can be on/off twice a day for heating and hot water. Rads is all on one circuit, water on another. Gas boiler.

Wondering how I would use a Tado in that situation. Would like to be able to control rads individually, not turn on some in the morning/evening at all, have others on but stat controlled at other times. I know I need the boiler running in order to pull heat, and from your comment above it looks like Tado main stat or the Tado Extension box can call the boiler, just wondering how that works with what I have.

Thanks!

bk · 17-10-2017 6:00pm

BoardsMember The Tado extension would replace the timer and allow you to call for heat or hot water separately.

The Tado "stat" would replace your existing stat or if you prefer you can have it wireless.

So lets say you have Tado TRV's in each room and you have the temp on all of them set to 20c and it is currently 21c in all rooms. Then the TRV's will be closed in all rooms, but the TRV's will also tell the Tado stat and it will instruct the boiler to switch off via the Tado extension.

Now lets say the temp in one room drops to 19c, the following will happen:
- The Tado TRV in that room will open
- The Tado TRV in that room will tell the Tado Stat that it needs heat.
- The Tado stat will instruct the boiler to switch on generate heat via the Tado Extension.

Basically it looks like:

Boiler -> Tado Extension (usually next to the boiler, but only needed if you have hot water zone) -> Tado Thermostat (Usually in the hall or living room) -> Multiple optional TRV's in each room.

BoardsMember · 17-10-2017 7:01pm

bk wrote: »

BoardsMember The Tado extension would replace the timer and allow you to call for heat or hot water separately.

The Tado "stat" would replace your existing stat or if you prefer you can have it wireless.

So lets say you have Tado TRV's in each room and you have the temp on all of them set to 20c and it is currently 21c in all rooms. Then the TRV's will be closed in all rooms, but the TRV's will also tell the Tado stat and it will instruct the boiler to switch off via the Tado extension.

Now lets say the temp in one room drops to 19c, the following will happen:
- The Tado TRV in that room will open
- The Tado TRV in that room will tell the Tado Stat that it needs heat.
- The Tado stat will instruct the boiler to switch on generate heat via the Tado Extension.

Basically it looks like:

Boiler -> Tado Extension (usually next to the boiler, but only needed if you have hot water zone) -> Tado Thermostat (Usually in the hall or living room) -> Multiple optional TRV's in each room.

Thanks a mill bk for the detailed response.

Can I ask one other question...you say the Tado extension is only needed if you have hot water zone. Not sure I understand why this would be the case. Surely "something" is needed at the boiler to tell the boiler when something, rad or water, wants it to fire.

ctlsleh · 17-10-2017 7:13pm

what happens to the efficiency of your condenser boiler when you start to shut down rads or even use one zone instead of the 2 or 3 that its been designed to heat on the first place?

deezell · 17-10-2017 7:37pm

BoardsMember wrote: »

Thanks a mill bk for the detailed response.

Can I ask one other question...you say the Tado extension is only needed if you have hot water zone. Not sure I understand why this would be the case. Surely "something" is needed at the boiler to tell the boiler when something, rad or water, wants it to fire.

The Tado stat has a pair of contacts to wire directly the boiler/pump and fire it. If using the tado extension, this box has the same pair of contacts to fire the boiler, plus another pair to turn on a pump or valve to heat the hot water cylinder. The Tado stat then communicates wirelessly with the extension box, so it can be located anywhere. TRVs communicate with the tado stat to fire the boiler If there is no extension box.

bk · 17-10-2017 7:42pm

BoardsMember wrote: »

Thanks a mill bk for the detailed response.

Can I ask one other question...you say the Tado extension is only needed if you have hot water zone. Not sure I understand why this would be the case. Surely "something" is needed at the boiler to tell the boiler when something, rad or water, wants it to fire.

Basically the main Tado Thermostat unit can directly control the boiler, depending on your setup.

Tado, like most of the new Smart Thermostats is a controller/timer/stat all built into one box.

Depending on your setup, you could either just set your current timer to run 24/7 and replace your existing hall stat with the main Tado unit, so it basically takes over the control. Or alternatively you could replace your timer with the main Tado unit next to the boiler.

The latter option might not be great depending on the location of your boiler (e.g. outside), though that wouldn't matter if you used Tado TVR's on every rad, as they then fundamentally take over the temperature reading part and the main unit is only used for control.

Basically the Tado extension is only needed for two optional reasons:
- To control a separate hot water zone
- To allow you to place the main Tado Thermostat in any room you like, rather then in the hall.

In fact the whole hot water thing is mainly just a UK/Irish thing. Most European countries don't have this setup and thus most wouldn't buy the extension. The main unit is a drop in replacement for Thermostats on continental Europe. Frankly our setup is idiotic IMHO, combi boilers are way better.

BTW this is just how Tado is set up. Netatmo, Nest, etc. are slightly different.

Home heating automation

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