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Dunmurry Springs GC closed 12.11.19

13

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 294 ✭✭ Sincere Squeaking Snotty


    Unfortunately members clubs are facing a substantial uphill battle to remain open.
    This trend will continue as has been shown in the UK and Ireland.

    Can't link but: .irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/golf/golf-in-over-the-last-decade-a-changing-landscape-for-better--and-for-worse-869703.html

    Article suggests a 20% decline in paid GUI members in 2018 while a 6% closure in courses. I suspect both numbers will more closely align over time. 9 courses in the UK closed last month alone out of approx 1800. 0.5% of courses may seem like a small number but it's quite worrying imo.


  • Registered Users Posts: 869 ✭✭✭moycullen14


    Ballyneety. It was closed for a year or two before reopening. Members put a lot of work in to get it back in shape.

    So it is possible.

    I'd guess you'd need to have a very large potential membership. Lots of members will vote with their feet if there is an alternative nearby. Hard to blame them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,323 ✭✭✭✭Rikand


    londonred wrote: »
    I thought Ballinamore was the only Golf course in Leitrim?

    I think you're right because Carrick on shannon golf course is actually in county roscommon


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,960 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Ollieboy wrote: »
    200 members put up 5k each and they could own the place and 1k a year subs and get it up and running again, but it needs to happen fast.
    Its not going to be much of a club if they only have 200K a year to run it.

    Thats only 5 salaries at the average industrial wage and not a machine bought or serviced.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,554 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Its not going to be much of a club if they only have 200K a year to run it.

    Thats only 5 salaries at the average industrial wage and not a machine bought or serviced.
    Society golf and green fees would have to be factored in too I'd imagine.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,424 ✭✭✭brick tamland


    I cant imagine all 200 would stump up 5k anyway. Too much choice locally.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,960 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    Society golf and green fees would have to be factored in too I'd imagine.

    If there was enough of that coming in then they probably wouldnt have closed though!


  • Registered Users Posts: 677 ✭✭✭davegilly


    Clubs really need to look at different membership options to encourage younger people to join. The days of the husband disappearing to the golf club for the day while the Mrs minded the kids at home is long gone.

    Flexible Memberships, Lifestyle Memberships whatever you want to call them is a great way of getting younger guys and gals who are time poor as members. If it's priced right then you should get good numbers signing up - going by my own place.

    For someone like myself with two young kids and a wife working, it's impossible to justify full membership anywhere - I can't be disappearing for half a day Saturday with all the kids sports etc to be looked after. However a flexi membership with 10 or 12 weekend competition rounds is perfect for me and lads like me. I know from speaking to friends that they would sign up to something like this no bother, but it's not really available - even though clubs locally are on their last legs? I'm a flexi member currently where I am and entitled to about 18 weekend rounds a year but I've only played 10 this year and it was similar last year! Doesn't bother me as the price wasn't exhorbitant but it was enough to stop most full members moving over to flexi.

    Another membership option that I've not seen anywhere is a summer or 6 month membership. April to September at 2/3 or 3/4 the price of full membership - this would suit younger people who could play a round after work midweek. Get a GUI and play in home club opens in the evenings during the summer.

    I think the problem mainly is that most club committees are populated by oul lads with little to no knowledge of the modern way of life.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 18,559 Mod ✭✭✭✭slave1


    Clubs also need to offer non GUI membership, so no GUI card and you can’t play in any comps, plenty out there with no interest in comps


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,070 ✭✭✭Ollieboy


    slave1 wrote: »
    Clubs also need to offer non GUI membership, so no GUI card and you can’t play in any comps, plenty out there with no interest in comps

    Every club offers this option, you don’t need to take up GUI membership


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,331 ✭✭✭mike12


    I'm not sure there are that many more to close.
    If they have survived the past 10 years unless like Hollystown they are on prime development land there isn't a lot of value returning them to farm land.
    For me this is the first one on the list that I'm sorry to see close always enjoyed playing it.
    Surprised Seapoint is in trouble it always seems busy and any open I have ever played there has been full.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,554 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    Ollieboy wrote: »
    Every club offers this option, you don’t need to take up GUI membership
    It's only around €25 anyway. Hardly a deal breaker. And for that, you get to play in open competitions pretty much anywhere you want at highly discounted rates. Like Enniscrone for €35 instead of a green fee over €100.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,070 ✭✭✭Ollieboy


    davegilly wrote: »
    Clubs really need to look at different membership options to encourage younger people to join. The days of the husband disappearing to the golf club for the day while the Mrs minded the kids at home is long gone.

    Flexible Memberships, Lifestyle Memberships whatever you want to call them is a great way of getting younger guys and gals who are time poor as members. If it's priced right then you should get good numbers signing up - going by my own place.

    For someone like myself with two young kids and a wife working, it's impossible to justify full membership anywhere - I can't be disappearing for half a day Saturday with all the kids sports etc to be looked after. However a flexi membership with 10 or 12 weekend competition rounds is perfect for me and lads like me. I know from speaking to friends that they would sign up to something like this no bother, but it's not really available - even though clubs locally are on their last legs? I'm a flexi member currently where I am and entitled to about 18 weekend rounds a year but I've only played 10 this year and it was similar last year! Doesn't bother me as the price wasn't exhorbitant but it was enough to stop most full members moving over to flexi.

    Another membership option that I've not seen anywhere is a summer or 6 month membership. April to September at 2/3 or 3/4 the price of full membership - this would suit younger people who could play a round after work midweek. Get a GUI and play in home club opens in the evenings during the summer.

    I think the problem mainly is that most club committees are populated by oul lads with little to no knowledge of the modern way of life.

    To be honest, your been selfish here in your comment and what the ideal membership that suits you and don’t worry about the club and it’s future as a business.

    I actually look at the options you mentioned and here is some of the reasons it won’t work and the comment oul ones is very unfair.

    To offer 6 months membership you will nearly need to charge the full rate, we can’t just tell staff they don’t get paid or work during the winter
    Clubs only have so many spots on a Saturday morning at peak time, so these spots will go to loyal members and not the seasonal golfer.
    Clubs need to plan and make sure they have finance available for years, so the membership model is the best model for this business.
    The golf membership model as been around for over 100 years and now it’s broken?
    Your comment as always been a problem for the average working family, hence why golf clubs were usually made up of people in there 40 plus age bracket with money and time.

    The problem clubs have is over supply and we are starting to see a end to it now as members are joining the stronger clubs and the weaker clubs are going to make tough decisions.

    The model of membership you want, might be available in the short term but not in the long term as clubs recover.

    This year we’ve grown by 18% in membership and about 15% in green fees. This is our 4th year of strong growth and we are nearly back to full and looking at entrance fees again. When I started on committee 5 years ago we had 4 people under 30 and we now have a package for that age group and have 150 members under 35.

    But if we adopt the membership style you want, we would need double the number of membership and on good weather Saturday you would be moaning that only regulars get out to play etc, so it’s very hard to make those type of membership work in a club and that’s why we have green fees.

    As for the number of clubs in Ireland, a lot are going to be sold for housing in the next few years and that will solve the problem. There is not enough money in golf to use 150 acres for golf when you can make millions in housing.

    So I would nearly bet in 5 years time, the most common post on this forum will be, I can’t get into a club, or how to join a club, or we need more clubs. Change is coming and it’s coming very fast and fees are increasing for members already. This will mainly be in the areas that have demand for housing.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,070 ✭✭✭Ollieboy


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Its not going to be much of a club if they only have 200K a year to run it.

    Thats only 5 salaries at the average industrial wage and not a machine bought or serviced.

    Totally agree, they have got away with it this long and without paying debt you might just keep the lights on and grass cut, but it doesn’t allows for investment and in the long term it won’t work.

    But if they can keep the doors open until membership grow! That will be the thinking, but that’s based on people won’t pay more elsewhere for a better product. Because without investments including staff, your product won’t be good and they will need to spend on marketing instead of course.

    People want to believe they can keep it going, but the honest truth, it’s pie in the sky stuff and if a farmer wants that land or anyone else, they will out bid them.

    Out of the current 180 members, you’ll find most have already decided to move elsewhere and were only still there due to value and loyalty


  • Registered Users Posts: 744 ✭✭✭ShivasIrons


    mike12 wrote: »
    Surprised Seapoint is in trouble it always seems busy and any open I have ever played there has been full.

    Seapoint is not in trouble. Their loan with one financial institution was bought by another financial institution. There is no mention anywhere that it’s in trouble. If they continue to repay the loan they will never be in trouble.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,187 Mod ✭✭✭✭charlieIRL


    Guys, please refrain from posting that a club "might" be in trouble unless theres concrete evidence. Last thing we want to be doing is turning off existing and potential members from joining / renewing membership just cause they read the course might be in trouble on the internet.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,638 ✭✭✭Barnaboy


    A couple of points very well made by ollieboy. Maintaining a decent quality golf course is very expensive and for that reason alone I cannot see it surviving. That said I think Rathcore have beaten the odds by staying open as long as they have.

    And on Seapoint... Only played it once and I was desperately disappointed with it. Quite simply it is not a links course. In fact you can only see the sea on two holes? I personally would not be in a rush to return. Am I the only one?


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 18,559 Mod ✭✭✭✭slave1


    Seapoint, holes 1-2, 16-18 links, remainder bland enough average parkland, lovely clubhouse.
    Overrated and overpriced


  • Registered Users Posts: 140 ✭✭Bottle


    I have played Seapoint a couple of times a year in open competitions, really enjoyed it. It probably doesn't play like a dunes type links course but is still very good. Think we paid €25 a head for the comp, fantastic value.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,331 ✭✭✭mike12


    https://migrantgolfer.com/the-true-links-courses-of-the-world/

    Seems that it is a links course, there are a couple of the open venues Lytham I'm sure of that the nearest point of the course is 500 yards from the sea.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 26,960 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    davegilly wrote: »
    Clubs really need to look at different membership options to encourage younger people to join. The days of the husband disappearing to the golf club for the day while the Mrs minded the kids at home is long gone.

    Flexible Memberships, Lifestyle Memberships whatever you want to call them is a great way of getting younger guys and gals who are time poor as members. If it's priced right then you should get good numbers signing up - going by my own place.

    For someone like myself with two young kids and a wife working, it's impossible to justify full membership anywhere - I can't be disappearing for half a day Saturday with all the kids sports etc to be looked after. However a flexi membership with 10 or 12 weekend competition rounds is perfect for me and lads like me. I know from speaking to friends that they would sign up to something like this no bother, but it's not really available - even though clubs locally are on their last legs? I'm a flexi member currently where I am and entitled to about 18 weekend rounds a year but I've only played 10 this year and it was similar last year! Doesn't bother me as the price wasn't exhorbitant but it was enough to stop most full members moving over to flexi.

    Another membership option that I've not seen anywhere is a summer or 6 month membership. April to September at 2/3 or 3/4 the price of full membership - this would suit younger people who could play a round after work midweek. Get a GUI and play in home club opens in the evenings during the summer.

    I think the problem mainly is that most club committees are populated by oul lads with little to no knowledge of the modern way of life.
    It's pie in the sky stuff to think you are going to pay 75% for the best part of the golfing year tbh.
    Sure why would anyone pay full whack if that was on offer?

    You are also missing the point that you would be taking up the space that a full member could occupy.
    Would be financial madness.


  • Registered Users Posts: 635 ✭✭✭mjsc1970


    slave1 wrote: »
    Seapoint, holes 1-2, 16-18 links, remainder bland enough average parkland, lovely clubhouse.
    Overrated and overpriced

    You must have very high standards


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,839 ✭✭✭Russman


    davegilly wrote: »
    I think the problem mainly is that most club committees are populated by oul lads with little to no knowledge of the modern way of life.

    Couldn't disagree more with this statement tbh. Might have been true 30 years ago, certainly not now.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 18,559 Mod ✭✭✭✭slave1


    mjsc1970 wrote: »
    You must have very high standards

    Nope, but I like to balance the course versus it's fees/reputation and what I thought it was actually like.
    As I said, lovely clubhouse and food, great links holes for 5 holes but the day I played it a lot of the parkland holes were a boggy mess with muck balls aplenty.

    Don't get me wrong, it's a nice course but I (personally) would not consider it a links course for 18holes and way overpriced for what it is (again, just my personal opinion).

    If it sold itself as a part parkland with some links holes and dropped it's price then fair enough, I remember playing Arklow the same day and what a contrast in terms of value and links playability.
    Just comparing the rack rates of the two (Seapoint do not advertise their GUI rates) Arklow is €45 this Saturday morning, Seapoint €100-€120, even if Seapoint halved their green fee I'd choose Arklow


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    slave1 wrote:
    If it sold itself as a part parkland with some links holes and dropped it's price then fair enough, I remember playing Arklow the same day and what a contrast in terms of value and links playability. Just comparing the rack rates of the two (Seapoint do not advertise their GUI rates) Arklow is €45 this Saturday morning, Seapoint €100-€120, even if Seapoint halved their green fee I'd choose Arklow


    Seapoint and Arklow on the same day? Did you take a bet?

    Agree fully about the relative value. Arklow has its weaknesses (holes crossing and mountain goat terrain in places) but more fun and much better value.


  • Registered Users Posts: 370 ✭✭paulanthony


    Ollieboy wrote: »
    To be honest, your been selfish here in your comment and what the ideal membership that suits you and don’t worry about the club and it’s future as a business.

    I actually look at the options you mentioned and here is some of the reasons it won’t work and the comment oul ones is very unfair.

    To offer 6 months membership you will nearly need to charge the full rate, we can’t just tell staff they don’t get paid or work during the winter
    Clubs only have so many spots on a Saturday morning at peak time, so these spots will go to loyal members and not the seasonal golfer.
    Clubs need to plan and make sure they have finance available for years, so the membership model is the best model for this business.
    The golf membership model as been around for over 100 years and now it’s broken?
    Your comment as always been a problem for the average working family, hence why golf clubs were usually made up of people in there 40 plus age bracket with money and time.

    The problem clubs have is over supply and we are starting to see a end to it now as members are joining the stronger clubs and the weaker clubs are going to make tough decisions.

    The model of membership you want, might be available in the short term but not in the long term as clubs recover.

    This year we’ve grown by 18% in membership and about 15% in green fees. This is our 4th year of strong growth and we are nearly back to full and looking at entrance fees again. When I started on committee 5 years ago we had 4 people under 30 and we now have a package for that age group and have 150 members under 35.

    But if we adopt the membership style you want, we would need double the number of membership and on good weather Saturday you would be moaning that only regulars get out to play etc, so it’s very hard to make those type of membership work in a club and that’s why we have green fees.

    As for the number of clubs in Ireland, a lot are going to be sold for housing in the next few years and that will solve the problem. There is not enough money in golf to use 150 acres for golf when you can make millions in housing.

    So I would nearly bet in 5 years time, the most common post on this forum will be, I can’t get into a club, or how to join a club, or we need more clubs. Change is coming and it’s coming very fast and fees are increasing for members already. This will mainly be in the areas that have demand for housing.

    I don't think he is trying to be selfish - I think he is just offering some potentially creative solutions (which in the end may or may not work) for clubs which are clearly in financial difficulty and struggling to keep going. It is clearly a cashflow issue in the main and generating an extra 60 or 70k a year (or less) could be the difference between staying open or not. I agree if I was a full (traditional style) member of a club the concept of flexible/lifestyle memberships might annoy me, but probably not as much as arriving to the course one day with a chain on the gates!

    When things improve / debt is paid down it may be possible to phase out these schemes and hope some of the lifestyle members will transition to full membership.

    I accept that there may be an oversupply and that it will probably result in some closures, but that is looking at the overall picture. If you are looking at it from the perspective of each individual club they will of course wish to survive and (like any business) do what is needed to keep going. The reality is that in a hypothetical town where there are two golf clubs and not enough revenue to keep either going, the closure of one will probably result in the ensured survival of the other (or of 2-3 others). Eg where Knockanally, Woodlands have closed in the recent past, this is undoubtedly a financial boost to surrounding clubs like Kilcock, Millicent, Rathcore. If one of these had gone first and some members had moved to Knockanally then it may well be thriving now. Obviously not nice to be thinking about being in competition with your neighbours but from a business perspective this is the reality.

    I agree that the point above about "oul lads" running clubs in unfair (and inaccurate). I think a more relevant point would be that committees and committee members running clubs will vary hugely in their ability to run a golf club and its finances as a business. This is true of any voluntary organisation, charity, business or even government...but the reality is that many people in positions of responsibility will often not (in reality) have the experience of running a business and making smart decisions to ensure future financial health. This equally applies to making smart decisions in good times - many committees are probably doing brilliant jobs at the moment against the odds because of the situation they inherited from guys who decided to borrow €2 million in 2006 to build a new clubhouse, restaurant, changing rooms etc because they lost the run of themselves thinking their club should look like the K Club.


  • Registered Users Posts: 508 ✭✭✭Scott Tenorman


    Ollieboy wrote: »
    To be honest, your been selfish here in your comment and what the ideal membership that suits you and don’t worry about the club and it’s future as a business.

    I actually look at the options you mentioned and here is some of the reasons it won’t work and the comment oul ones is very unfair.

    To offer 6 months membership you will nearly need to charge the full rate, we can’t just tell staff they don’t get paid or work during the winter
    Clubs only have so many spots on a Saturday morning at peak time, so these spots will go to loyal members and not the seasonal golfer.
    Clubs need to plan and make sure they have finance available for years, so the membership model is the best model for this business.
    The golf membership model as been around for over 100 years and now it’s broken?
    Your comment as always been a problem for the average working family, hence why golf clubs were usually made up of people in there 40 plus age bracket with money and time.

    The problem clubs have is over supply and we are starting to see a end to it now as members are joining the stronger clubs and the weaker clubs are going to make tough decisions.

    The model of membership you want, might be available in the short term but not in the long term as clubs recover.

    This year we’ve grown by 18% in membership and about 15% in green fees. This is our 4th year of strong growth and we are nearly back to full and looking at entrance fees again. When I started on committee 5 years ago we had 4 people under 30 and we now have a package for that age group and have 150 members under 35.

    But if we adopt the membership style you want, we would need double the number of membership and on good weather Saturday you would be moaning that only regulars get out to play etc, so it’s very hard to make those type of membership work in a club and that’s why we have green fees.

    As for the number of clubs in Ireland, a lot are going to be sold for housing in the next few years and that will solve the problem. There is not enough money in golf to use 150 acres for golf when you can make millions in housing.

    So I would nearly bet in 5 years time, the most common post on this forum will be, I can’t get into a club, or how to join a club, or we need more clubs. Change is coming and it’s coming very fast and fees are increasing for members already. This will mainly be in the areas that have demand for housing.

    Why would you be looking to bring back entrance fees?


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,554 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    Why would you be looking to bring back entrance fees?
    Clubs that are almost full membership wise, usually bring in entrance fees, partly to keep membership from getting out of control (sub increases would penalise existing members unfairly) and obviously raise more funds.


  • Registered Users Posts: 508 ✭✭✭Scott Tenorman


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    Clubs that are almost full membership wise, usually bring in entrance fees, partly to keep membership from getting out of control (sub increases would penalise existing members unfairly) and obviously raise more funds.

    How would raising subs for everyone be unfair?
    And why would they have to shoot up at all, especially if close to full membership?

    It is just going back to then greedy old days


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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,554 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    How would raising subs for everyone be unfair?
    And why would they have to shoot up at all, especially if close to full membership?

    It is just going back to then greedy old days
    The purpose is to throttle back on new memberships. Make it a bit more expensive and they'll go elsewhere. So either subs or entrance fees. Entrance fees don't impact existing members, so that's why they come in. Subs increases would. Did you not read the post you quoted? I thought I made it perfectly clear.


This discussion has been closed.
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