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SLARS

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  • Options
    #92
    Icsics
    Registered Users Posts: 2,043 ✭✭✭Icsics


    acequion wrote: »
    Of course it makes a mockery of directives!

    It was agreed with the DES that a CBA could replace a house exam to avoid over assessment and also to contain somewhat the extra workload on the teacher.

    Now no disrespect to Maths teachers, but correcting a Maths test is not quite as top heavy as correcting an English one.

    But, would I prefer a traditional summer test to a bullshyt CBA? Absolutely.

    Am I prepared to do both if I don't have to? No I'm not.

    Am I prepared to kill myself with over work to try to save the education system that the Irish Govt couldn't give a toss about in real terms? No I most certainly am not.

    How many more times must I remind people that we fought a long, hard campaign and took considerable pain to keep this farce out. But it's in now.

    Are teachers really such grade A doormats that they'll now pick up the slack??

    That’s a good summary of the current state of affairs! I’ve just completed the English oral presentation, I felt sorry for the students having to go through such ****e. It is very difficult for a 2nd yr to speak in front of a class, they hated it. Wait until all the subjects are in, 2nd yrs will be under intense pressure. Parents are slowly waking up, letters are coming in asking for groups to be changed & special accomations for presentations. Wait until they see the useless ‘descriptors’ in the summer exams instead of a grade!


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    #93
    Mardy Bum
    Registered Users Posts: 3,674 ✭✭✭Mardy Bum


    Icsics wrote: »
    acequion wrote: »
    Of course it makes a mockery of directives!

    It was agreed with the DES that a CBA could replace a house exam to avoid over assessment and also to contain somewhat the extra workload on the teacher.

    Now no disrespect to Maths teachers, but correcting a Maths test is not quite as top heavy as correcting an English one.

    But, would I prefer a traditional summer test to a bullshyt CBA? Absolutely.

    Am I prepared to do both if I don't have to? No I'm not.

    Am I prepared to kill myself with over work to try to save the education system that the Irish Govt couldn't give a toss about in real terms? No I most certainly am not.

    How many more times must I remind people that we fought a long, hard campaign and took considerable pain to keep this farce out. But it's in now.

    Are teachers really such grade A doormats that they'll now pick up the slack??

    That’s a good summary of the current state of affairs! I’ve just completed the English oral presentation, I felt sorry for the students having to go through such ****e. It is very difficult for a 2nd yr to speak in front of a class, they hated it. Wait until all the subjects are in, 2nd yrs will be under intense pressure. Parents are slowly waking up, letters are coming in asking for groups to be changed & special accomations for presentations. Wait until they see the useless ‘descriptors’ in the summer exams instead of a grade!

    It all depends what importance you place on it and overall what importance the school places on it. CBA's should help with exam practice. CBA 2 in English is perfect for paper 1 Leaving Certificate preparation. The oral presentation is a very important skill to develop for any student. I have seen huge strides made by students and could feel the sense of achievement after it. If students valued learning more than grades it would greatly improved our education system.


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    #94
    acequion
    Registered Users Posts: 3,827 ✭✭✭acequion


    Mardy Bum wrote: »
    It all depends what importance you place on it and overall what importance the school places on it. CBA's should help with exam practice. CBA 2 in English is perfect for paper 1 Leaving Certificate preparation. The oral presentation is a very important skill to develop for any student. I have seen huge strides made by students and could feel the sense of achievement after it. If students valued learning more than grades it would greatly improved our education system.

    Yes of course there is merit in lots of what you mention there. It's the implementation which is completely arseways.

    The collection of texts, I agree,is a good way to prepare essay work. Though all that was already on the old course and it was fine, because, just as in the LC,they had to learn to do it in exam conditions. That's gone now. In its place though, is the drafting process, which is good.

    But I don't agree with you re the oral presentations. While I think it's a good idea that they are now on the new course, I don't think they should be a CBA and I certainly don't think they're a good replacement for the summer test.

    And your comment about students valuing learning more than grades is totally unrealistic. No youngster ever values learning until they look back from the distant perspective of middle or old age. And in the 21st century world where everything is a means to an end, even less so.

    I completely agree with Icsics that this whole thing will eventually lead to huge pressure on young second years. And who wants that??


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    #95
    Mardy Bum
    Registered Users Posts: 3,674 ✭✭✭Mardy Bum


    acequion wrote: »
    Mardy Bum wrote: »
    It all depends what importance you place on it and overall what importance the school places on it. CBA's should help with exam practice. CBA 2 in English is perfect for paper 1 Leaving Certificate preparation. The oral presentation is a very important skill to develop for any student. I have seen huge strides made by students and could feel the sense of achievement after it. If students valued learning more than grades it would greatly improved our education system.

    Yes of course there is merit in lots of what you mention there. It's the implementation which is completely arseways.

    The collection of texts, I agree,is a good way to prepare essay work. Though all that was already on the old course and it was fine, because, just as in the LC,they had to learn to do it in exam conditions. That's gone now. In its place though, is the drafting process, which is good.

    But I don't agree with you re the oral presentations. While I think it's a good idea that they are now on the new course, I don't think they should be a CBA and I certainly don't think they're a good replacement for the summer test.

    And your comment about students valuing learning more than grades is totally unrealistic. No youngster ever values learning until they look back from the distant perspective of middle or old age. And in the 21st century world where everything is a means to an end, even less so.

    I completely agree with Icsics that this whole thing will eventually lead to huge pressure on young second years. And who wants that??

    I agree it will lead to pressure and it will demand a very streamlined approach at a classroom level, department level and whole school level. By right this should be what jct should be devoting their days to but they seem to be too busy pontificating to the lowest common denominator teacher who still doesn't know what AFL stands for.

    If we don't at least try to inculcate the importance of learning and knowledge over the importance of grades we are setting our students up for a miserable life.


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    #96
    man_no_plan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,018 ✭✭✭man_no_plan


    Mardy Bum wrote: »
    I agree it will lead to pressure and it will demand a very streamlined approach at a classroom level, department level and whole school level. By right this should be what jct should be devoting their days to but they seem to be too busy pontificating to the lowest common denominator teacher who still doesn't know what AFL stands for.

    If we don't at least try to inculcate the importance of learning and knowledge over the importance of grades we are setting our students up for a miserable life.

    I'd be inclined to agree with you but it does seem that the CBA is becoming very high stakes even though it isn't.

    I see second years more wound up about the CBA than third years were about their coursework b, for example. Maybe when the novelty wears off everyone will relax.

    It should not be a major event that requires the whole school to come to a standstill. There's less fuss when the LC Irish orals are on between teachers having conniptions if there's a match on and the talk about how they're in the middle of the CBA...

    Still, it's a good laugh reminding them of the time they told me it in a supportive collegial way that I was so lucky to have a project as part of the woodwork!

    Lucky indeed!!


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    #97
    deiseindublin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭deiseindublin


    Icsics wrote: »
    Ballot on SLARS coming in the Autumn folks
    I'm presuming that's ASTI?

    I wonder have we a hope in hell of TUI bothering when they themselves published exemplar SLAR timetables as happening on teacher half days. Agreement clarification doc clearly states that they have to start during class time. You just couldn't make it up.


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    #98
    doc_17
    Registered Users Posts: 6,832 ✭✭✭doc_17


    deiseindublin wrote: »
    I'm presuming that's ASTI?

    I wonder have we a hope in hell of TUI bothering when they themselves published exemplar SLAR timetables as happening on teacher half days. Agreement clarification doc clearly states that they have to start during class time. You just couldn't make it up.

    “Agreement Clarification”. Have you a link?


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    #99
    deiseindublin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭deiseindublin


    I'm not sure what exactly the doc was called. It was the DES response to questions raised about JC, where they said it would be contrary to the agreement if SLARS were wholly outside class time. Link was posted a few pages back.

    “The Department confirms that any attempt to impose the organisation of SLAR meetings entirely outside school hours would contravene the agreement. The intention is that SLAR meetings will be scheduled to commence within the timetable, involving the inclusion of a normal timetabled period. However, given the required duration [approximately two hours per meeting], flexibility to run beyond the normal school day for some of the duration of the meeting is required. ”


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    #100
    km79
    Registered Users Posts: 48,132 ✭✭✭✭km79


    “At its meeting on May 12th, ASTI Central Executive Council (CEC) adopted the following motion:

    That CEC adopt the view that the current arrangement for SLAR meetings, where a portion of all these meetings takes place outside of school time, contravenes section 9.7 of the appendix to Joint Statement on Principles and Implementation on Junior Cycle reform.

    Therefore CEC adopt the view that section 9.7 means that all SLAR meetings must be scheduled to start and end within normal school tuition hours, and only a limited number may run over, and issue a directive to members to comply.

    This motion requires a ballot of members. ASTI is making arrangements for a ballot in autumn.”

    Well now ......


  • Options
    #101
    Moody_mona
    Registered Users Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭Moody_mona


    Any advice on organising and compromising here? I need one teacher covered for one class so that we can have a "half in half out" slar but it's a no go with management. I don't want to back down and forever more have to do everything outside school time. Any suggestions for phrasing? References? Union help? Please and thank you.


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    #102
    Inspector Coptoor
    Registered Users Posts: 6,818 ✭✭✭Inspector Coptoor


    Moody_mona wrote: »
    Any advice on organising and compromising here? I need one teacher covered for one class so that we can have a "half in half out" slar but it's a no go with management. I don't want to back down and forever more have to do everything outside school time. Any suggestions for phrasing? References? Union help? Please and thank you.

    I would just reply by saying that as a union member you intend on following the union declaration that the SLAR should happen within school time.
    If it’s scheduked outside of school time - you will not be attending anddont back down.


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    #103
    Icsics
    Registered Users Posts: 2,043 ✭✭✭Icsics


    Inspector Coptoor wrote: »
    I would just reply by saying that as a union member you intend on following the union declaration that the SLAR should happen within school time.
    If it’s scheduked outside of school time - you will not be attending anddont back down.

    Yes, its actually quite straightforward but it doesn't suit management. Stand your ground, it can't be held without you! Union was surprisingly helpful & we ended up getting very clearly worded advice & SLAR was held within school time.


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    #104
    fall
    Registered Users Posts: 926 ✭✭✭fall


    Our Tui rep came back from a branch meeting and told us that the Slar will be staying outside of tuition time as they are afraid to bring the spotlight on what constitutes the school day. They fear the department could use it as an opportunity to make us work nine to five!
    They also said that they don't want to rock the boat or teachers will have to start formally accounting for their 40 minute professional time.
    I was genuinely surprised to hear a message like that coming from a branch meeting.


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    #105
    Icsics
    Registered Users Posts: 2,043 ✭✭✭Icsics


    fall wrote: »
    Our Tui rep came back from a branch meeting and told us that the Slar will be staying outside of tuition time as they are afraid to bring the spotlight on what constitutes the school day. They fear the department could use it as an opportunity to make us work nine to five!
    They also said that they don't want to rock the boat or teachers will have to start formally accounting for their 40 minute professional time.
    I was genuinely surprised to hear a message like that coming from a branch meeting.

    Oh sweet Jesus! TUI won't rock the boat on anything it seems


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    #106
    joebloggs32
    Registered Users Posts: 1,591 ✭✭✭joebloggs32


    fall wrote: »
    Our Tui rep came back from a branch meeting and told us that the Slar will be staying outside of tuition time as they are afraid to bring the spotlight on what constitutes the school day. They fear the department could use it as an opportunity to make us work nine to five!
    They also said that they don't want to rock the boat or teachers will have to start formally accounting for their 40 minute professional time.
    I was genuinely surprised to hear a message like that coming from a branch meeting.

    The other issue is that if we were to have SLARS during the school day this would require substition. The department would in that case take back some of the 22 hour professional time given. This would mean teachers losing jobs. When the 22 hours were granted to us it created hundreds of jobs across the whole system. Subbing work is not the same as having proper jobs.
    As a TUI member I fully understood SLARS would be outside of school time once we got the 22 hours. Prior to that subbing was used in English but we were clearly told that this would be the model going forward as it wouldn't be practical to continue the subbing model.

    The point you raised about the school day is something that already happened in the UK and Denmark. They have set out the full day 9 to 5 as part of school time and ALL teachers are required to be present for the full day regardless of timetables. Frightening!


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    #107
    SligoBrewer
    Registered Users Posts: 2,632 ✭✭✭SligoBrewer


    fall wrote: »
    Our Tui rep came back from a branch meeting and told us that the Slar will be staying outside of tuition time as they are afraid to bring the spotlight on what constitutes the school day. They fear the department could use it as an opportunity to make us work nine to five!
    They also said that they don't want to rock the boat or teachers will have to start formally accounting for their 40 minute professional time.
    I was genuinely surprised to hear a message like that coming from a branch meeting.

    An utter fraud of a union.


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    #108
    acequion
    Registered Users Posts: 3,827 ✭✭✭acequion


    joebloggs32 wrote: »
    The other issue is that if we were to have SLARS during the school day this would require substition. The department would in that case take back some of the 22 hour professional time given. This would mean teachers losing jobs. When the 22 hours were granted to us it created hundreds of jobs across the whole system. Subbing work is not the same as having proper jobs.
    As a TUI member I fully understood SLARS would be outside of school time once we got the 22 hours. Prior to that subbing was used in English but we were clearly told that this would be the model going forward as it wouldn't be practical to continue the subbing model.

    The point you raised about the school day is something that already happened in the UK and Denmark. They have set out the full day 9 to 5 as part of school time and ALL teachers are required to be present for the full day regardless of timetables. Frightening!

    "Frightening"??? That's all your union ever seems to want to do. Frighten you guys into submission. And ye fall for it every time. Not one ounce of fight in any of ye! So the Govt would take back the professional time would they or get all tough on it? Yes they might try but a good union wouldn't let them succeed. Not when that professional time was conceded at a time when there was enormous opposition to the new JC. And the Govt were trying to keep us onside with a little sweetener. And now with their hopes of a smoother LC reform I personally can't see them getting so antagonistic. But if they want to either scrap it or make us account for it, they will, regardless of whether or not we've held the boat very steady or have rocked the bejaysus out of it. Being good boys and girls has never gained us anything!

    The same applies if they want to bring in 9-5 presentism. I totally fail to see how our insisting that SLARS are done in school time or half in half out would impact on that in any way. If anything the more we agree to do after school and we're already doing P/T meetings and staff meetings, the more we're edging ourselves towards 9-5 presentism without the Govt having to lift a finger.

    So for the love of god TUI and for the sake of all in the profession would ye grow a pair!


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    #109
    joebloggs32
    Registered Users Posts: 1,591 ✭✭✭joebloggs32


    acequion wrote: »
    "Frightening"??? That's all your union ever seems to want to do. Frighten you guys into submission. And ye fall for it every time. Not one ounce of fight in any of ye! So the Govt would take back the professional time would they or get all tough on it? Yes they might try but a good union wouldn't let them succeed. Not when that professional time was conceded at a time when there was enormous opposition to the new JC. And the Govt were trying to keep us onside with a little sweetener. And now with their hopes of a smoother LC reform I personally can't see them getting so antagonistic. But if they want to either scrap it or make us account for it, they will, regardless of whether or not we've held the boat very steady or have rocked the bejaysus out of it. Being good boys and girls has never gained us anything!

    The same applies if they want to bring in 9-5 presentism. I totally fail to see how our insisting that SLARS are done in school time or half in half out would impact on that in any way. If anything the more we agree to do after school and we're already doing P/T meetings and staff meetings, the more we're edging ourselves towards 9-5 presentism without the Govt having to lift a finger.

    So for the love of god TUI and for the sake of all in the profession would ye grow a pair!

    Parent teacher meetings and staff meetings inside or outside school have no impact on jobs. Scrapping some or all of our professional time does.
    I'm no fan of SLARS but we are stuck with them.


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    #110
    solerina
    Registered Users Posts: 2,433 ✭✭✭solerina


    joebloggs32 wrote: »
    The other issue is that if we were to have SLARS during the school day this would require substition. The department would in that case take back some of the 22 hour professional time given. This would mean teachers losing jobs. When the 22 hours were granted to us it created hundreds of jobs across the whole system. Subbing work is not the same as having proper jobs.
    As a TUI member I fully understood SLARS would be outside of school time once we got the 22 hours. Prior to that subbing was used in English but we were clearly told that this would be the model going forward as it wouldn't be practical to continue the subbing model.

    The point you raised about the school day is something that already happened in the UK and Denmark. They have set out the full day 9 to 5 as part of school time and ALL teachers are required to be present for the full day regardless of timetables. Frightening!

    This idea that hundreds of jobs were created is a total publicity stunt by the government, I know for a fact that not one job was created in my school....we all got our 40 mins per week and no one extra was employed....it’s the same in many schools !!


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    #111
    SligoBrewer
    Registered Users Posts: 2,632 ✭✭✭SligoBrewer


    joebloggs32 wrote: »
    Parent teacher meetings and staff meetings inside or outside school have no impact on jobs. Scrapping some or all of our professional time does.
    I'm no fan of SLARS but we are stuck with them.

    Apparently you lads are such fans of them you do them after school.


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    #112
    joebloggs32
    Registered Users Posts: 1,591 ✭✭✭joebloggs32


    solerina wrote: »
    This idea that hundreds of jobs were created is a total publicity stunt by the government, I know for a fact that not one job was created in my school....we all got our 40 mins per week and no one extra was employed....it’s the same in many schools !!


    Perhaps your school had part time teachers bumped up or you were due to lose teacher.
    For every 33 whole time teachers being alleviated 40 minutes, 22 hours would be created ie one whole time post.


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    #113
    joebloggs32
    Registered Users Posts: 1,591 ✭✭✭joebloggs32


    SligoBrewer wrote: »
    Apparently you lads are such fans of them you do them after school.

    It was clearly signalled in the May 2016 agreement that professional time would be used for SLARS. TUI voted to accept it so that's where we are. As we know the Asti rejected it and I'm not going to go back over old ground. I just feel the Asti now are picking a battle that may if they win cost people jobs or hours that have been created by professional time allocation.


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    #114
    deiseindublin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭deiseindublin


    At least ASTI are willing to battle on something. TUI are (yet again) a disgrace, all they're ever worried about is keeping the status quo and not rocking the boat.

    Original agreement clearly outlined that SOME of the SLAR should be within school time. Common sense means that means at least 40 mins, if all classes are now 40 mins long.

    TUI never intended to even try implementing it though, and gave schools with Wednesday half days as an exemplar. When asked where schools without half days would have them there was a shrug of the shoulder.


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    #115
    solerina
    Registered Users Posts: 2,433 ✭✭✭solerina


    joebloggs32 wrote: »
    Perhaps your school had part time teachers bumped up or you were due to lose teacher.
    For every 33 whole time teachers being alleviated 40 minutes, 22 hours would be created ie one whole time post.

    No we didn’t. The principal told us recently that he managed to give us the class off each but it had put him seriously under pressure. There was a bit of talk afterwards about it coming from LCA/ SEN allocation or similar.


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    #116
    fall
    Registered Users Posts: 926 ✭✭✭fall


    solerina wrote: »
    No we didn’t. The principal told us recently that he managed to give us the class off each but it had put him seriously under pressure. There was a bit of talk afterwards about it coming from LCA/ SEN allocation or similar.

    You are right, the department does not compensate fully for the 40 minute professional time so there definitely weren't as many jobs created as some night believe.


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    #117
    acequion
    Registered Users Posts: 3,827 ✭✭✭acequion


    joebloggs32 wrote: »
    It was clearly signalled in the May 2016 agreement that professional time would be used for SLARS. TUI voted to accept it so that's where we are. As we know the Asti rejected it and I'm not going to go back over old ground. I just feel the Asti now are picking a battle that may if they win cost people jobs or hours that have been created by professional time allocation.

    Not disagreeing with you on the need to safeguard jobs. BUT without half way decent working conditions there won't be teachers to fill the jobs and that's happening already.

    Also, very different stories from the two unions. According to you, TUI are saying do SLARS outside school, yet ASTI are pushing to do them within. In fact it's probably the only thing in recent years that ASTI head office are confident about as they say that Govt are very being very reasonable over the timing of SLARS.

    Shocking to see the two second level unions so divergent!


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    #118
    deiseindublin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭deiseindublin


    I wouldn't use the word shocking. Just another example of the TUI leaving it's members down.


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    #119
    acequion
    Registered Users Posts: 3,827 ✭✭✭acequion


    Deise,what I consider shocking is that we have two second level teacher unions [when one would be enough and altogether more effective] and they can't even be on the same page with something as straight forward and as minor [in the grand scheme of things] as the timetabling of SLARS. You really would despair of those two ever forging close links and with all the crap that's been flung at teachers and the ever more urgent need to unite,it frankly is shocking.


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    #120
    deiseindublin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭deiseindublin


    I agree that it is a desperate situation but anybody following what the TUI are (not) doing the last decade could see the writing on the wall. They've turned into a government/management mouthpiece and have lost their way.

    A union is supposed to protect it's members but the only thing that the TUI protects is the status quo and keeping the peace.


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