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surprise legal bill

  • 06-12-2019 7:42pm
    #1
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭


    i approached a new solicitor over a year ago about making a PIAB application , i explained how i intended to switch over from my usual solicitor who had wrote a few letters to the other party and laid out the cost etc . i made it clear to the new solicitor that my application with my old solicitor had been along the " NO WIN - NO FEE " principal - condition and i therefore expected the new solicitor to offer the same terms if he was interested

    anyway i understood that my new solicitor was willing to match my old solicitors 2500 + vat if i succeeded in getting a settlement through the conventional channels , i knew court might be necessary if the other side refused to engage with the PIAB but expected we would let the PIAB process run its course before making any plans for further action.

    fast forward to the past week and i met this solicitor to discuss our next move as the other side had completely refused to engage with the PIAB on any level , after the solicitor laid out to me what the cost of a trip to both the circuit or high court and what it would cost if i lost the case and had to cover both my own and the other sides cost , he then outlined what he thought the max settlement would be in either the circuit or high court , he also laid out what he thought the other side might offer on the steps of the court and he seemed to be sure it would be no higher than a particular sum , i trust he knows from experience how these things go so was content with the synopsis i received

    i told him i would weigh up my options and let him know inside thirty days whether or not i wished to proceed as the sums are very large in the event things do not go the way you want , i then casually said " well i have no fees with you at this point in time "

    to my shock , he replied " well there is the 2500 + vat for the PIAB application , i was taken aback but insisted that the undertaking he gave me was that he would match my old solicitor who explicitly stated he would take the injuries board case on a " NO WIN - NO FEE " basis but that if that failed fees would obviously begin to accumulate under a court proceedings civil action . i reiterated that i understood this new solicitor was taking the case under the same principal

    after arguing that he would be hugely surprised if he had ever agreed to such a thing , he in the end said if i insist , thats ok , i asked if i should have it put in writing that no fees were currently outstanding , that i dont want to start receiving interest added fees six months down the line , he said " im a man of my word and you dont need it in writing "

    he asked me to pay the fifty euro PIAB admin fee before leaving and i did just that , i cant help but wonder if he will follow me for this money , the only thing i have to support my recollection of the undertaking given thirteen months ago is a circle he put on the " NO WIN - NO FEE " part of the "letter of engagement " schedule he gave me on day one.


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Comments

  • #2
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    A few things from my own recent PIAB experience. Was rear ended.



    The PIAB process is designed to be completed by a lay person and no fees up to the point of the PIAB ruling are payable by the other party.



    Is the PIAB fee not €45?


    All medical costs including the PIAB medical report are claimable. Have you a strong medical report to support your claim?



    Paying €2,500 plus VAT for someone to fill out a PIAB application, which is simply a statement of facts, is mostly the cost of paying someone's legal education.



    This is the legal forum so my take on things may not be ubiquitous.


  • #3
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Chinese whospers wrote: »
    A few things from my own recent PIAB experience. Was rear ended.



    The PIAB process is designed to be completed by a lay person and no fees up to the point of the PIAB ruling are payable by the other party.



    Is the PIAB fee not €45?


    All medical costs including the PIAB medical report are claimable. Have you a strong medical report to support your claim?



    Paying €2,500 plus VAT for someone to fill out a PIAB application, which is simply a statement of facts, is mostly the cost of paying someone's legal education.



    This is the legal forum so my take on things may not be ubiquitous.

    I know all that but thanks anyway.

    I put it to this solicitor that "no win - no fees" were a common contract, his claiming to be amazed at the idea he would agree to such a term left me wondering how reliable he is.

    Compiling a PIAB application which involves submitting a medical legal report and details of the parties involved could hardly take more than three or four hours?

    Even he doesn't do "no win - no fee" and there was a giant misunderstanding between us a year ago, it's an obscenely expensive service, 1500 max should cover four hours work.


  • #4
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    I know all that but thanks anyway.

    I put it to this solicitor that "no win - no fees" were a common contract, his claiming to be amazed at the idea he would agree to such a term left me wondering how reliable he is.

    Compiling a PIAB application which involves submitting a medical legal report and details of the parties involved could hardly take more than three or four hours?

    Even he doesn't do "no win - no fee" and there was a giant misunderstanding between us a year ago, it's an obscenely expensive service, 1500 max should cover four hours work.

    No win no fee is a model in Ireland. Traditionally solicitors take it on if they are fairly sure of winning, and they charge more than if the fee is non reliant on the result.

    Became it's third hand it may take a solicitor longer to complete the application. But it took me approx 20 minutes and then upload the doctors medical form.

    If it was 4 hours for whatever reason then it depends on the solicitor really.


  • #5
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Chinese whospers wrote: »
    No win no fee is a model in Ireland. Traditionally solicitors take it on if they are fairly sure of winning, and they charge more than if the fee is non reliant on the result.

    Became it's third hand it may take a solicitor longer to complete the application. But it took me approx 20 minutes and then upload the doctors medical form.

    If it was 4 hours for whatever reason then it depends on the solicitor really.

    well i understood the solicitor took the case ( PIAB part ) on a no win - no fee basis

    he backtracked pretty quickly after i protested , perhaps he realised he messed up


  • #6
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    Just do it yourself. There's absolutely nothing that can go wrong.


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  • #7
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    ecoli3136 wrote: »
    Just do it yourself. There's absolutely nothing that can go wrong.

    do what myself ?


  • #8
    randomrb
    Registered Users Posts: 351 ✭✭randomrb


    No win - No fee applies if a case runs. However if you want to stop the proceedings or not continue particularly at that early stage then a solicitor is entitled to be paid something for their time if there is no prospect of a reward.

    In saying that 2500 for a PIAB application is a ridiculous figure


  • #9
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    randomrb wrote: »
    No win - No fee applies if a case runs. However if you want to stop the proceedings or not continue particularly at that early stage then a solicitor is entitled to be paid something for their time if there is no prospect of a reward.

    In saying that 2500 for a PIAB application is a ridiculous figure

    When you say "case", i suspect you mean court proceedings?

    I would not expect court representation to be based on no win no fee.

    Court is often not necessary so the PIAB process should be seen as separate until the client decides otherwise.


  • #10
    randomrb
    Registered Users Posts: 351 ✭✭randomrb


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    When you say "case", i suspect you mean court proceedings?

    I would not expect court representation to be based on no win no fee.

    Court is often not necessary so the PIAB process should be seen as separate until the client decides otherwise.

    I mean case as in the whole thing from initial instruction. The reason solicitors take on no foal no fee cases is that they believe that the claim is likely to be succesful and that they will be paid if they are right. If the client pulls out before there is even an offer on the table (particularly where they are still not paying anything) then there is no potential for the solicitor to make money so the client should pay something.


  • #11
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    Mad_maxx wrote: »

    I would not expect court representation to be based on no win no fee.

    Why not? It would involve a barrister, but that's what taking on a no win no fee means. They incur the costs, but remember, they only take on no win/no fee if they believe there's a strong possibility of success.

    Mad_maxx wrote: »

    Court is often not necessary so the PIAB process should be seen as separate until the client decides otherwise.

    When it comes to PIAB no legal representation is expected or covered. Of course, like you did, nobody will stop you from hiring a solicitor.

    I see the process as follows:-

    1. Apply to PIAB, but possibly deal directly with the insurance company. It'll likely be possible to come to sub prime award quickly.
    2. Let the PIAB do their thing and refer to the BoQ to see if the PIAB award is suitable. 6 to 9 months.
    3. If not hire a solicitor and go through the process (3 to 5 years) to get a potentially higher/lower award through the courts.

    I suspect option 3 is not going to be so rewarding due to the time frame involved and the way public/political opinion/trends are going.


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  • #12
    lunamoon
    Registered Users Posts: 263 ✭✭lunamoon


    What I find baffling about this thread is that people expect others to work for free.


  • #13
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    lunamoon wrote: »
    What I find baffling about this thread is that people expect others to work for free.


    Yeah, they should be outed. Name and shame them.


  • #14
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    lunamoon wrote: »
    What I find baffling about this thread is that people expect others to work for free.

    If the claim ( through the PIAB) is successful, the modest amount of work is handsomely rewarded.


  • #15
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,758 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    I think anybody who has no experience dealing with claims is foolish if they don't hire a solicitor when making a PIAB application.


  • #16
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    I think anybody who has no experience dealing with claims is foolish if they don't hire a solicitor when making a PIAB application.

    Have you completed a PIAB application?


  • #17
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,758 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    Chinese whospers wrote: »
    Have you completed a PIAB application?

    I deal with them as part of my job. The PIAB form is pretty straight forward if you are careful and have your ducks in a row but most people won't have things organised as well as they could have.

    I know this shouldn't be the case but when you are organising medicals etc. it's important to have consultants etc. on your side who are sympathetic to the plaintiff's cause. Things like that can maximise the amount of compensation that you can get.

    And if you don't involve a solicitor, how do you know that the PIAB offer will be the best that you can get? It may be a particularly low offer. How do you know whether to accept it or not?

    And if whoever you are claiming against refuse the PIAB offer, you then need to get a solicitor involved so why not get one from the get-go. I know this wasn't the intention of the PIAB process but in reality it's the normal way to go nowadays.

    Back of the envelope calculations here but about 5% of PIAB forms that I deal with are filled in by the injured party. The other 95% involve a solicitor. There's a reason why that's the case.


  • #18
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,324 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    OP - did your new solicitor not give you a Section 68 (?) letter with an estimate of costs when he took on your business?


  • #19
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    OP - did your new solicitor not give you a Section 68 (?) letter with an estimate of costs when he took on your business?

    I can see where you are going with this, however it should be noted that failure to provide a S68 letter does not remove the solicitor right of recovery of fees.

    It may result in a reduction of the costs sought by the legal costs adjudicator if it went that far, and it may be an issue for the Law Society to deal with the non issue of the letter in terms of disciplinary action, but it does not remove the right of recovery.


  • #20
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,324 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    GM228 wrote: »
    I can see where you are going with this, however it should be noted that failure to provide a S68 letter does not remove the solicitor right of recovery of fees.

    That wasn't really where I was going, tbh.


  • #21
    lunamoon
    Registered Users Posts: 263 ✭✭lunamoon


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    That wasn't really where I was going, tbh.

    Why don't you tell us where you were going with it then?


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  • #22
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,324 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    lunamoon wrote: »
    Why don't you tell us where you were going with it then?
    I was really asking the OP if he got a quote upfront for fees, as you would generally do for any job, whether it's a plumber or a solicitor or a website provider.


  • #23
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    lunamoon wrote: »
    What I find baffling about this thread is that people expect others to work for free.

    Absolutely. Find the OP's reaction to being asked to pay for a service odd. The OP's solicitor is absolutely right to want to be paid for his work.


  • #24
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Absolutely. Find the OP's reaction to being asked to pay for a service odd. The OP's solicitor is absolutely right to want to be paid for his work.

    He agreed a year ago to a " no win - no fee" deal


  • #25
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    It's worth noting that the "no win no fee" basis usually does not cover outlay costs which is separate to the solicitors fees - I'm not saying €2500 is an appropriate outlay cost, just making the point.

    As asked previously by another poster was a S68 letter provided?


  • #26
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 13,982 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    GM228 wrote: »
    It's worth noting that the "no win no fee" basis usually does not cover outlay costs which is separate to the solicitors fees - I'm not saying €2500 is an appropriate outlay cost, just making the point.

    As asked previously by another poster was a S68 letter provided?

    Would a no win no fee agreement be based on the PIAB case reaching its conclusion? The solicitor would be basing their fee agreement on being paid if the claimant is successful, and not if unsuccessful. If the claim doesn’t reach the decision stage, surely the solicitor is entitled to be paid as they have done their part to prepare the case for consideration?

    I recently paid a solicitor for work done trying to get a window supply company to honour a warranty which ultimately failed as the company went into liquidation. I understood that the solicitor had put in quite a bit of work and could not be blamed for the unsuccessful outcome. Bit of a pain, but guy is due his fee.


  • #27
    Masala
    Registered Users Posts: 3,462 ✭✭✭Masala


    We have a PIAB claim against us in my company from a member of the public. We have or Solicitors on it and we gonna defend it with every penny we got. We gonna tie the plaintiff in knots legally and if he thinks we gonna ‘deal’ on the steps - he has another thing coming. Hope the OP expectations are not a easy win with no cost cos he in a DIY situation.


  • #28
    Dolbhad
    Registered Users Posts: 782 ✭✭✭Dolbhad


    lunamoon wrote: »
    What I find baffling about this thread is that people expect others to work for free.


    That is it. If you don’t want to pay, do the injuries board application yourself. However if it then goes to hearing I would think solicitors would be more reluctant to take on a case then when they weren’t involved from the start.


  • #29
    hullaballoo
    Administrators, Entertainment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,707 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭hullaballoo


    Masala wrote: »
    We have a PIAB claim against us in my company from a member of the public. We have or Solicitors on it and we gonna defend it with every penny we got. We gonna tie the plaintiff in knots legally and if he thinks we gonna ‘deal’ on the steps - he has another thing coming. Hope the OP expectations are not a easy win with no cost cos he in a DIY situation.
    This approach is baffling. You are going to spend tens of thousands being obstructive in the knowledge that you're going to lose at the end anyway and have to pay damages and two huge (due to your shenanigans) sets of costs?

    Don't get me wrong, my interests align with this approach to defending PI claims because it makes a case that would otherwise be worth a few hundred now worth a few thousand all because a defendant gets a bee in their bonnet and wants to fight a losing battle.

    It's great for lawyers but difficult to see how it makes any sense to you.


  • #30
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Masala wrote: »
    We have a PIAB claim against us in my company from a member of the public. We have or Solicitors on it and we gonna defend it with every penny we got. We gonna tie the plaintiff in knots legally and if he thinks we gonna ‘deal’ on the steps - he has another thing coming. Hope the OP expectations are not a easy win with no cost cos he in a DIY situation.

    I don't recall saying i was proceeding and if i do decide to proceed to court, i do not expect the same ( or any) solicitor to represent me for free or provide a no win - no fee deal


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  • #31
    hullaballoo
    Administrators, Entertainment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,707 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭hullaballoo


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    I don't recall saying i was proceeding and if i do decide to proceed to court, i do not expect the same ( or any) solicitor to represent me for free or provide a no win - no fee deal
    No foal, no fee is a standard arrangement for PI plaintiffs and their legal advisers up to and including trial.

    The same arrangement is common in other areas of practice too where there is litigation involving the assertion of legal rights and remedies by people who but for such an arrangement would not be in a position to litigate.


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