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Remote working - the future?

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12467…52

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  • Options
    #92
    Sunny Disposition
    Registered Users Posts: 2,704 ✭✭✭Sunny Disposition


    ineedeuro wrote: »
    City centre's will not see a decline. You won't see city centre like in Dublin etc have shops close. What you are seeing in people with families etc moving outside of the major cities and to villages/town. These are people with kids etc and no longer want to live 30 mins away from a party capital. This will allow for the newer generation who want to live in these locations to move in.

    So the people buying in these town/villages etc live in Swords/Blanchardstown etc if you take Dublin as an example. This will have zero affect on shops in that area because as they move out people will move in. What it does is reduce the pressure on cities while regenerating villages/town. Without WFH then everyone is trying to buy in the same area and hence we have this shortage of houses in cities while town/villages in Ireland are dying.

    I don't see how pressure will come on school, I am from countryside, in my old school the place is dead, they could handle double the number of pupils they currently have. They just don't have the kids in the area. The local GGA teams are joining together to get numbers to play. While in Dublin you have a GAA club with 7-8 teams for each age grade because of the numbers.

    People lived for years in these villages./towns then due to the trend they moved away and the populations dropped. Now you are saying these towns are not capable of increasing back the population? what is that based on? you are taking one example and painting the entire country with it. Lahinch is not a representative of the rest of Ireland.

    I still have family who live in my old village, they are overjoyed with the fact new people are coming in. People who grew up in the area can now move back. It's not new houses they are building, a lot are buying old houses and repairing. The market for this is huge. I see thousands of positives for everyone.

    I do think the change that is coming is very positive, but that there will be challenges. The main one will be dealing with urban decay, which I'd expect to be be a far greater problem by the end of the decade. Many rural areas will be able to take greater numbers of people, but it probably won't be simple, especially in the more desireable coastal areas.
    I hope people can see I'm not saying the changes coming from remote working are negative, I think the positives will outweigh the negatives greatly. I do believe there will be challenges though, and I don't think people realise how significant the changes will be over the next 50 years.
    Talk about saving rural Ireland is already out of date, that problem is not going to exist anymore, rural towns in the west are certainly going to thrive now. Basically this is fantastic news for Ireland as a whole, despite the challenges that will accompany it.
    Again the positives will outweigh the negatives greatly, but there will be losers here too.


  • Options
    #93
    Swindled
    Closed Accounts Posts: 374 ✭✭Swindled


    ineedeuro wrote: »
    You are talking about two different things. If a manager is not a good manager then they are not required in the office or WFH.
    Replacing a bad manager with a good one should always be done. This is your post:

    That's not the point at all, we all know there are many middle managers out there who do not produce any actual work, but spend the day justifying themselves with office politics and pointless filler meetings, and in reality work gets done despite them, in between their time wasting, and not because of them. That does not mean all of middle management has been exposed as not being required, but many have been, and are now left flapping around on teams calls wasting large blocks of time, but now we can at least turn the volume down and get on with the real work in the background while they drone on, instead of trudging around to meeting rooms and their offices, to stare at the walls while they drone. Just one of the many reasons for the WFH productivity. It's much harder for middle management to hide this reality from Business owners and Senior Management now.
    ineedeuro wrote: »
    That read to me you say middle management is bloated and WFH doesn't require them.
    Even in a WFH capacity managers are required, if you think it is bloated then that is a company issue no matter on location. If you think bad managers are employed again location has no bearing.
    If you meant something else sorry it wasn't clear in your post

    Then I would advise reading it again more carefully this time, no where did I say middle management is not required.


  • Options
    #94
    PhilOssophy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,114 ✭✭✭PhilOssophy


    City Centre's won't just decline. Tell half of the 18-20 somethings living in some small town in Rural Ireland that they are going to work in their local town or village, see the reply you get. Young people want to live in cities for the social aspect and getting away from home. If I was 18 year old now, nothing would change that for me.
    floorpie wrote: »
    What is this weird vibe in the thread where junior people think they're more competent than their managers :confused:

    The lack of socialisation from WFH has gone to some of your heads I think (as surveys show, which is why WFH as we know it will end)

    Well, I can tell you I've worked with middle managers where an intern is more competent. Not everybody gets where they are through being competent - some do, but plenty get their by kissing the right backsides, having the right friends, etc in spite of not having a clue what they are at. Every workplace is full of these bluffers.


  • Options
    #95
    Sunny Disposition
    Registered Users Posts: 2,704 ✭✭✭Sunny Disposition


    No doubt loads of people have left rural areas in Ireland and everywhere else for social life, but loads of young people have also left for career reasons. To an extent one reinforced the other, there was little happening in provincial areas because of migration, and the more people migrated the more others wanted to do so. There was something of a virtuous circle for larger urban areas, but that is changing.

    City centre businesses that depended on office workers are facing a very uncertain future. For example a multi storey car park I use in Limerick was nearly full every weekday morning. If the number of office workers in that area is still down by 50% or more in 2022 then that business is in serious long term decline. There's a Spar a few doors away where you wouldn't exactly do your weekly shopping, but could get a coffee and a sandwich if you wanted it, heaps of similar businesses in city centres are going to close or employ fewer staff. The decline of city centres, ones that were based on the spending of office workers anyway, is inevitable. What's important now is that this is planned for and managed.

    Back 30 years ago cities were trying to get cultural areas going, but this kinda got ruined by the property boom. There's going to be a chance to revisit this now with less demand for city centre properties.

    We have a terrible history of bad planning and spatial strategies in Ireland, and the fact that remote working became so common so fast doesn't encourage much hope unfortunately.


  • Options
    #96
    ineedeuro
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 989 ✭✭✭ineedeuro


    Sunny Disposition wrote: »
    I do think the change that is coming is very positive, but that there will be challenges. The main one will be dealing with urban decay, which I'd expect to be be a far greater problem by the end of the decade. Many rural areas will be able to take greater numbers of people, but it probably won't be simple, especially in the more desireable coastal areas.
    I hope people can see I'm not saying the changes coming from remote working are negative, I think the positives will outweigh the negatives greatly. I do believe there will be challenges though, and I don't think people realise how significant the changes will be over the next 50 years.
    Talk about saving rural Ireland is already out of date, that problem is not going to exist anymore, rural towns in the west are certainly going to thrive now. Basically this is fantastic news for Ireland as a whole, despite the challenges that will accompany it.
    Again the positives will outweigh the negatives greatly, but there will be losers here too.

    https://www.image.ie/editorial/people-rural-ireland-130510
    This was only 12 months ago, yes more people are working from home but I don't see mass exodus to the country yet so saying rural ireland issue is resolved is getting ahead now.

    In terms of city centre business depending on workers. Having 20 coffee shops in a 5 mile radius is what most city centres are now, closing them down and getting more unique shops etc focused on bringing families in at weekend should be a priority.

    The likes of Dublin will alwyas have a huge amount of people working in it, business are not going to close overnight. What you will see is instead of 100% of a company based in a city centre you could maybe have 40% WFH which gives the best for everyone.

    I again say, closing one or two Starbucks is no harm


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    #97
    PhilOssophy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,114 ✭✭✭PhilOssophy


    Sunny Disposition wrote: »
    No doubt loads of people have left rural areas in Ireland and everywhere else for social life, but loads of young people have also left for career reasons. To an extent one reinforced the other, there was little happening in provincial areas because of migration, and the more people migrated the more others wanted to do so. There was something of a virtuous circle for larger urban areas, but that is changing.

    City centre businesses that depended on office workers are facing a very uncertain future. For example a multi storey car park I use in Limerick was nearly full every weekday morning. If the number of office workers in that area is still down by 50% or more in 2022 then that business is in serious long term decline. There's a Spar a few doors away where you wouldn't exactly do your weekly shopping, but could get a coffee and a sandwich if you wanted it, heaps of similar businesses in city centres are going to close or employ fewer staff. The decline of city centres, ones that were based on the spending of office workers anyway, is inevitable. What's important now is that this is planned for and managed.

    Back 30 years ago cities were trying to get cultural areas going, but this kinda got ruined by the property boom. There's going to be a chance to revisit this now with less demand for city centre properties.

    We have a terrible history of bad planning and spatial strategies in Ireland, and the fact that remote working became so common so fast doesn't encourage much hope unfortunately.

    Honestly, I won't cry a river for the car park owner who charged 2-3 euro an hour, or the Spar who charges fiver for a roll and 3 euro for a coffee.

    City centres have survived a brutal recession from the late noughties to the early tens, they need to be more creative in their approach. There is still enough people who want to live in cities, to mean they'll need to adapt their approach. The high street has been dying for years as people move to online shopping, that isn't today or yesterday's problem.

    The rural town will benefit massively from remote working, for years we've been saying we need families to be able to live in these towns and not spend 2-3 hours a day in a car to get to work.

    Remote working has changed the goal posts, and there will be opportunities for all sides post pandemic whether they prefer the office or remote working. It took a pandemic to show it could work is the biggest farce of all.

    Anything which means less congestion, less packed buses, etc is a good days work.


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    #98
    Young_gunner
    Registered Users Posts: 533 ✭✭✭Young_gunner


    PhilOssophy wrote: »
    Honestly, I won't cry a river for the car park owner who charged 2-3 euro an hour, or the Spar who charges fiver for a roll and 3 euro for a coffee.

    City centres have survived a brutal recession from the late noughties to the early tens, they need to be more creative in their approach. There is still enough people who want to live in cities, to mean they'll need to adapt their approach. The high street has been dying for years as people move to online shopping, that isn't today or yesterday's problem.

    The rural town will benefit massively from remote working, for years we've been saying we need families to be able to live in these towns and not spend 2-3 hours a day in a car to get to work.

    Remote working has changed the goal posts, and there will be opportunities for all sides post pandemic whether they prefer the office or remote working. It took a pandemic to show it could work is the biggest farce of all.

    Anything which means less congestion, less packed buses, etc is a good days work.

    Couldn't agree more. this a massive opportunity to re-prioritise quality of life and family time, we have to take it


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    #99
    Sunny Disposition
    Registered Users Posts: 2,704 ✭✭✭Sunny Disposition


    ineedeuro wrote: »
    https://www.image.ie/editorial/people-rural-ireland-130510
    This was only 12 months ago, yes more people are working from home but I don't see mass exodus to the country yet so saying rural ireland issue is resolved is getting ahead now.

    In terms of city centre business depending on workers. Having 20 coffee shops in a 5 mile radius is what most city centres are now, closing them down and getting more unique shops etc focused on bringing families in at weekend should be a priority.

    The likes of Dublin will alwyas have a huge amount of people working in it, business are not going to close overnight. What you will see is instead of 100% of a company based in a city centre you could maybe have 40% WFH which gives the best for everyone.

    I again say, closing one or two Starbucks is no harm

    Even 40% of office workers going out of a city centre is massive, it means a huge change in spending and there definitely needs to be a major policy response from central government and local authorities. But the local authorities would be very lucky to keep the number at 40%.
    My concern is there will be a drift, with almost nothing done for a few years. It is very hard for local authorities to respond of course, but they need to plan for city centres with much less footfall now.


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    #100
    Sunny Disposition
    Registered Users Posts: 2,704 ✭✭✭Sunny Disposition


    Young_gunner wrote: »
    Couldn't agree more. this a massive opportunity to re-prioritise quality of life and family time, we have to take it

    I would think there's no doubt it will happen, because the interests of business who don't want office space intersect with their workers who want to be at home. But its important that the country plans for what's happening, it's a huge change and the full implications won't be seen for at least 30 years.


  • Options
    #101
    Young_gunner
    Registered Users Posts: 533 ✭✭✭Young_gunner


    Sunny Disposition wrote: »
    I would think there's no doubt it will happen, because the interests of business who don't want office space intersect with their workers who want to be at home. But its important that the country plans for what's happening, it's a huge change and the full implications won't be seen for at least 30 years.

    I really hope you're right.

    The WFH and no commuting has been a total gift, really felt like life was passing me by, stuck on a merry go round and every week just blended into one.

    I know it sounds a bit grandiose, but the wfh has been transformative. I don't ever think I've been this content, productive and just happy. You get so much more out of your life.


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    #102
    PhilOssophy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,114 ✭✭✭PhilOssophy


    Sunny Disposition wrote: »
    Even 40% of office workers going out of a city centre is massive, it means a huge change in spending and there definitely needs to be a major policy response from central government and local authorities. But the local authorities would be very lucky to keep the number at 40%.
    My concern is there will be a drift, with almost nothing done for a few years. It is very hard for local authorities to respond of course, but they need to plan for city centres with much less footfall now.

    Agree, but its also an opportunity for the often lowly paid retail worker to buy a house and live a decent life in a rural town for example. For years we've been told that Dublin is at capacity, and now that the tables have changed and there's opportunities for rural Ireland and for families to live and settle there like many generations before.

    This decrease in demand will also help in time potentailly reduce rents in cities, which will also help young people work and save while having a good time as well.

    Its a long overdue rebalancing of our country, doing what waffly Spatial Strategies (which cost the tax payer a fortune in consultants fees) failed to do.


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    #103
    PhilOssophy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,114 ✭✭✭PhilOssophy


    Young_gunner wrote: »
    I really hope you're right.

    The WFH and no commuting has been a total gift, really felt like life was passing me by, stuck on a merry go round and every week just blended into one.

    I know it sounds a bit grandiose, but the wfh has been transformative. I don't ever think I've been this content, productive and just happy. You get so much more out of your life.

    I agree with this, I don't have a long or expensive commute (on a bike) but I'm definitely of the opinion that spending time with family is much more productive than with any work colleagues.

    That said, a day or two of headspace would do us all the world of good! :D


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    #104
    Strumms
    Registered Users Posts: 24,804 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    dashoonage wrote: »
    Lads, have people the inability to socially interact outside of the work environment or what's the crack ? Big bad world out there outside of the watercooler chats lads....

    This, people who I socialize with I choose to socialize with... work colleagues are just people I work with. Get on with some more then others, some I’ve considered work ‘friends’...

    They get forgotten about at 6pm each evening and I’d think about them not for a millisecond at the weekends..

    It’s mad how many people identify with a job, workplace and colleagues as an extreme social extension and almost family mindset....

    I go to work to earn, I just try and enjoy, have some craic and do what I need to...and leave.


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    #105
    Sunny Disposition
    Registered Users Posts: 2,704 ✭✭✭Sunny Disposition


    Young_gunner wrote: »
    I really hope you're right.

    The WFH and no commuting has been a total gift, really felt like life was passing me by, stuck on a merry go round and every week just blended into one.

    I know it sounds a bit grandiose, but the wfh has been transformative. I don't ever think I've been this content, productive and just happy. You get so much more out of your life.

    I don't think it's grandiose, I would say it has been transformative for a lot of people. If you save two to three hours a day that would be spent commuting that is life changing.
    But the real benefits will be felt when the restrictions ease. It happened on the hoof and people felt isolated not just because they didn't see work colleagues, but their social lives evaporated as well. Hopefully that'll be a thing of the past in a few weeks.
    TBH life DOES pass you by if all you're doing is working and commuting.


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    #106
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Strumms wrote: »
    This, people who I socialize with I choose to socialize with... work colleagues are just people I work with. Get on with some more then others, some I’ve considered work ‘friends’...

    They get forgotten about at 6pm each evening and I’d think about them not for a millisecond at the weekends..

    It’s mad how many people identify with a job, workplace and colleagues as an extreme social extension and almost family mindset....

    I go to work to earn, I just try and enjoy, have some craic and do what I need to...and leave.

    Exactly. I take my work seriously, I actually really enjoy the work I do and I feel fortunate to say that. But I consider my work colleagues to be just that... colleagues. Nice people. But we're a team, not best mates.

    I don't think about work AT ALL outside of work hours. I believe it's healthy to switch off like that, and I pity people who make work their whole life.


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    #107
    ambro25
    Registered Users Posts: 5,994 ✭✭✭ambro25


    Del2005 wrote: »
    There's tax implications for companies if their staff are remotely working in different countries. So they'll make staff come in a few days to make sure that they are resident in the country where they are employed.
    You’re right, there are such tax implications, and they are frequently complex. But not sure how or why a company would make its employees come in to ‘make sure’ that they are ‘resident in the country where they are employed’.

    Residence is a personal choice and tax implications of cross-border working are a personal responsibility: the employer’s only liability in that context, is to make sure the correct deductions are made under (domestic) tax laws applicable to the employer, wherein any reconciliation to be made under double-taxation agreements is usually the employee’s responsibility.

    We get this a lot here in Luxembourg, wherein most offices have employees residing in France, Belgium and Germany, each of which has a different statutory maximum number of days allowed for work-from-home, before the employee must start paying income tax and social security contributions in their country of residence instead of Luxembourg.

    From memory, 29 days for French residents, 24 for Belgian residents and 19 days for German residents (these thresholds have been waved by each country since last year, in country-respective deals with Lux, but these “pandemic-only” exceptional arrangements are scheduled to end by end June 2021).

    Currently no idea if they’re going to continue or not, in modified form or not. Green-ification and worker sentiment is for continuation, but FR/BE/DE authorities want the €s / must shield local employers from Lux competition on job markets.


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    #108
    krissovo
    Registered Users Posts: 2,645 ✭✭✭krissovo


    From Monday we will officially have no offices we have just been informed. Turns out they have spent the last 12 months re-modeling the old offices and they are now to be known as Innovation and Collaboration Hubs.

    In fairness they have done a great job and it looks a great place to work from when you need to as it is zoned for different uses. We have the following spaces: Customer, Collaboration, Focus, Connect & Social, Rest & relax, Wellbeing, learning zones

    We are all now officially home based and can claim travel expenses & hotel if needed when attending the hub.


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    #109
    PhilOssophy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,114 ✭✭✭PhilOssophy


    Strumms wrote: »
    This, people who I socialize with I choose to socialize with... work colleagues are just people I work with. Get on with some more then others, some I’ve considered work ‘friends’...

    They get forgotten about at 6pm each evening and I’d think about them not for a millisecond at the weekends..

    It’s mad how many people identify with a job, workplace and colleagues as an extreme social extension and almost family mindset....

    I go to work to earn, I just try and enjoy, have some craic and do what I need to...and leave.

    Agree with this. I think it might be an age thing though, when I was in my twenties, I was well up for a night out with fellow graduates. Including Coppers and the like.

    Now, I don't mind a quick pint or two after work maybe once a month or 6 weeks. But beyond that, I see work as paying bills and I've my own life outside of the place.

    I like my immediate team, but think my work colleagues beyond that are meh.


  • Options
    #110
    PhilOssophy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,114 ✭✭✭PhilOssophy


    The good thing is, that there's room for both in the new ways of working.
    If people want to work 100% remote, they will be able to find a role which will facilitate it.
    If people want to go into an office 5 days a week, thy will find a place which will facilitate it too.
    Both will have room in our post Covid world.


  • Options
    #111
    ineedeuro
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 989 ✭✭✭ineedeuro


    PhilOssophy wrote: »
    The good thing is, that there's room for both in the new ways of working.
    If people want to work 100% remote, they will be able to find a role which will facilitate it.
    If people want to go into an office 5 days a week, thy will find a place which will facilitate it too.
    Both will have room in our post Covid world.

    Most companies will offer both.


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    #112
    Young_gunner
    Registered Users Posts: 533 ✭✭✭Young_gunner


    krissovo wrote: »
    From Monday we will officially have no offices we have just been informed. Turns out they have spent the last 12 months re-modeling the old offices and they are now to be known as Innovation and Collaboration Hubs.

    In fairness they have done a great job and it looks a great place to work from when you need to as it is zoned for different uses. We have the following spaces: Customer, Collaboration, Focus, Connect & Social, Rest & relax, Wellbeing, learning zones

    We are all now officially home based and can claim travel expenses & hotel if needed when attending the hub.

    the dream!


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    #113
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Young_gunner wrote: »
    the dream!

    Isn't it though


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    #114
    ineedeuro
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 989 ✭✭✭ineedeuro


    krissovo wrote: »
    From Monday we will officially have no offices we have just been informed. Turns out they have spent the last 12 months re-modeling the old offices and they are now to be known as Innovation and Collaboration Hubs.

    In fairness they have done a great job and it looks a great place to work from when you need to as it is zoned for different uses. We have the following spaces: Customer, Collaboration, Focus, Connect & Social, Rest & relax, Wellbeing, learning zones

    We are all now officially home based and can claim travel expenses & hotel if needed when attending the hub.

    :eek:
    If only my company woudl do the same


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    #115
    Strumms
    Registered Users Posts: 24,804 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    krissovo wrote: »
    From Monday we will officially have no offices we have just been informed. Turns out they have spent the last 12 months re-modeling the old offices and they are now to be known as Innovation and Collaboration Hubs.

    In fairness they have done a great job and it looks a great place to work from when you need to as it is zoned for different uses. We have the following spaces: Customer, Collaboration, Focus, Connect & Social, Rest & relax, Wellbeing, learning zones

    We are all now officially home based and can claim travel expenses & hotel if needed when attending the hub.

    Go in every day ;)

    If asked, “ sorry, I don’t have a suitable space / environment to work from at home.. :). SFA they could do about it legally.

    If they tried to sack / discipline they could be on a serious financial looser if you went the legal route.


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    #116
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,362 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    krissovo wrote: »
    We are all now officially home based and can claim travel expenses & hotel if needed when attending the hub.

    Have Revenue signed off on the expenses ?


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    #117
    ineedeuro
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 989 ✭✭✭ineedeuro


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    Have Revenue signed off on the expenses ?

    Why would revenue get involved in expenses?


  • Options
    #118
    C3PO
    Registered Users Posts: 3,738 ✭✭✭C3PO


    Young_gunner wrote: »
    I really hope you're right.

    The WFH and no commuting has been a total gift, really felt like life was passing me by, stuck on a merry go round and every week just blended into one.

    I know it sounds a bit grandiose, but the wfh has been transformative. I don't ever think I've been this content, productive and just happy. You get so much more out of your life.

    And so you should definitely find a job that allows you to continue to work remotely. But it is becoming clear that full time working from home will not be a choice for the majority of office workers much as you would seem to wish for that.
    Can I ask whether you are so exercised because you are being put under pressure to return to the office?


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    #119
    C3PO
    Registered Users Posts: 3,738 ✭✭✭C3PO


    PhilOssophy wrote: »
    The good thing is, that there's room for both in the new ways of working.
    If people want to work 100% remote, they will be able to find a role which will facilitate it.
    If people want to go into an office 5 days a week, thy will find a place which will facilitate it too.
    Both will have room in our post Covid world.

    Agreed - and that is how it should be. But people who want to work full time remotely may well have to move from their current role to achieve this - many companies will not facilitate that option, nor are they obliged to.


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    #120
    kippy
    Registered Users Posts: 18,393 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    Swindled wrote: »
    WFH on a large scale has finally exposed the sham of layer upon layer of bloated middle management and bureaucracy and enormous office and real estate requirements for what it is, employees knew it, and now Business owners know it as well.
    This is not necessarily a good thing though.....


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    #121
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    kippy wrote: »
    This is not necessarily a good thing though.....

    Expand?


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