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15-05-2019, 16:58   #91
SusieBlue
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Originally Posted by sbsquarepants View Post
I can of course. And I can see how some women might not tell the truth too.

As I said, it's a pointless question. It's not like they can do anything about it either way. Even if they know full well one party (or even both) is entirely making it up - what difference does it make.

Skanks have babies all the time, drinking, smoking, drugs and whatnot. The doctors can't do a single thing about it.
If they suspect a woman is abusing drugs or alcohol they have a duty of care to report it to Túsla.
The woman will be more closely monitored during pregnancy and her ability to care for the child will be assessed after the child is born. Home checks & family interviews will be done.
She'll basically have social services on her back for the duration of her pregnancy, and after her child is born - its not like they don't act on it.
A false report like that could have serious consequences for a vulnerable woman in such a situation.

Can you imagine the dangerous scenarios it could cause?
"If you tell anyone I hit you, I'll tell the doctor you're drinking every night and the baby will be taken off you." - that's the reality of what would happen. It would be used as yet another means of control.

I can think of more than a few situations I've heard of where the man/father would absolutely have made a false report if given an opportunity to privately "verify" whether the woman was telling the truth or not.

Its a system open to manipulation and abuse. A womans word should be enough, I think.
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15-05-2019, 16:59   #92
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Watched the rest of this last night and my heart was in my mouth when that lady went missing and she took all those pills. Wonder how he managed to get access like that.
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15-05-2019, 17:01   #93
Akrasia
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Love the way that you have already decided what your missus would say if asked that question!

I assume that you have informed her accordingly?
I know my wife, and I know how we treat each other.

If you're in a relationship where you cannot be confident that your partner isn't worried for his/her safety in the family home then you need to ask yourself some serious questions.

It's not even that I 'know' for sure that my wife would answer no to the question. It's that I have absolutely no reason to be worried that she might say yes.
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15-05-2019, 17:08   #94
Akrasia
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again, i think the point is it is one sided only, imagine if you were checking in for a routine hospital visit and someone asked you that question, about your partner

or your child visiting the doctor for a graze and they started asking them if you did it

I don't feel uncomfortable at all, it's just a waste of time
I was responding to someone who said that the question made them uncomfortable.

I have absolutely no problem with a public health nurse or GP asking every pregnant woman the same screening questions about their domestic situation because domestic violence is a real problem, and pregnant women and the developing baby and newborn babies are all extremely vulnerable to domestic abusers.

If I brought my kid to the doctor for a graze and the doctor asked me how the injury was caused, I would have absolutely no issue with telling him/her.

If the same child appeared in a doctors surgery regularly for bruises or other physical injuries that they have no good explanation for then the doctor has a duty to report his/her concerns to the social services.

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you seem very uncomfortable I must say
I put too much hot sauce in my chilli for dinner.

There won't be a toilet safe in the house tonight

Last edited by Akrasia; 16-05-2019 at 09:54.
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15-05-2019, 21:35   #95
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Yea...so the thread was about a documentary following women with post partum depression and pyschosis,not bonding with babies and driven to suicide attempts and here we are discussing how men feel at the first booking appointment.

These will be the men complaining about how tired they are as their partner struggles through a 36 hour labour.
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15-05-2019, 21:43   #96
volchitsa
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She's being afforded this additional duty of care not for herself but because of our child.
This is frankly weird. What do you want them to do exactly?

If you think she is drinking or not coping, couldn't - and indeed shouldn't - you contact someone without being asked?

A pregnant woman who feels under threat from her partner though may well not be able to escape from him to get help. Why would it bother you that you don't get an equal chance to complain about her?
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15-05-2019, 22:11   #97
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This is frankly weird. What do you want them to do exactly?

If you think she is drinking or not coping, couldn't - and indeed shouldn't - you contact someone without being asked?

A pregnant woman who feels under threat from her partner though may well not be able to escape from him to get help. Why would it bother you that you don't get an equal chance to complain about her?

Having read through the thread, I’d imagine he’s not the least bit bothered by it. It just seems to be a disingenuous attempt to point-score about “gender equality”

I haven’t seen the documentary but tbh I wouldn’t be too interested in watching it or having “conversations” about it. It’s just my own personal take on these types of documentaries but I think they exploit vulnerable people’s personal circumstances and are often more divisive than they are in any way supportive - in this particular case of women experiencing postpartum psychosis which is far more rare than postpartum depression.
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15-05-2019, 22:25   #98
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To answer the OPs post, the shocking thing is there are NO mother and baby units in Ireland. There are 2 psychiatrists specialized in the mental health of women during pregnancy and no psychology services specialized in the area. Think about yourself, your wife, your sister etc, and how there is nowhere for them to get support if they have a baby. As the doc very clearly conveyed, the ladies weren’t particularly disadvantaged or uniquely vulnerable. They were just people, not to dissimilar to you and I, who were caught in the eye of a perfect storm of biological and psychological stresses. I would love to see such a service lobbied for. And for those wondering if the baby is vulnerable, for the very small proportion of mothers who have thoughts about harming their baby, an even tinier percentage will act on these. The doc showed the babies sleeping in a separate room and there was no indication that the women were left alone with them. With this logic, anyone who has mental health difficulties are not safe to look after their children, which is not true.
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15-05-2019, 22:32   #99
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With this logic, anyone who has mental health difficulties are not safe to look after their children, which is not true.
I agree with most of your post. In fact I even agree with the above to a point. However mothers who experience mental health difficulties *can create an adverse environment for their child. So while there will be no danger of death or physical harm, the emotional impact can be great.


*I use the word "can" because I'm not for one minute suggesting all mothers who struggle with their mental health will parent in a way that prevents them from being, to borrow a phrase from DW Winnicott, "good enough".
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15-05-2019, 22:37   #100
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The doc showed the babies sleeping in a separate room and there was no indication that the women were left alone with them. With this logic, anyone who has mental health difficulties are not safe to look after their children, which is not true.
It's not necessarily for the baby's safety (although for some mothers there might be an element of that alright) but also not to overwhelm the struggling mother who might reject the baby as a result. They need to develop a healthy bond in some very difficult circumstances so it all needs to be in balance. Keep them close but give them space and keep everyone safe.

There was a case in my own family when a woman experienced a traumatic birth, couldn't even look at the baby as a result; the father took care of the baby for months to help her recover and she did, but she never developed her bond with the child with some long lasting consequences for the family.
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15-05-2019, 22:41   #101
Musefan
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Originally Posted by Persepoly View Post
I agree with most of your post. In fact I even agree with the above to a point. However mothers who experience mental health difficulties *can create an adverse environment for their child. So while there will be no danger of death or physical harm, the emotional impact can be great.


*I use the word "can" because I'm not for one minute suggesting all mothers who struggle with their mental health will parent in a way that prevents them from being, to borrow a phrase from DW Winnicott, "good enough".
Hence why the treatment described in the documentary included infant mental health focused approaches whereby the mum was being trained in how to respond to her baby’s needs, in order to buffer against that emotional impact.
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15-05-2019, 22:45   #102
rainbow kirby
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I've had PND/A since the very traumatic birth of my second son in early February 2018. It's **** and I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. I haven't had any issues bonding with him but I had to stop breastfeeding earlier than I would have originally planned to so I could double my meds.

A certain percentage of men *do* have mental health issues following the birth of their children, it's not as high as the percentage of mothers with PND and it's obviously not hormone fuelled but it is a thing. My husband has struggled with anxiety after both births.

Haven't seen the documentary. A bit too close to home!
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15-05-2019, 22:48   #103
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Hence why the treatment described in the documentary included infant mental health focused approaches whereby the mum was being trained in how to respond to her baby’s needs, in order to buffer against that emotional impact.
That's really good. The "pre-verbal" state is gaining more and more importance in the medical world. We don't remember our first weeks and months but the impact lives on and is felt.
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15-05-2019, 23:00   #104
volchitsa
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Having read through the thread, I’d imagine he’s not the least bit bothered by it. It just seems to be a disingenuous attempt to point-score about “gender equality”

I haven’t seen the documentary but tbh I wouldn’t be too interested in watching it or having “conversations” about it. It’s just my own personal take on these types of documentaries but I think they exploit vulnerable people’s personal circumstances and are often more divisive than they are in any way supportive - in this particular case of women experiencing postpartum psychosis which is far more rare than postpartum depression.
Yes I pretty much agree with all of that (there's a first!) and I also find myself rather torn about these sorts of documentaries about very ill people in general. There are so many ways that participating in a programme like this can harm them, and very few ways in which it can help them - although I suppose the informational aspect of telling people that this exists may count in its favour. And Theroux, unlike Jeremy Kyle seems to manage to be humane about/toward the people he interviews. Still there's a voyeuristic element to it.

I was also struck by his need to reassure himself that all these women did actually love their children. That was a really significant point, IMO, about how ill-at-ease society is with mothers who fail to fit into our model of motherhood,and it was barely reflected on at all. Louis Theroux could accept that they were ill, which is progress compared to how such women were treated in the past of course, but he couldn't accept the woman's own assertion that she didn't feel any love for her baby son, and couldn't allow her to say so without contradicting her. It clearly troubled him too much to just listen.

Given some of the extremists he has interviewed without ever needing to "put them right" it's really striking that he needed to do so with her.
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16-05-2019, 08:08   #105
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If they suspect a woman is abusing drugs or alcohol they have a duty of care to report it to Túsla.
The woman will be more closely monitored during pregnancy and her ability to care for the child will be assessed after the child is born. Home checks & family interviews will be done.
She'll basically have social services on her back for the duration of her pregnancy, and after her child is born - its not like they don't act on it.
A false report like that could have serious consequences for a vulnerable woman in such a situation..
You're in cloud cuckoo land Susie. Take a walk around any of the less salubrious areas of Dublin for example and see for yourself the kids being dragged up by absolute wastes of space. Drunks, junkies, recidivist criminals and so on - pure wasters. The kids don't stand a chance, and social services are certainly not riding to their rescue!

There is zero possibility of anybody causing serious trouble for anyone else by merely saying they're overly fond of the drink or something like that.




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Its a system open to manipulation and abuse. A womans word should be enough, I think.
Because women are more trustworthy than men?
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