11 years learning Irish and can't speak it

Covieland · 12-09-2020 8:05pm #1

Watching the Leinster v Ulster game on tg4 and just realized after years being thought Irish I don't understand a full sentence there saying, would love to be able to speak/ understand it, is the teaching method not fit for purpose

The Mighty Quinn · 12-09-2020 8:11pm

Covieland wrote: »

Watching the Leinster v Ulster game on tg4 and just realized after years being thought Irish I don't understand a full sentence there saying, would love to be able to speak/ understand it, is the teaching method not fit for purpose

Majority of people now have 13/14 years of Irish classes, and have a few cursory phrases or basic understanding, yet many spend 5 years or even 3 years studying French or German and have a better handle on the language.

In my opinion its because Irish is taught as English, i.e., as a literary class rather than a language class. It focuses on plays, short stories, poetry, history of the language and all the other frills that go with it, with token nods to speaking the language.

If they're serious about people getting on board with Irish it should be taught to speak. Forget about reading dramas, or interpreting themes of Irish poems, teach it to promote conversation.

12-09-2020 8:22pm

The Mighty Quinn wrote: »

Majority of people now have 13/14 years of Irish classes, and have a few cursory phrases or basic understanding, yet many spend 5 years or even 3 years studying French or German and have a better handle on the language.

In my opinion its because Irish is taught as English, i.e., as a literary class rather than a language class. It focuses on plays, short stories, poetry, history of the language and all the other frills that go with it, with token nods to speaking the language.

If they're serious about people getting on board with Irish it should be taught to speak. Forget about reading dramas, or interpreting themes of Irish poems, teach it to promote conversation.

I did 14 years of Irish and 6 years of French. I was speaking to a French person earlier today and they said my French was very good, despite only getting a C in pass in the Leaving, nearly 20 years ago.

With Irish I'm stumped after Conas a ta tu?

You're absolutely right though, its taught as though we're all fluent in it already. Learning the mo chonilac from age 8, (and i not knowing no focail at all).

I'd arrive back to school in September after three months of not uttering a word of irish and feel like I'd forgotten it all.

appledrop · 12-09-2020 8:28pm

The Mighty Quinn wrote: »

Majority of people now have 13/14 years of Irish classes, and have a few cursory phrases or basic understanding, yet many spend 5 years or even 3 years studying French or German and have a better handle on the language.

In my opinion its because Irish is taught as English, i.e., as a literary class rather than a language class. It focuses on plays, short stories, poetry, history of the language and all the other frills that go with it, with token nods to speaking the language.

If they're serious about people getting on board with Irish it should be taught to speak. Forget about reading dramas, or interpreting themes of Irish poems, teach it to promote conversation.

Your spot on. In secondary school in Irish reading all these boring poems + short stories + sending postcards from Gaelteacht. In contrast in French actually learning how to speak language, what to say if you went on holiday there, watching modern films.

My Irish is shocking, yet I managed higher level French no problem.

Maybe they have improved curriculum now but I doubt it.

jlm29 · 12-09-2020 9:42pm

I did higher level German and Irish for LC and the only thing I could go now In German is give someone directions to whatever is straight up the road from here and take the first street on the right. But I can happily hold a conversation in Irish and Though I’d get stuck on some words, I’d figure out how to get my point across with some other words.

I always put my strong oral Irish down to having gone to the Gaeltacht twice in secondary school. My kids go to a Gaelscoil now, and I don’t think the staff speak any English at all to them for the first few months to totally immerse them. I’m torn between thinking it’s cruel and thinking it’s very effective.

o1s1n · 12-09-2020 9:48pm

You also have to remember though that Irish and Celtic languages are in a world of their own when it comes to their structure and how they work. You can't 'borrow' from English really for example.

English/German/French/Spanish/Dutch all share a hell of a lot more in common and are far easier to go from one to the other/fill in gaps.

I always thought I was 'crap at learning languages' because my Irish wasn't great, I then learned German from 1st to 6th year and picked a lot up.

Went on to learn some Afrikaans and found that very manageable because of a lot of links to German. Had a bit of an epiphany when I then realised there are so many links between a lot of languages, Irish just is fairly unique and on it's own.

bobbyy gee · 12-09-2020 9:52pm

Irish
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-20439124.html

byhookorbycrook · 13-09-2020 7:02pm

When I first moved to the east of the country , parents of my classes told me that their child hated Irish . Within a month , they “ loved Irish .” How ? We did art/PE through Irish, huge amounts of drama/songs and poems . Once the parents’ attitudes changed , it became even easier .
I work in. Gaelscoil now , it’s incredible to see how the youngest children acquire the language with no “ hang ups .”

14-09-2020 11:44am

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

When I first moved to the east of the country , parents of my classes told me that their child hated Irish . Within a month , they “ loved Irish .” How ? We did art/PE through Irish, huge amounts of drama/songs and poems . Once the parents’ attitudes changed , it became even easier .
I work in. Gaelscoil now , it’s incredible to see how the youngest children acquire the language with no “ hang ups .”

Well of course the youngest children acquire it with no hang ups, they've not had time to develop hang ups.

Most people were taught Irish in a way that made them hate it. In my primary school we did at least 3 hours of irish a day. Some days it was irish all day. We rarely did art. One year my mother refused to buy the nature book for the new year because we had only gotten through a quarter of the previous years one.

I was delighted when I went to secondary school and we got our lesson plan to find we only had 5 40 minute lessons of Irish a week. That was less per week than we had done some days in Primary.

floydstapleton · 06-10-2020 10:33pm

yes

Hello 2D Person Below · 06-10-2020 10:35pm

The Mighty Quinn wrote: »

Majority of people now have 13/14 years of Irish classes, and have a few cursory phrases or basic understanding, yet many spend 5 years or even 3 years studying French or German and have a better handle on the language.

In my opinion its because Irish is taught as English, i.e., as a literary class rather than a language class. It focuses on plays, short stories, poetry, history of the language and all the other frills that go with it, with token nods to speaking the language.

If they're serious about people getting on board with Irish it should be taught to speak. Forget about reading dramas, or interpreting themes of Irish poems, teach it to promote conversation.

100% spot on.

Truthvader · 06-10-2020 10:44pm

Reality is that it is a dead language used only by the odd nutter in the Revenue or Sinn Fein to annoy the Prods. No reality to speaking it in normal life. If you are interested you need to go to Inis Oirr where you can immerse in a language holiday but even there you have to make the running as most people default to English.

byhookorbycrook · 07-10-2020 6:18pm

Truthvader wrote: »

Reality is that it is a dead language used only by the odd nutter in the Revenue or Sinn Fein to annoy the Prods. No reality to speaking it in normal life. If you are interested you need to go to Inis Oirr where you can immerse in a language holiday but even there you have to make the running as most people default to English.

That may the reality you perceive, but it is not the truth. There are several Gaelacht regions where is is widely spoken.

Our town has several Naíonra, an all-Irish primary, secondary and after schools child minding service all through Irish.Many of the children our school has now are chosen by past pupils for their own children who speak Irish to them outside of the school setting some of the time.And no, we are not "elitist" we have children from a wide range of backgrounds and nationalities .

There are social occasions where people in the community come together to speak Irish, again across different backgrounds. There are Irish courses run for beginners to advanced. Our local radio broadcasts a show in Irish each week and there's an Irish language page in the local newspaper.

Plenty social media activity across the various platforms including boards and TG4 attracts lots of viewers, like the OP, for whatever reason.

Truthvader · 08-10-2020 12:42am

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

That may the reality you perceive, but it is not the truth. There are several Gaelacht regions where is is widely spoken.

Our town has several Naíonra, an all-Irish primary, secondary and after schools child minding service all through Irish.Many of the children our school has now are chosen by past pupils for their own children who speak Irish to them outside of the school setting some of the time.And no, we are not "elitist" we have children from a wide range of backgrounds and nationalities .

There are social occasions where people in the community come together to speak Irish, again across different backgrounds. There are Irish courses run for beginners to advanced. Our local radio broadcasts a show in Irish each week and there's an Irish language page in the local newspaper.

Plenty social media activity across the various platforms including boards and TG4 attracts lots of viewers, like the OP, for whatever reason.

Accept all this.There are people interested in it but it is a "club" activity no more than birdwatching or cycling. Try importing your special interest into real life and people just think you are a nutter. And I am a regular visitor to Inis Oirr as a family member is very interested in the Irish language. Non committal myself and can take it or leave it but either way the language is dead

byhookorbycrook · 09-10-2020 8:49am

If a language is being spoken outside of educational settings , then it is not dead.

morebabies · 09-10-2020 9:01am

o1s1n wrote: »

You also have to remember though that Irish and Celtic languages are in a world of their own when it comes to their structure and how they work. You can't 'borrow' from English really for example.

English/German/French/Spanish/Dutch all share a hell of a lot more in common and are far easier to go from one to the other/fill in gaps.

I always thought I was 'crap at learning languages' because my Irish wasn't great, I then learned German from 1st to 6th year and picked a lot up.

Went on to learn some Afrikaans and found that very manageable because of a lot of links to German. Had a bit of an epiphany when I then realised there are so many links between a lot of languages, Irish just is fairly unique and on it's own.

I'd agree with this, I'm from England, fluent in French and Spanish and decided to try an intensive Irish course during lockdown so I'd be able to help my kids, using very heavy grammar books by Nancy Stenson and Micheál ó Siadhail... That's the only way I can learn languages. I was very dedicated with it for a few months but yes, I could not get my head around the rules at all, the spelling changes, etc. And here I am a few months later and I've forgotten everything I tried to learn. It's a really difficult language.

gozunda · 09-10-2020 9:06am

I'd agree the teaching of Irish in Primary and Secondary schools in the past was woeful.

I remember my first Irish classes in primary where we were introduced to the antics of Mamai agus Dadai. Mamai was permanently in the kitchen baking 'cacai' and Dadai was always away 'ag obair'. I believe there was a Sean who always eating 'milsean' but for the life of me I cant remember his sister but I think her diet was also fairly crap.

We repeated these sentences like the rosary until they were drilled into your head...

This was all taught with the aid of cutout type figures which could be stuck to a board and we're all slanted at 70 degrees to the perpendicular. The kitchen cupboard was one of these 1950s/1960s type piece of furniture with the drop down front. After that I dont have a clue tbh ...

09-10-2020 9:12am

morebabies wrote: »

I'd agree with this, I'm from England, fluent in French and Spanish and decided to try an intensive Irish course during lockdown so I'd be able to help my kids, using very heavy grammar books by Nancy Stenson and Micheál ó Siadhail... That's the only way I can learn languages. I was very dedicated with it for a few months but yes, I could not get my head around the rules at all, the spelling changes, etc. And here I am a few months later and I've forgotten everything I tried to learn. It's a really difficult language.

It has got cases and genders like German which only made sense to me once I learnt them in German. I'd be sitting in German classes wondering why the f*ck this stuff was never properly taught to me in Irish.
I wasted my entire school life being taught Irish badly. I left school with better French and will happily look at French youtube videos or movies. I learnt German afterward.
Moving between years in school where you teacher might be from Connaught or Munster or Ulster or just had enough Irish to be allowed teach it didn't help either.

Irish is just badly taught and why wouldn't it be? The Teachers and staff in the Dept. of Education get paid irrespective of whether you leave School fluent or not.

BTW My mother was a primary school teacher with fluent Irish but somehow none of us in the family can speak Irish at all because our only exposure to Irish was in the class.

Truthvader · 09-10-2020 9:14am

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

If a language is being spoken outside of educational settings , then it is not dead.

So its dead then

whisky_galore · 09-10-2020 9:23am

Truthvader wrote: »

So its dead then

Hanging by a thread in some isolated areas, as good as dead everywhere else.
In the main it's simply a hobby language or an educational tool.

Most people have a language which they use everyday to conduct their business, they would struggle using Irish to do likewise.

PMBC · 09-10-2020 9:25am

Covieland wrote: »

Watching the Leinster v Ulster game on tg4 and just realized after years being thought Irish I don't understand a full sentence there saying, would love to be able to speak/ understand it, is the teaching method not fit for purpose

Some of the commentators are difficult to understand eg Eoin O Neachtain who Id guess is from Connemara and also speaks very fast - beautiful Irish. As you can guess Im an admirer of the language but struggled with it in school but got an hon in the LC. I palled with an Irish speaking family and picked up a lot of common or garden Irish that way.
Lots of posters have identified the problems - too much literature and grammar and not enough of learning to speak -. even if the grammar is bad. The only way the teaching philospohy/Dept of Education will change is if people demand change.
i still have memories of An tOileanach and M'Asal Beag Dubh

landofthetree · 09-10-2020 9:30am

Students who attend Irish-speaking post-primary schools and grind schools fare less well in college than students in the same year and course with the same CAO points from a typical secondary school.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/irish-news/education/pupils-from-irish-speaking-and-grind-schools-less-likely-to-finish-college-39222897.html

Snickers Man · 09-10-2020 11:56am

The Mighty Quinn wrote: »

If they're serious about people getting on board with Irish it should be taught to speak. Forget about reading dramas, or interpreting themes of Irish poems, teach it to promote conversation.

This is absolutely right. And I would suggest that as a matter of priority, we have to decide on an Irish equivalent for the phrase "F*k off!"

Think about it: you send your teenager to France or Spain or Germany or wherever on an exchange a year or so before their Leaving to improve their chances in the local language and what phrases can you GUARANTEE they will come back saying?
Sh***
Bastard
F*** off.

What fluent passages of Irish can you be sure we all remember from our days in school?
The National Anthem "Sinne Fianna Fáil...."
The Lord's Prayer "Ar n-athair atá ar neamh..."
Can I go to the jacks, sir? "An bhfuil cead agam dul go dtí an leithreas?"

Another thing we need to do is try to ensure that the language becomes a means of communication and not of exclusion. That means the Gaelgeors themselves need to drop their sniffiness to "code switching" between the various pronunciation differentials that exist between the differing versions of the language and at least TRY to understand each other.

I know it's difficult for someone from Munster to accept that Toor dum do lawve is pronounced as Tore doo do Law woo by someone from Ulster but you have to come to a mutually intelligible understanding guys. Otherwise the language will just die off completely, with Gaelgeors sitting around smugly satisfied that they know what they're saying even if nobody else does.

Snickers Man · 09-10-2020 1:06pm

Covieland wrote: »

Watching the Leinster v Ulster game on tg4 and just realized after years being thought Irish I don't understand a full sentence there saying, would love to be able to speak/ understand it, is the teaching method not fit for purpose

Might help if you were equipped with some of the basic vocabulary concerning the game. Apologies if these are not all spelled correctly; I'm inferring them from the pronounciation.

Síne amach = linout
Cliobbard = scrum
Greámú = tackle
Uad = try

That's just off the top of my head. There's bound to be other essential terms that I can't think of. Anybody?

11 years learning Irish and can't speak it

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