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No public enquiry in Pat Finucane Murder

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  • Registered Users Posts: 24,211 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    downcow wrote: »
    Should public inquiries be held into the TDs in the dail who arranged the sectarian murder of Protestants?
    If not, why not?

    Who are you referring to and with what evidence?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,336 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    Along with my last, 'it's telling', I'd also like to bring attention to how few people seem to know what a Public Inquiry actually is.

    A public inquiry is specifically a review of government activity. Pointing out various IRA activity and complaining about unfairness regarding public inquiries fundamentally misunderstands what one actually is.

    Gardai collusion with the IRA would be subject to public inquiry (for example the Smithwick Tribunal). The Omagh bombing, as absolutely tragic as it was, would not.

    Downcow's references to Martin McGuinness (who I see after historically insisting on spelling his name wrong, has now moved on to insinuation instead), should he have been colluding with the British government, as Downcow is implying, absolutely should be subject to a public inquiry....into the actions of the British Government, because that's how they work.


  • Registered Users Posts: 66,290 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Fionn1952 wrote: »
    Along with my last, 'it's telling', I'd also like to bring attention to how few people seem to know what a Public Inquiry actually is.

    A public inquiry is specifically a review of government activity. Pointing out various IRA activity and complaining about unfairness regarding public inquiries fundamentally misunderstands what one actually is.

    Gardai collusion with the IRA would be subject to public inquiry (for example the Smithwick Tribunal). The Omagh bombing, as absolutely tragic as it was, would not.

    Downcow's references to Martin McGuinness (who I see after historically insisting on spelling his name wrong, has now moved on to insinuation instead), should he have been colluding with the British government, as Downcow is implying, absolutely should be subject to a public inquiry....into the actions of the British Government, because that's how they work.

    I've explained it 3 times. And it hasn't worked. Best of luck.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,934 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    This was your question:



    I said there have been 'several' inquiries into his activities.

    There will be no 'public inquiries' into a killing unless there is a suggestion/allegation of STATE involvement in it, or state incompetence. Wish you could take that on board.

    If state agents are involved , is that STATE involvement?


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,934 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    He could still have told journalists at the time - but he didn't. The allegation is clearly lurid - Loyalists carried out massacres with gun attacks in pubs and car bombs but attacking schools when there were staff and pupils present wasn't their modus operandi and it wasn't British intelligence's modus operandi either.

    No. I agree. The nearest thing to going into schools shooting and murdering, is when republicans ran into a wee church shooting and murdering


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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,934 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    lawred2 wrote: »
    Who are you referring to and with what evidence?

    The boyo who denies ever being in the ira.

    He’d be some crack at a truth commission


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,211 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    downcow wrote: »
    The boyo who denies ever being in the ira.

    He’d be some crack at a truth commission

    Firstly, he's not in the Dail.

    Secondly, whataboutery. Not sure what purpose it serves.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,934 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    lawred2 wrote: »
    Firstly, he's not in the Dail.

    Secondly, whataboutery. Not sure what purpose it serves.

    Apologies. I thought he was.
    It’s not whataboutery. It’s calling out hypocrisy.


  • Registered Users Posts: 66,290 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    downcow wrote: »
    If state agents are involved , is that STATE involvement?

    Absolutely. The state or it's agencies or agents.

    Sitting on a barstool muttering this won't bring a public inquiry. You will need the weight of some evidence and a long campaign...you know what the British have been like.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,934 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Absolutely. The state or it's agencies or agents.

    Sitting on a barstool muttering this won't bring a public inquiry. You will need the weight of some evidence and a long campaign...you know what the British have been like.

    I have zero interest in enquiries. The sectarian murder campaign took place between 50 & 25 years ago. It’s gone. Republicans lost. Senior ira members are now politicians delivering British rule. The will of the NI people for self determination is agreed by all.
    It is tragic that so many had to die on all sides for the ira to learn that NI is british and the majority of the people want it that way and won’t be bombed and murdered out of it.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 66,290 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    downcow wrote: »
    I have zero interest in enquiries. The sectarian murder campaign took place between 50 & 25 years ago. It’s gone. Republicans lost. Senior ira members are now politicians delivering British rule. The will of the NI people for self determination is agreed by all.
    It is tragic that so many had to die on all sides for the ira to learn that NI is british and the majority of the people want it that way and won’t be bombed and murdered out of it.

    That's great for you, that you've put it all behind you.

    For democrats, it's important that the state be held to account if they were engaged in murder. A bit like the importance of hunting down the Nazi's. Time doesn't matter.

    P.S. before people climb up the outrage pole, I am not comparing the British here to the Nazi's, rather I am comparing the importance of the principle of holding a state to account for wrongdoing.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,023 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    That's great for you, that you've put it all behind you.

    For democrats, it's important that the state be held to account if they were engaged in murder. A bit like the importance of hunting down the Nazi's. Time doesn't matter.

    P.S. before people climb up the outrage pole, I am not comparing the British here to the Nazi's, rather I am comparing the importance of the principle of holding a state to account for wrongdoing.

    Anyone who supported the IRA was by definition not a democrat, so we should ignore their calls.

    The government down here have been measured and clear in their response. Kudos to them.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 214 ✭✭Ireland2020


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Anyone who supported the IRA was by definition not a democrat, so we should ignore their calls.

    The government down here have been measured and clear in their response. Kudos to them.

    eh was Micheal Collins not in the IRA (a Fine Gael hero)

    The Govt down here have been very clear in their reponse, Up the Brits and **** the student nurses


  • Registered Users Posts: 66,290 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Anyone who supported the IRA was by definition not a democrat, so we should ignore their calls.

    The government down here have been measured and clear in their response. Kudos to them.

    I never 'supported' the IRA blanch. And it wouldn't matter if I did, this is an important fundamental principle at stake here.

    You reap what you sow as they say, if you are not full square behind finding out the truth of this and any involvement of the state in collusion and killing.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,023 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    I never 'supported' the IRA blanch. And it wouldn't matter if I did, this is an important fundamental principle at stake here.

    You reap what you sow as they say, if you are not full square behind finding out the truth of this and any involvement of the state in collusion and killing.

    Being full square behind finding out the truth of this incident is not incompatible with me being nauseated at the hypocritical approach of Sinn Fein to this issue.


  • Registered Users Posts: 66,290 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Being full square behind finding out the truth of this incident is not incompatible with me being nauseated at the hypocritical approach of Sinn Fein to this issue.

    Yes, I noticed all the threads you opened and your critical comments on this case over the years. And your general attitude to whistleblowers seeking to hold governments to account.

    Yes indeed.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,934 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    I never 'supported' the IRA blanch. And it wouldn't matter if I did, this is an important fundamental principle at stake here.

    You reap what you sow as they say, if you are not full square behind finding out the truth of this and any involvement of the state in collusion and killing.

    Do you accept that there was collusion between the Irish state and the IRA?
    Do you accept there was collusion between the British state at the IRA?


  • Registered Users Posts: 66,290 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    downcow wrote: »
    Do you accept that there was collusion between the Irish state and the IRA?


    Do you accept there was collusion between the British state at the IRA?

    Of course there was collusion between the Irish State and the IRA, the Smithwick Tribunal found that some Gardai had colluded with the IRA. The Arms Trial etc.

    We don't know the extent of British collusion with any side. If the were we need to know about it. Let the truth fall where it may.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,928 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    He could still have told journalists at the time - but he didn't. The allegation is clearly lurid - Loyalists carried out massacres with gun attacks in pubs and car bombs but attacking schools when there were staff and pupils present wasn't their modus operandi and it wasn't British intelligence's modus operandi either.


    there is nothing to show the allegation is false, in fact there have been a few individuals who have testified to the existence of the plan, so i would well believe it was true, and given the behaviour of the british in relation to the empire, it's a reasonable belief that it was a live plan.
    attacking schools was standard tactics in the empire and was British intelligence's modus operandi during it's existence.

    shut down alcohol action ireland now! end MUP today!



  • Registered Users Posts: 54,495 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    there is nothing to show the allegation is false, in fact there have been a few individuals who have testified to the existence of the plan, so i would well believe it was true, and given the behaviour of the british in relation to the empire, it's a reasonable belieef that it was a live plan.
    attacking schools was standard tactics in the empire and was British intelligence's modus operandi during it's existence.

    I think you more want it to be true...


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  • Registered Users Posts: 28,928 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    downcow wrote: »
    I have zero interest in enquiries. The sectarian murder campaign took place between 50 & 25 years ago. It’s gone. Republicans lost. Senior ira members are now politicians delivering British rule. The will of the NI people for self determination is agreed by all.
    It is tragic that so many had to die on all sides for the ira to learn that NI is british and the majority of the people want it that way and won’t be bombed and murdered out of it.


    republicans didn't lose, in fact they got everything they looked for bar a UI straight away, and it will be the people who will decide whether it happens or not, and not the british government which would have been the case had it not been for all of the issues coming to a head.
    northern ireland is british in name only, britain doesn't give a damn about it, it doesn't invest in it and it just keeps the lights on.
    the only reason britain partitioned the island was to cause devision and to keep hold of belfast which was at the time a very strategically important city for britain unlike the others, and of course it needed some workers to service it, and they were already coming from all of the 6 counties.
    blanch152 wrote: »
    Anyone who supported the IRA was by definition not a democrat, so we should ignore their calls.

    The government down here have been measured and clear in their response. Kudos to them.


    in that case we should definitely ignore any calls by those who supported the loyalists, RUC and BA who were intent on propping up an undemocratic regime and who were definitely not democrats unlike the IRA who were fighting for democracy.
    the government's response down here is fo-outrage over a factual statement, fo-outrage designed to try and slur sf.
    it won't work, plenty of us have spoken and will speak again by voting for sf in the next election.

    shut down alcohol action ireland now! end MUP today!



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,928 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    walshb wrote: »
    I think you more want it to be true...


    and why exactly would i want it to be true that the british planned to send loyalists to slaughter children and their teachers in a school with the ultimate aim of trying to cause an all out civil war such that the british army would be sent in full force to in all likely hood wipe out the nationalist community of northern ireland?
    yes, it would ultimately bring it home and show the world what the british were really like in terms of upholding the empire, but that would not be a justification to want it, as there would be no justification for me to support it or want it to be true.

    shut down alcohol action ireland now! end MUP today!



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,934 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    republicans didn't lose, in fact they got everything they looked for bar a UI straight away, and it will be the people who will decide whether it happens or not, and not the british government which would have been the case had it not been for all of the issues coming to a head.
    northern ireland is british in name only, britain doesn't give a damn about it, it doesn't invest in it and it just keeps the lights on.
    the only reason britain partitioned the island was to cause devision and to keep hold of belfast which was at the time a very strategically important city for britain unlike the others, and of course it needed some workers to service it, and they were already coming from all of the 6 counties.
    .

    What dillusional planet are you on. Republicans got nothing except some self serving stuff like their prisoners released.

    You say the got an agreement for the people to decide. Unionists always knew since the 1920s that if there was ever a majority in ni who want to join the neighbouring country then it would happen.
    So tell me concisely what the ira got from the gfa
    It was a white flag surrender With their prisoners released and Armani suits and seats in British government at Stormont for MMcG and Gerry and friends.


  • Registered Users Posts: 66,290 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    downcow wrote: »
    What dillusional planet are you on. Republicans got nothing except some self serving stuff like their prisoners released.

    You say the got an agreement for the people to decide. Unionists always knew since the 1920s that if there was ever a majority in ni who want to join the neighbouring country then it would happen.
    So tell me concisely what the ira got from the gfa
    It was a white flag surrender With their prisoners released and Armani suits and seats in British government at Stormont for MMcG and Gerry and friends.

    They got an equal share of the power and Britain can't cough about NI without consulting with Dublin. Nor do anything that breaks the GFA (see the last 4 years)


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,934 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    They got an equal share of the power and Britain can't cough about NI without consulting with Dublin. Nor do anything that breaks the GFA (see the last 4 years)

    If you are happy with the gfa and believe that then the hoodwink is complete. I never thought they would get away with it but fair play to them. Even Francie is happy


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,336 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    downcow wrote: »
    If you are happy with the gfa and believe that then the hoodwink is complete. I never thought they would get away with it but fair play to them. Even Francie is happy

    Jesus, Downcow.....the GFA was mutually beneficial. The beauty of it was that everyone can look at it as a win. Most significantly, it led to a ceasefire. You always have to be so adversarial, it always has to be about who, 'won'. The insecurity is hanging out of you.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,934 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Fionn1952 wrote: »
    Jesus, Downcow.....the GFA was mutually beneficial. The beauty of it was that everyone can look at it as a win. Most significantly, it led to a ceasefire. You always have to be so adversarial, it always has to be about who, 'won'. The insecurity is hanging out of you.

    You are some crack. You didn’t feel the need to challenge the post I was replying to
    “in fact they got everything they looked for bar a UI straight away, and it will be the people who will decide whether it happens or not, and not the british government which would have been the case had it not been for all of the issues coming to a head.
    northern ireland is british in name only”

    The prejudice is hanging out of you.

    ....and I simply stated the fact. The gfa says ni is british until a majority of the people decide otherwise. When was that not the case?


  • Registered Users Posts: 570 ✭✭✭Fuascailteoir


    downcow wrote: »
    What dillusional planet are you on. Republicans got nothing except some self serving stuff like their prisoners released.

    You say the got an agreement for the people to decide. Unionists always knew since the 1920s that if there was ever a majority in ni who want to join the neighbouring country then it would happen.
    So tell me concisely what the ira got from the gfa
    It was a white flag surrender With their prisoners released and Armani suits and seats in British government at Stormont for MMcG and Gerry and friends.

    The unionists and British have to look at what sort of a statelet they created from 1921 to 1998. For the first half century they created a sectarian cesspit that's should be a source of enormous regret and embarrassment. The next 30 years were a product of that environment


  • Registered Users Posts: 66,290 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    downcow wrote: »
    You are some crack. You didn’t feel the need to challenge the post I was replying to
    “in fact they got everything they looked for bar a UI straight away, and it will be the people who will decide whether it happens or not, and not the british government which would have been the case had it not been for all of the issues coming to a head.
    northern ireland is british in name only”

    The prejudice is hanging out of you.

    ....and I simply stated the fact. The gfa says ni is british until a majority of the people decide otherwise. When was that not the case?

    Not quite what the GFA says downcow.

    It says that those who sign up to it agree to allow the majority decide whether to stay in the UK or to join a UI.

    Northern Ireland was never 'British' because it isn't in Britain. There are people there who chose to identify as British though.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 28,928 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    downcow wrote: »
    What dillusional planet are you on. Republicans got nothing except some self serving stuff like their prisoners released.

    You say the got an agreement for the people to decide. Unionists always knew since the 1920s that if there was ever a majority in ni who want to join the neighbouring country then it would happen.
    So tell me concisely what the ira got from the gfa
    It was a white flag surrender With their prisoners released and Armani suits and seats in British government at Stormont for MMcG and Gerry and friends.


    i'm on planet real politique.
    forced the might of the british army to a stailmate, brought the curtain down on europe's most sectarian apartheid statelet, yes got some of their prisoners out on early release, the people will decide the future of northern ireland instead of the british government who would have originally decided.
    they got nothing alright.
    actually no, in reality nobody knew for sure up until the GFA that if the majority wanted to join with the ROI they would have been able to do so.
    some people guessed that would be the case, and really after WWII and belfast declined as an industrial city, it would have been a reasonable guess, but the opposite would have been a reasonable guess also given britain had a history of not letting go of empire territory lightly.
    but while belfast remained strategically important to britain, not a chance would any such vote have been accepted had it been to join the ROI.
    a surrender it was not, it is believed that there was enough weaponry there to keep the conflict going for at least 5 to 10 years, had it gone on that long, britain would have been in a critical situation where they would have to make a decision between pulling out altogether, keeping their presence in afghanistan, or going to war in iraq.
    they would not have been able to sustain all 3 conflicts, and they would have been expected by america to help out in iraq and afghanistan.
    stormont is essentially home rule with britain paying the bills while sf can work across ireland, by rights they should be able to be an all ireland party and take their seats in westminster as well given the circumstances of northern ireland, but i may be in a minority in that view, all though i do think sf causing ruptions in westminster would be very helpful.

    shut down alcohol action ireland now! end MUP today!



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