Apprenticeship rates are just depressing

Sonics2k · 20-09-2020 7:09pm #1

So, I'm currently looking at a career change. I've done a lot of management and sales work, but it's never made me happy and far too often the companies make cuts and job losses kick in.

With that in mind I thought long and hard and thought I'd check out doing a mechanics apprenticeship (at the age of 36). However, with Cork County Council announcing they're now hiring, I decided to check it out and read their information.

Link here

Year 1: €234.12 per week
Year 2: €341.19 per week
Year 3: €483.96 per week
Year 4: €582.66 per week

So after 4 years, you're finishing up on €23,000 p/a. Sure you can argue it's a trade, but how far can it really go. I'm hardly surprised that a lot of younger lads aren't bothering with trades anymore, it's a lot of back breaking work for sod all pay.

Sure, €23k a year is decent when you're 20 years old, but what about when you're 30 or 40 or 50 years old? Surely the pay won't get much better, how are you expected to start a family or even consider buying a home?

Montage of Feck · 20-09-2020 7:11pm

After four years in college you'd be in debt, think of it as earning as your learning.

BrianBoru00 · 20-09-2020 7:12pm

Permanent
Pensionable.
Its 29000, not 23000.
You ll have a qualification and can do bits on the side and make another 10-20000 handy by that stage of you build your business up gradually over that time

17larsson · 20-09-2020 7:15pm

When you're qualified (as an electrician anyway), if you get the union rate you would be on €48k per year. That's before any overtime or travel money.

You also get a lot more money in those four years than you do at college

Green farmer · 20-09-2020 7:21pm

Year 4 is just over 30k a year. Not bad if you've a qualification that you can take elsewhere. Compare that to going back to college and earing zero for the same time frame

Sonics2k · 20-09-2020 7:24pm

Oh folks, please don't misunderstand me. I get that down the line the prospects are much better.

I'm just stating that the entry level pay for the position is very low. Just €30 more than the social welfare payment, and it's easy to understand why a lot of young people end up not doing a trade.

Bubbaclaus · 20-09-2020 7:24pm

Am I missing something with the 23k? 582.66 per week is 30,300 per year.

Interested Observer · 20-09-2020 7:33pm

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

Am I missing something with the 23k? 582.66 per week is 30,300 per year.

Yeah, no idea where they're getting 23k from.

Sonics2k wrote: »

Oh folks, please don't misunderstand me. I get that down the line the prospects are much better.

I'm just stating that the entry level pay for the position is very low. Just €30 more than the social welfare payment, and it's easy to understand why a lot of young people end up not doing a trade.

Going in with zero experience or qualifications I don't know what you can expect. It ramps up quickly enough imo.

bobbyy gee · 20-09-2020 7:37pm

in a few years it will be a dead trade you will need computer degree as most cars are run by computers and soon with electrical cars
very little repairs as there are no engines to go wrong

now if you buy a Japanese or korean car don't expect apart from Nissan or Mazda
to have to do any repairs for 5 years
toyota.honda.hyundai

if you study electric cars you will be ok

micks · 20-09-2020 7:40pm

Sonics2k wrote: »

Oh folks, please don't misunderstand me. I get that down the line the prospects are much better.

I'm just stating that the entry level pay for the position is very low. Just €30 more than the social welfare payment, and it's easy to understand why a lot of young people end up not doing a trade.

while there are some older apprentices the vast majority are under 20 when they start so its a lot more than an 18 yo gets on the dole

dont know where 23k from but its after 3 years not 4 that 4th yr commences and in your example you get ~30k
Then most likely ~20-25 % rise for full rate

There's also likely expenses on top of that - maybe do more research

eurokev · 20-09-2020 7:44pm

I don't know what you are complaining about. You're getting paid to learn

I went to college out of school, cost a lot - I didn't finish it, it wasn't for me.

Finished up an apprenticeship about 18months ago at 33. Love the work, earning great money now.

Sure the first 18-24months were hard, but I saved up 15k to get me through the low pay period, so I could afford to keep up with my mortgage, and renting away when in block release. But 3rd and 4th year as an apprentice weren't bad, and most employers will give you a bit of OT to help you out.

mariaalice · 20-09-2020 8:11pm

Do what lots of young people doing an apprentice do, take a part-time job delivering pizzas until they get to the stage of doing some nixers.

If that is an apprenticeship with the council hundreds will be applying for it.

El Tarangu · 20-09-2020 8:13pm

If you were going back to college, instead of doing an apprenticeship, you wouldn't get paid anything.

Many people who study work a part-time job - this could keep you going. It's only for a few years, after all.

eurokev · 20-09-2020 8:30pm

micks wrote: »

while there are some older apprentices the vast majority are under 20 when they start so its a lot more than an 18 yo gets on the dole

dont know where 23k from but its after 3 years not 4 that 4th yr commences and in your example you get ~30k
Then most likely ~20-25 % rise for full rate

There's also likely expenses on top of that - maybe do more research

In my class of 12 going through my apprenticeship, 8 of us were 28 or over on completion.

I can't emphasise enough the doors and opportunities a good apprenticeship opens up. It's far better than 95% of college courses imo.

The short term pain of low pay is soon forgotten, and more and more "mature" people are realising this.

Sonics2k · 20-09-2020 8:30pm

Oh damn, that was a brainfart in the OP. Knew it was €29k but spaced it like a doofus.

I understand the points people are making, and personally I'd be willing to make the sacrifice for a few years. All I'm saying is the entry level rates are very low compared to other work.

Absolutely we can rightly say there's a good qualification at the end of it, but for a lot of younger people they simply can't afford to try and live on that much, when places like Centra or Aldi are paying much more.

[Deleted User] · 20-09-2020 8:38pm

Sonics2k wrote: »

Absolutely we can rightly say there's a good qualification at the end of it, but for a lot of younger people they simply can't afford to try and live on that much, when places like Centra or Aldi are paying much more.

So? If someone is interested in getting a trade but a couple of years at low pay while training is enough to make them give up on it and work in Aldi then bully for them and all the best to them.
Outisde Dublin obviously but with 2 level 8s and some professional qualifications in a high-demand sector it took another couple of years for me to be on more than someone in year 4 of your example would be making.

shesty · 20-09-2020 8:39pm

I took an "Analyst" position in a public sector body back in 2011 when there was nothing else to do.Starting salary, 29k a year.I needed to have a engineering, financial or law degree to get the job.I had to take it because the ecomony was shot and I was unemployed a year at that stage.

A relative is in a similar position - qualified pharmacist, in a PS body, with 4 years experience behind her, starting salary 30k.Left a job earning 50k a year to take it, to get different exprience and move more towards a role she wanted.

You need to take the long term view.Centra or wherever might be good now, but in 10, 20 years, it won't be much use.Apprenticeship gives you training, something to put on your CV and potentially further training opportunities to push yourself into other roles.Also, does the job come with an incremental scale??Something to check.You will have a permanent job and a good pension, mightn't seem like much now but it is something that no money can buy when things are bad, and as you get older.

There may not be many doing apprenticeships,but the flip side of that is that maybe not enough people who might be interested in apprenticeships understand that the long term view is more important than getting higher cash in hand straight away.

smelly sock · 20-09-2020 8:41pm

Difference going to college is youcan be out on the piss every night for 3 or 4 years and Mammy and Daddy pay for it. If your an apprentice you have to put up serious ****e.

El Tarangu · 20-09-2020 8:43pm

Sonics2k wrote: »

I understand the points people are making, and personally I'd be willing to make the sacrifice for a few years. All I'm saying is the entry level rates are very low compared to other work.

It's not "work" - you're being paid to train. If you decided to go back to study to be an engineer or a doctor, you wouldn't get paid anything.

smellyoldboot · 20-09-2020 8:43pm

Sonics2k wrote: »

So, I'm currently looking at a career change. I've done a lot of management and sales work, but it's never made me happy and far too often the companies make cuts and job losses kick in.

With that in mind I thought long and hard and thought I'd check out doing a mechanics apprenticeship (at the age of 36). However, with Cork County Council announcing they're now hiring, I decided to check it out and read their information.

Link here

So after 4 years, you're finishing up on €23,000 p/a. Sure you can argue it's a trade, but how far can it really go. I'm hardly surprised that a lot of younger lads aren't bothering with trades anymore, it's a lot of back breaking work for sod all pay.

Sure, €23k a year is decent when you're 20 years old, but what about when you're 30 or 40 or 50 years old? Surely the pay won't get much better, how are you expected to start a family or even consider buying a home?

Earning while you're learning. Go to college and get grant money if you're lucky for 4 years and start in the same roughly 30k with nothing in between. And sparks and plumbers that are any use are on far far more than that after 4 years. Id suggest a bad attitude rather than anything wrong with the rates. You gotta learn to walk first.

Outkast_IRE · 20-09-2020 8:51pm

I completed my apprenticeship in plumbing and yeah the rates are tough for 1st and 2nd year but you are really only learning the basics at that stage . I would strongly argue that even after 4 years the majority of lads have alot to learn and just cause you finish your apprenticeship doesn't mean you are brilliant at your trade at the end of it.

The rates are tough but the year doesn't be long passing. I have always felt the more you earn the more you spend. , You will cut your cloth to suit the first few years.

Sonics2k · 20-09-2020 8:58pm

smellyoldboot wrote: »

Earning while you're learning. Go to college and get grant money if you're lucky for 4 years and start in the same roughly 30k with nothing in between. And sparks and plumbers that are any use are on far far more than that after 4 years. Id suggest a bad attitude rather than anything wrong with the rates. You gotta learn to walk first.

Right, first of all I've already been through an apprenticeship, started at the age of 18 just after my leaving cert. I didn't enjoy it so I moved into a general door to door sales job, and over the course of many many years became a regional manager for a bloody popular finance company and a lot more. I know all about learning to walk first and training being important, so lets not act like I'm being entitled here.

It's also daft to say (another poster above) said that it's training and not work. Of course it's work. Go ask any apprentice tradesperson if they actual work. They train by working.

I am simply pointing out that the entry level pay is extremely low compared to other jobs, which also can lead to careers.

smellyoldboot · 20-09-2020 9:01pm

Sonics2k wrote: »

Right, first of all I've already been through an apprenticeship, started at the age of 18 just after my leaving cert. I didn't enjoy it so I moved into a general door to door sales job, and over the course of many many years became a regional manager for a bloody popular finance company and a lot more. I know all about learning to walk first and training being important, so lets not act like I'm being entitled here.

It's also daft to say (another poster above) said that it's training and not work. Of course it's work. Go ask any apprentice tradesperson if they actual work. They train by working.

I am simply pointing out that the entry level pay is extremely low compared to other jobs, which also can lead to careers.

So don't apply then. There will be plenty willing to take your place and accept the rates on offer.

Sonics2k · 20-09-2020 9:03pm

smellyoldboot wrote: »

So don't apply then. There will be plenty willing to take your place and accept the rates on offer.

Are you just willingly not reading correctly? I literally said I was still interested in it.

I am saying that I can understand why younger people are not moving to trades when the entry level rates are so low. I'm genuinely struggling to see why you can't comprehend this.

Birdsong · 20-09-2020 9:21pm

Sonics2k wrote: »

Oh damn, that was a brainfart in the OP. Knew it was €29k but spaced it like a doofus.

I understand the points people are making, and personally I'd be willing to make the sacrifice for a few years. All I'm saying is the entry level rates are very low compared to other work.

Absolutely we can rightly say there's a good qualification at the end of it, but for a lot of younger people they simply can't afford to try and live on that much, when places like Centra or Aldi are paying much more.

Rates of pay has very little to do with why school leavers don't consider an apprenticeship. Your comparing apprenticeship an apprenticeship v working in centra , that's not a good comparison.

An apprentice is comparable to starting a 4 year degree except at the end the apprentice at the age of 22/23 has a qualification recognised across the world and 4 years work experience, and good hourly rate. Their friend who went to college has had to work part-time, had debts and no real work experience, more than likely will be joining a graduate scheme.

smellyoldboot · 20-09-2020 9:23pm

Sonics2k wrote: »

Are you just willingly not reading correctly? I literally said I was still interested in it.

I am saying that I can understand why younger people are not moving to trades when the entry level rates are so low. I'm genuinely struggling to see why you can't comprehend this.

Doesn't make any sense. If the choice is between college or trades, you go with what suits you best. You get paid nothing in college, earn a decent living afterwards, you get paid a small but increasing amount in an apprenticeship, earn a decent living afterwards.

The type of young person who sees the Dole or minimum wage work as a more worthwhile route then either is probably a waster who is best served by taking that route anyway as they would be unlikely to put the work in that's required to build a decent career.

Quadrivium · 21-09-2020 12:41am

Sonics2k wrote: »

Oh damn, that was a brainfart in the OP. Knew it was €29k but spaced it like a doofus.

I understand the points people are making, and personally I'd be willing to make the sacrifice for a few years. All I'm saying is the entry level rates are very low compared to other work.

Absolutely we can rightly say there's a good qualification at the end of it, but for a lot of younger people they simply can't afford to try and live on that much, when places like Centra or Aldi are paying much more.

Your age isn't important but the trade you choose to pursue is, if you are passionate about mechanical stuff and cars, oil, dirt and hard grind for not great money then become a mechanic, however there are much better trades to choose such as plumbing or electrician which offer much better money and career opportunities. I'd stay away from the wet trades such as Bricklaying and Plastering, they offer good money when things are good but they are first for the chop as soon as construction slows down.

The first year of an apprenticeship is the hardest, nixers start coming in as soon as you know a bit about the trade which is usually towards the middle of the second year.

Quadrivium · 21-09-2020 12:43am

Deleted User wrote: »

So? If someone is interested in getting a trade but a couple of years at low pay while training is enough to make them give up on it and work in Aldi then bully for them and all the best to them.
Outisde Dublin obviously but with 2 level 8s and some professional qualifications in a high-demand sector it took another couple of years for me to be on more than someone in year 4 of your example would be making.

Not comparable, you weren't busting your back, arms or hands physically every day to earn that wage. You can't compare physical labour to office work, particularly in regards to the long term negative effects on the body.

Quadrivium · 21-09-2020 12:49am

smellyoldboot wrote: »

Earning while you're learning. Go to college and get grant money if you're lucky for 4 years and start in the same roughly 30k with nothing in between. And sparks and plumbers that are any use are on far far more than that after 4 years. Id suggest a bad attitude rather than anything wrong with the rates. You gotta learn to walk first.

Let's get real, a trade is a decent wage but the job is not a profession, a qualified plumber on €800 per week fully qualified will probably never earn more even after 20 years. A University educated Engineer or Surveyor will be in a profession with a defined pathway for their career that will eventually lead to increased responsibility and salary which after the same 20 years will likely be €80k to €100k per year.

There are pro's and con's to both but let's not be kidding ourselves here pretending a back breaking trade is somehow superior to a profession that requires a University education because it's not.

[Deleted User] · 21-09-2020 12:50am

You should be on a **** wage when you know **** all about what you are doing. When you know what you are doing, you earn a **** tonne. Sounds very fair.

Quadrivium · 21-09-2020 12:57am

Birdsong wrote: »

Rates of pay has very little to do with why school leavers don't consider an apprenticeship. Your comparing apprenticeship an apprenticeship v working in centra , that's not a good comparison.

An apprentice is comparable to starting a 4 year degree except at the end the apprentice at the age of 22/23 has a qualification recognised across the world and 4 years work experience, and good hourly rate. Their friend who went to college has had to work part-time, had debts and no real work experience, more than likely will be joining a graduate scheme.

That's nonsense. As someone who has done both there is simply no comparison.

A trade is good for some people because as you say it offers paid training and if you choose the right trade you might get relative job security but it has its limitation, trades can become very monotonous and they also have an earnings ceiling that is just above the average industrial wage plus working conditions are generally crap and hard on the body.

Career focused degrees such as law, engineering, IT, surveying etc. all offer interesting and challenging careers with defined career paths which offer increased autonomy and salary up to an over €100k in senior roles as well as benefits that simply don't exist in the trades. You also don't have to break your body physically humping tonnes of construction materials every day up to your late 60's when you retire....if you live that long

Apprenticeship rates are just depressing

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