Dublin - Significant reduction in rents coming?

cgcsb · 30-09-2020 8:49am

Dav010 wrote: »

So, google announced today that all employees who have left the country their job is based in, must return to that country before year end. 30% of Google’s Irish staff are wfh in other countries. This is being done due to tax/payroll implications and it is expected that all mnc’s/fintech companies will follow suit. This will effect the rental market and increase demand.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/google-tells-workers-to-return-to-country-where-they-are-employed-1.4367674%3fmode=amp

A friend in google told me this is a bit of a fudge. What they need to do is have an address in Ireland so they can receive a letter and reproduce it at a later stage. So they're claiming to be temporarily living with Irish colleagues and having the letter sent there or they can rent some shack in Longford for €50 a week with the same effect and continue to work from the Canaries or the Greek islands. Either way it's not quite the relief Dublin landlords will be hoping for.

Dav010 · 30-09-2020 8:51am

cgcsb wrote: »

A friend in google told me this is a bit of a fudge. What they need to do is have an address in Ireland so they can receive a letter and reproduce it at a later stage. So they're claiming to be temporarily leaving with Irish colleagues and having the letter sent there or they can rent some shack in Longford for €50 a week with the same effect and continue to work from the Canaries or the Greek islands

Seems a simple way to get around any country’s domicile requirement for taxation.

redarmyblues · 30-09-2020 9:22am

cgcsb wrote: »

A friend in google told me this is a bit of a fudge. What they need to do is have an address in Ireland so they can receive a letter and reproduce it at a later stage. So they're claiming to be temporarily living with Irish colleagues and having the letter sent there or they can rent some shack in Longford for €50 a week with the same effect and continue to work from the Canaries or the Greek islands. Either way it's not quite the relief Dublin landlords will be hoping for.

Tax residency and domicile in particular can be complex areas and the shack in Longford won't cut it, Revenue can easily audit for this. What is happening ATM and may continue is that instead of renting in Dublin, WFHers will migrate to town and country so the 2 bed in Blackrock becomes an apartment in Standhill and instead of an hour plus commute to Alphabet City in the morning the FANGSerf has a surf instead.

Hubertj · 30-09-2020 9:28am

cgcsb wrote: »

A friend in google told me this is a bit of a fudge. What they need to do is have an address in Ireland so they can receive a letter and reproduce it at a later stage. So they're claiming to be temporarily living with Irish colleagues and having the letter sent there or they can rent some shack in Longford for €50 a week with the same effect and continue to work from the Canaries or the Greek islands. Either way it's not quite the relief Dublin landlords will be hoping for.

So when you attach to your VPN and it shows your not in Ireland what happens? This is how a company know their employees aren’t in Ireland. I think your friend it incorrect or exaggerating.

JimmyVik · 30-09-2020 9:41am

Hubertj wrote: »

So when you attach to your VPN and it shows your not in Ireland what happens? This is how a company know their employees aren’t in Ireland. I think your friend it incorrect or exaggerating.

You attach to your VPN, via your own VPN

Interested Observer · 30-09-2020 10:11am

JimmyVik wrote: »

You attach to your VPN, via your own VPN

You're not going to be able to use your own VPN on a Google (or anyone else) provisioned machine and be able to access anything you need to actually work. In fact I'd be surprised if you could even install your own VPN software.

Assetbacked · 30-09-2020 11:12am

I'm not an expert at all but surely it's possible to get around a work laptop restriction on using a VPN? For example, configuring something with the WiFi you're using via your own laptop and then accessing your work laptop via a hotspot on your personal laptop? This doesn't impact me btw, I'm just curious.

Vieira82 · 30-09-2020 11:21am

there's no need of a VPN at all. All you need is an Irish Address, how will anyone in revenue check if x, y and z employee was not in that shack in Longford working from home? Doubt they could go and check all the internal logins to systems by employees of any company and if that is even legal or in the legislation? Seems like a gap to me. If there's legislation on this then I stand corrected.

JimmyVik · 30-09-2020 11:24am

Interested Observer wrote: »

You're not going to be able to use your own VPN on a Google (or anyone else) provisioned machine and be able to access anything you need to actually work. In fact I'd be surprised if you could even install your own VPN software.

I do it already.

Vieira82 · 30-09-2020 11:31am

JimmyVik wrote: »

I do it already.

Indeed and pretty common too, know even of people that use it to download torrents without any issue either...

Wanderer78 · 30-09-2020 11:35am

Vieira82 wrote:

Indeed and pretty common too, know even of people that use it to download torrents without any issue either...

Looked into vpn's before, just couldn't be arsed, I'm long waiting for the door to be broken down

awec · 30-09-2020 11:47am

I don't think people really get how serious an issue it can be if you are caught lying about your location. If you want to work abroad, for your own sake and your employers sake ensure you tell HR.

Hubertj · 30-09-2020 11:59am

Assetbacked wrote: »

I'm not an expert at all but surely it's possible to get around a work laptop restriction on using a VPN? For example, configuring something with the WiFi you're using via your own laptop and then accessing your work laptop via a hotspot on your personal laptop? This doesn't impact me btw, I'm just curious.

I can’t download any software to my laptop. We connect to WiFi, then to VPN in order to access drives, email etc. I can’t even USB sticks on my laptop except for audio

JimmyVik · 30-09-2020 12:32pm

Hubertj wrote: »

I can’t download any software to my laptop. We connect to WiFi, then to VPN in order to access drives, email etc. I can’t even USB sticks on my laptop except for audio

You can by a tiny router for €20 that you connect to your wifi. Then you connect to this router. The router handles the VPN. Nothing goes on to your laptop

rocketspocket · 30-09-2020 12:53pm

JimmyVik wrote: »

You can by a tiny router for €20 that you connect to your wifi. Then you connect to this router. The router handles the VPN. Nothing goes on to your laptop

Doesn't mitigate for HR asking you to do a quick face-to-face catch-up in the dublin office.

Smouse156 · 30-09-2020 1:05pm

rocketspocket wrote: »

Doesn't mitigate for HR asking you to do a quick face-to-face catch-up in the dublin office.

And what are the chances of that?

Blut2 · 30-09-2020 1:16pm

rocketspocket wrote: »

Doesn't mitigate for HR asking you to do a quick face-to-face catch-up in the dublin office.

Flying in from most of Europe takes about as much time to get to Dublin as getting public transport would from lots of places in Donegal or Kerry.

I personally know a couple of people from my firm who're using Irish VPNs to work full time from abroad and keep HR in the dark. They've had no problems yet, almost 6 months in. I can't see them deciding to come home for the Irish winter and further lockdowns.

Dav010 · 30-09-2020 1:33pm

Not being a techie, I find this fascinating. I wonder why anyone would live in a country they are supposed to work in, when it is that easy to hide your location from your employer?

But here’s my two question, if an employer requires you to be resident in the country you are employed in for legal/tax reasons, would it be gross misconduct for you to mislead your employer and leave them exposed to those legal/tax liabilities?

And secondly, considering we are talking about some of the most technologically advanced companies on earth, isn’t it a probability that they would check if you are actually in Ireland, considering the serious implications for them of you living in another jurisdiction when claiming to be here?

Lux23 · 30-09-2020 1:54pm

Dav010 wrote: »

Not being a techie, I find this fascinating. I wonder why anyone would live in a country they are supposed to work in, when it is that easy to hide your location from your employer?

But here’s my two question, if an employer requires you to be resident in the country you are employed in for legal/tax reasons, would it be gross misconduct for you to mislead your employer and leave them exposed to those legal/tax liabilities?

And secondly, considering we are talking about some of the most technologically advanced companies on earth, isn’t it a probability that they would check if you are actually in Ireland, considering the serious implications for them of you living in another jurisdiction when claiming to be here?

In answer to your first questions, some may take the risk because they want to be close to family. I know a handful of people who went home, but they won't come back to Dublin unless the COVID situation dies down and they are willing to take to risk.

Secondly, of course, the employers know where they are. They just haven't enforced it yet.

Dav010 · 30-09-2020 1:58pm

Lux23 wrote: »

In answer to your first questions, some may take the risk because they want to be close to family. I know a handful of people who went home, but they won't come back to Dublin unless the COVID situation dies down and they are willing to take to risk.

Secondly, of course, the employers know where they are. They just haven't enforced it yet.

Would Google sack people over it? I’m just thinking it would open job opportunities for others who do live here. Would it be considered a sackable offence to claim you are here, when you are not?

titan18 · 30-09-2020 2:00pm

Assetbacked wrote: »

I'm not an expert at all but surely it's possible to get around a work laptop restriction on using a VPN? For example, configuring something with the WiFi you're using via your own laptop and then accessing your work laptop via a hotspot on your personal laptop? This doesn't impact me btw, I'm just curious.

I'd say for security reasons if you were caught doing that, you'd be fairly fcuked out of it. Will depend on the company of course, but i know where i work, there's zero tolerance for people breaking any security measures due to the data we deal with.

rocketspocket · 30-09-2020 2:04pm

Smouse156 wrote: »

And what are the chances of that?

low as its not in anyones interest to rattle the apple cart..

Assetbacked · 30-09-2020 2:16pm

rocketspocket wrote: »

low as its not in anyones interest to rattle the apple cart..

This is true. If it got out that Revenue were being intrusive to the gift horse of the MNCs and the jobs they deliver to our little island, this would not be good for the image of Ireland as a place to do business in. I would be shocked if Revenue would probe this or if they would keep it high level like "do you have an address in the State at which you can receive correspondence? Yes? Okay, grand". Maybe if this was being abused and lasted beyond the pandemic then it would be looked into further.

Browney7 · 30-09-2020 2:25pm

Assetbacked wrote: »

This is true. If it got out that Revenue were being intrusive to the gift horse of the MNCs and the jobs they deliver to our little island, this would not be good for the image of Ireland as a place to do business in. I would be shocked if Revenue would probe this or if they would keep it high level like "do you have an address in the State at which you can receive correspondence? Yes? Okay, grand". Maybe if this was being abused and lasted beyond the pandemic then it would be looked into further.

Is it more the countries that people decamp to landing a tax bill through the FANG letterbox that they are trying to avoid? Revenue will get their corp tax and income tax whereas Italy or France might lay out proof that the companies have a taxable presence due to the fact Mario and Thierry are now residing (definition of residence and domicile difficulties aside) in their states

Pelezico · 30-09-2020 2:26pm

rocketspocket wrote: »

low as its not in anyones interest to rattle the apple cart..

And what an apple cart it is. Close off 750pm rent in Dublin plus bills and rent in Spain for say 400pm. No heating lower costs and great cheap food.

In six months you would bank a lot of extra coin and really enjoy life.

What is not to like?

Upon reflection, the alcohol is so cheap, you could easily become an alcoholic.

Assetbacked · 30-09-2020 2:32pm

Pelezico wrote: »

And what an apple cart it is. Close off 750pm rent in Dublin plus bills and rent in Spain for say 400pm. No heating lower costs and great cheap food.

In six months you would bank a lot of extra coin and really enjoy life.

What is not to like?

It's not even about the lower rent in Spain, I'd say there are Dublin apartment rents being paid by people WFH in family homes in Spain but their cash after rent goes a lot further there. This is another reason I don't think the rental market crash has to do with people leaving their rentals but more to do with no new people arriving to our shores the last 6 months.

Pelezico · 30-09-2020 2:34pm

Assetbacked wrote: »

It's not even about the lower rent in Spain, I'd say there are Dublin apartment rents being paid by people WFH in family homes in Spain but their cash after rent goes a lot further there. This is another reason I don't think the rental market crash has to do with people leaving their rentals but no new people arriving to our shores the last 6 months.

I have spent a lot of time in Spain. An Irish after tax salary would go a long way.
Highly dangerous for the liver as an Irishman.

beauf · 30-09-2020 2:51pm

Dav010 wrote: »

Not being a techie, I find this fascinating. I wonder why anyone would live in a country they are supposed to work in, when it is that easy to hide your location from your employer?

But here’s my two question, if an employer requires you to be resident in the country you are employed in for legal/tax reasons, would it be gross misconduct for you to mislead your employer and leave them exposed to those legal/tax liabilities?

And secondly, considering we are talking about some of the most technologically advanced companies on earth, isn’t it a probability that they would check if you are actually in Ireland, considering the serious implications for them of you living in another jurisdiction when claiming to be here?

Some people move country not simply for work, but also because they want to live in another country.

There are other ways to see where someone is, other than IP. So VPNs aren't foolproof. You might use your mobile, or other services that use cookies or check wifi near you. One of the ways they track hackers is their traffic tends to in line with working hours in their actual location.

awec · 30-09-2020 3:27pm

Dav010 wrote: »

Not being a techie, I find this fascinating. I wonder why anyone would live in a country they are supposed to work in, when it is that easy to hide your location from your employer?

But here’s my two question, if an employer requires you to be resident in the country you are employed in for legal/tax reasons, would it be gross misconduct for you to mislead your employer and leave them exposed to those legal/tax liabilities?

And secondly, considering we are talking about some of the most technologically advanced companies on earth, isn’t it a probability that they would check if you are actually in Ireland, considering the serious implications for them of you living in another jurisdiction when claiming to be here?

Yes.

There are the obvious tax issues for the individual, as they are neither tax compliant in Ireland nor in the country they are living in. There are obvious tax implications for the employer.

There are also legal implications for the employer. Depending on your job, if you are based in another country, even within the EU, then your employer may have to restrict you from doing certain tasks, working on certain projects or accessing particular data.

This notion that you can just stick on a VPN and sure nobody will really care is properly stupid stuff.

beauf · 30-09-2020 4:18pm

awec wrote: »

....
This notion that you can just stick on a VPN and sure nobody will really care is properly stupid stuff.

Especially if you are using the VPN to circumvent their policies.

VPNs are not all trustworthy either.

Dublin - Significant reduction in rents coming?

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