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Rugby 101 - Know your rucks from your mauls!

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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,479 ✭✭✭clsmooth


    What’s the actual law on pulling off a players jersey/pulling it over their head? Or is there one?


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    clsmooth wrote: »
    What’s the actual law on pulling off a players jersey/pulling it over their head? Or is there one?
    There is law covering that. foul play law 9. in misconduct "A player must not do anything that is against the spirit of good sportsmanship"
    that would cover that


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,525 ✭✭✭Ardillaun


    What do ye think of this proposal?

    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/aug/08/tackle-law-rugby-union

    I can see it being safer for the player being tackled. Any benefits for the tackler as well?

    BTW isn’t that ‘tackle’ by Farrell in the pic illegal already?


  • Subscribers Posts: 40,729 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Ardillaun wrote: »
    What do ye think of this proposal?

    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/aug/08/tackle-law-rugby-union

    I can see it being safer for the player being tackled. Any benefits for the tackler as well?

    BTW isn’t that ‘tackle’ by Farrell in the pic illegal already?

    the only way that can work is to make it illegal for ball carriers to stoop or lead with the head.... they would have to constantly carry upright into contact


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,601 ✭✭✭✭Squidgy Black


    Ardillaun wrote: »
    What do ye think of this proposal?

    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/aug/08/tackle-law-rugby-union

    I can see it being safer for the player being tackled. Any benefits for the tackler as well?

    BTW isn’t that ‘tackle’ by Farrell in the pic illegal already?

    As Syd said, it's almost physically impossible for every tackle to be below the waist. Players are going into contact driving low with their head first to try and gain metres. Also bringing all tackles below the waist means more collisions with knees/legs which brings it's own set of risks.


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  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 14,776 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    As Syd said, it's almost physically impossible for every tackle to be below the waist. Players are going into contact driving low with their head first to try and gain metres. Also bringing all tackles below the waist means more collisions with knees/legs which brings it's own set of risks.

    Agreed - Will be a nightmare to referee -

    How do you tackle a guy coming round the corner on a pick and go?

    You'll also see players dipping into to tackles etc.

    I totally understand what they are trying to do , but hard to see this working out successfully.

    Certainly in my experience coaching & refereeing at youths level a majority of tackle based concussions were down to tacklers getting their heads in the wrong place and getting a knee to the head - This would only increase the likelihood of that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,525 ✭✭✭Ardillaun


    I think below the nipple line or armpits would be a better rule.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,587 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    The coaches laptops- what is on them- the tv feed or real time GPS data from the tracker in the players shirts? Or are they just a way for sponsors to logo them up and get frequent in game tv advertising? You rarely see the coaches closely looking at them so are they just a prop?


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    Muahahaha wrote: »
    The coaches laptops- what is on them- the tv feed or real time GPS data from the tracker in the players shirts? Or are they just a way for sponsors to logo them up and get frequent in game tv advertising? You rarely see the coaches closely looking at them so are they just a prop?
    Data, trends, stats
    An old article but still relevant

    https://www.the42.ie/rugby-performance-analysis-1147020-Oct2013/


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,400 ✭✭✭jammiedodgers


    If the referee agrees to refer the matter to the TMO he will indicate what the potential offence was and where it took place. Potential infringements which must be CLEAR and OBVIOUS are as follows:

    • Law 9.A. Scoring points
    • Law 10.1, 10.4. Foul play: obstruction, dangerous play, tackling a player without the ball
    • Law 11.1 (b, c). Offside: player in front of the kicker
    • Law 12, 12.1. Knock-on or forward pass
    • Law 16.5 (d). Ruck: offside at the ruck – players not joining the ruck
    • Law 17.4 (d). Maul: offside at the maul – players not joining the maul
    • Law 19.5 (a, b). Player in touch
    • Law 19.2 (d). Lineout: quick throw
    • Law 22. In goal (including ball grounded by a defending player)
    • Law 15.5 (f, g). Double movement.

    Don't want to drag the team talk thread off topic.
    The quote above was in relation to Biggars intercept this weekend.
    If he was offside and had grounded the ball would the try have been awarded or can the TMO be only used for the instances above?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 18,069 ✭✭✭✭fryup


    RE: Tonga v Fra game

    when france took that quick free kick the ref had his back to it..but he let play continue?? is that allowed....what are the rules on a quick free kick?


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,066 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    As long as it's taken from the correct spot, nothing wrong. Remember the ref has a lot more eyes working for him these days. If it had been incorrect it would have been immediately brought to his attention.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,066 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Was it in the Connacht match last night? The play is going ahead near the opposition line, the ref says if Connacht don't score, he'll award a penalty try, this was on his mike to other officials. Really strange as Connacht scored and then had to kick the conversion. With the pen try their would have been no conversion kick and risk of missing.


  • Subscribers Posts: 40,729 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    So a crooked line out isn't considered as completed and therfore cannot end a game?

    Is that contentious?


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    So a crooked line out isn't considered as completed and therfore cannot end a game?

    Is that contentious?

    Play must restart. A crooked line out isn't a valid restart


  • Registered Users Posts: 576 ✭✭✭theintern


    Play must restart. A crooked line out isn't a valid restart

    It makes sense because otherwise you could try kick the ball directly out or not 10 from a restart kick to end the game, which isn't really fair.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,894 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    Water John wrote: »
    Was it in the Connacht match last night? The play is going ahead near the opposition line, the ref says if Connacht don't score, he'll award a penalty try, this was on his mike to other officials. Really strange as Connacht scored and then had to kick the conversion. With the pen try their would have been no conversion kick and risk of missing.

    Not knowing what game you saw but there was one incidence of this at RWC as well.

    A penalty try can only be awarded when some act of foul play denies a team of a probable try or forces a try to be scored away from the middle of the posts. If advantage is being played then it should normally be let play out; subject to what the foul play call was for. If a TMO or assistant referee made a call then play should continue and if required then it can be reviewed.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,497 ✭✭✭arsebiscuits1


    you haven't a clue!


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 22,584 CMod ✭✭✭✭Steve


    you haven't a clue!
    To whom are you referring there mr. biscuits?


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,066 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    He obviously thought long and hard about it.


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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,166 Mod ✭✭✭✭Zzippy


    Here's one I heard this morning.
    A league match in Connacht yesterday was blown up early by the referee after 77 mins, but apparently there would have been at least 4 mins injury time also. The referee was made aware of his mistake, acknowledged it and told the coaches he would play out the remaining time. But a brawl broke out between some players while this discussion was going on, so he just blew up and said he couldn't continue. Apparently the match was in the balance so it's very contentious. Presume the result as it stands will be appealed by the losing team. Interesting to hear the outcome of that...


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,894 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    Zzippy wrote: »
    Here's one I heard this morning.
    A league match in Connacht yesterday was blown up early by the referee after 77 mins, but apparently there would have been at least 4 mins injury time also. The referee was made aware of his mistake, acknowledged it and told the coaches he would play out the remaining time. But a brawl broke out between some players while this discussion was going on, so he just blew up and said he couldn't continue. Apparently the match was in the balance so it's very contentious. Presume the result as it stands will be appealed by the losing team. Interesting to hear the outcome of that...

    Considering that we have a member and poster to this page who is active in Connaught, I’ll thread carefully here...

    In general the referee is in charge of keeping time during a game that s/he is in charge of. The main exception to this would be games where an official timekeeper has been appointed to the game for that sole purpose, but appointed touch judges/assistant referees and 4th/5th officials will also track match time.

    In relation to your account, TBH there is no such thing as injury time in rugby. What may be practiced is the stopping of time to deal with non playing issues such as treatment and/or removal of injured players when the ball is dead. Such stoppages can only be called by the referee during a game as required. Unless the ref calls stops and restarts to time then a half can only be 40 minutes of play from the kick off.

    Now, I certainly can expect that a ref may have inadvertently called time a tad early, and I can also expect that two coaches may have their own take on the remaining time. However it is still the call of the match officials as to how long is left, assuming if any time is left.

    As regards the handbags, well perhaps that ate into the playing time remaining, thus making the whole argument academic bar for the Disciplinary Sub Committee hearing next Thursday :pac:


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,166 Mod ✭✭✭✭Zzippy


    Yeah I only posted it as an interesting one, workmate was telling us today about it. Reminded me of the infamous hurling game in 97 I think between Clare and Offaly, where the crowd had a sit-down protest on the pitch when the ref blew up early. That game was ordered to be re-played. It would be interesting to see the ref report for this one. But yes, you're right, tread carefully... REFS ARE INFALLIBLE!!


  • Registered Users Posts: 50 ✭✭totothejuggler


    Zzippy wrote: »
    Here's one I heard this morning.
    A league match in Connacht yesterday was blown up early by the referee after 77 mins, but apparently there would have been at least 4 mins injury time also. The referee was made aware of his mistake, acknowledged it and told the coaches he would play out the remaining time. But a brawl broke out between some players while this discussion was going on, so he just blew up and said he couldn't continue. Apparently the match was in the balance so it's very contentious. Presume the result as it stands will be appealed by the losing team. Interesting to hear the outcome of that...

    I was a player involved in the game and the brawl. The whole thing was bizarre. We were winning with the ball in our own half, we asked for time and were told it was up so we kicked it out. There was then a brawl after this, with one player of theirs in particular throwing multiple punches, this ended and we were clapped off, the opposing team then refused to go through our tunnel as their camera man had told them only 37 minutes had been played. A number of couches, players, and spectators crowded the ref, who I genuinely think was terrified at this stage. He eventually decided that the game could not continue as I number of players should of been sent off and was walked in by out team with drunken spectators whistling and following him to the dressing room.

    I don't really understand how he got the timing so wrong, without a doubt he blew or up early, it was a huge mistake as it was a top of the table clash between first and second, but I'm guessing it will stand


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,118 ✭✭✭shrapnel222


    thoughts on the Dan Biggar try: just curious about this one.

    TMO clearly says he lost control of the ball but then regathers it. All true, but he regathers it because a French arm is there who holds the ball up, so for me that is clearly a knock on. Biggar has control, loses control, ball hits French arm, then ball back in control. For me it's only not a knock on if he regathers it before it touches floor or Frenchman, but as it is, it's a clear if unobvious knock on, or am i reading it all wrong?


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,066 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    I think the checking by the referee is usually for clear and obvious, with the ref having already favoured a try. I don't think the video ref is to microscopically analyse the move.
    Can't remember the try but I thought Ntimack had got his hands in on another and it wasn't actually touched down.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,118 ✭✭✭shrapnel222


    Water John wrote: »
    I think the checking by the referee is usually for clear and obvious, with the ref having already favoured a try. I don't think the video ref is to microscopically analyse the move.
    Can't remember the try but I thought Ntimack had got his hands in on another and it wasn't actually touched down.

    TMO clearly said, he lost control but then regathered, so it was clear and obvious. the grounding wasn't checked as the ref was happy with it


  • Registered Users Posts: 5 AShearer93


    I'm going to print this off for some of the parents who attend our junior matches


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 14,776 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    Zzippy wrote: »
    Yeah I only posted it as an interesting one, workmate was telling us today about it. Reminded me of the infamous hurling game in 97 I think between Clare and Offaly, where the crowd had a sit-down protest on the pitch when the ref blew up early. That game was ordered to be re-played. It would be interesting to see the ref report for this one. But yes, you're right, tread carefully... REFS ARE INFALLIBLE!!
    I was a player involved in the game and the brawl. The whole thing was bizarre. We were winning with the ball in our own half, we asked for time and were told it was up so we kicked it out. There was then a brawl after this, with one player of theirs in particular throwing multiple punches, this ended and we were clapped off, the opposing team then refused to go through our tunnel as their camera man had told them only 37 minutes had been played. A number of couches, players, and spectators crowded the ref, who I genuinely think was terrified at this stage. He eventually decided that the game could not continue as I number of players should of been sent off and was walked in by out team with drunken spectators whistling and following him to the dressing room.

    I don't really understand how he got the timing so wrong, without a doubt he blew or up early, it was a huge mistake as it was a top of the table clash between first and second, but I'm guessing it will stand

    Generally speaking , once a game goes beyond 2/3rd's complete the result stands if the game is called up short either for injury or because the referee decides that it can't continue because of an incident.

    I have been involved as a coach in 2 games that were blown early because of a punch up and on both occasions the result stood as the games were beyond the 2/3rd's limit.

    The referee may have made a mistake , but as the law book says "The referee is the sole arbiter of fact on the field of play" so in the absence of a TMO or external time-keeper then it's entirely their call as to when they blow the game up.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    Quin_Dub wrote: »
    Generally speaking , once a game goes beyond 2/3rd's complete the result stands if the game is called up short either for injury or because the referee decides that it can't continue because of an incident.

    I have been involved as a coach in 2 games that were blown early because of a punch up and on both occasions the result stood as the games were beyond the 2/3rd's limit.

    The referee may have made a mistake , but as the law book says "The referee is the sole arbiter of fact on the field of play" so in the absence of a TMO or external time-keeper then it's entirely their call as to when they blow the game up.
    its not 2/3 of time. Its 70 minutes in an 80minute game, 62 minutes of a 70 minute game and 53 minutes in a 60 minute game ie about 7/8 of the time meant to be played.
    I've also been involved in a few games where result stood because game was called up early. None as ref but had a few when playing and was deteriorating pitch conditions s.


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