Benefits of Buying a New Build A Rated Home vs 2nd hand average D rated?

JimmyVik · 25-01-2021 12:21pm

awec wrote: »

It's two reasons mainly.

1. Land is so expensive that if developers gave each property big gardens the resultant property would end up too expensive. It is easier to sell more cheaper houses than fewer very expensive houses.

2. Councils expect certain density to ensure the best possible use of land, generally large gardens will prevent developers getting enough properties onto the site and they won't get planning approved.

Think id prefer the big back garden myself to whats being built in estates these days tbh.

Creamy Goodness · 25-01-2021 12:23pm

JimmyVik wrote: »

Think id prefer the big back garden myself to whats being built in estates these days tbh.

There's plenty of stock of houses that have bigger gardens, but as Awec says will they be in the budget?

awec · 25-01-2021 12:27pm

JimmyVik wrote: »

Think id prefer the big back garden myself to whats being built in estates these days tbh.

I think most people would prefer a big back garden if that was the only choice they had to make, but a new build with a big back garden would just be too far out of budget for the majority so it's rare to see developers do it.

Of course even in new builds you do get the odd house with a large garden just because of where that house is within the site, but it would still be smaller than what would be considered large for an old house.

grassylawn · 25-01-2021 1:53pm

I bought a second-hand D-rated home.

One thing I would highlight is that there's a greater risk of finding more issues than you're made aware of at sale time. It would be worth paying for a full structural survey over a homebuyers' report, The former is more thorough and I think might leave the surveyor liable if certain things are missed. Two years in and I am still finding issues to be fixed. Some emergent issues have been serious, like multiple gas leaks, a very problematic sewage system, very bad mould and damp on a cold bridge in the main bedroom, concealed behind a fitted wardrobe. A dodgy septic system can take some time to get to the point where it doesn't need very regular attention (NBS Sprang is great in the meantime). The number and severity of issues caused me significant anxiety in addition to the effort and cost involved in resolving them.

Another point is that the BER rating might be inaccurate in an older build. Our energy use is more in-line with a B-rated home than the D-something rating it has.

We have a really really nice garden, that I think could only develop over the course of years, so if that is a factor for you, look at older builds.

If you're looking for a one-off build you might have trouble finding a new one compared to an older one. A moderately common strategy is to buy an old one-off build to tear down and replace with a new house as the planning will already be there for it.

In favour of old house:
Affordability
Availability of one-off builds, if that is something you want
Possibility of a mature garden

In favour of new house:
Energy efficiency
Less risk of emergent issues imo

Dolbhad · 25-01-2021 2:11pm

JimmyVik wrote: »

I would have a similar opinion on new build estates.
What is with the tiny gardens nowadays?

A friend of mine always refers to new build estates as concrete jungles. And although the new build was west facing, because of the density of other houses, our sun would have been blocked. We were lucky we had the choice to decide because we lived with family. If we had to rent and save, HTB all the way as we would have needed it for the deposit.

I’ll admit I was very anti new build when we started looking and glad I didn’t go with one. But I’ve see the benefits of new builds so wouldn’t say to someone don’t buy one. If you don’t feel the need for a garden, I think new builds are the way to go. They may not require much maintenance for decades.

Our house requires a wall to be underpinned and drains replaced. We got detailed reports so we were aware before buying and had price knocked off to reflect this. But if we didn’t know, it would be massive hit. We had detailed engineer reports, drains testing, costing of the above works so did incur about €1500 in reports ourselves.

awec · 25-01-2021 2:17pm

Dolbhad wrote: »

A friend of mine always refers to new build estates as concrete jungles. And although the new build was west facing, because of the density of other houses, our sun would have been blocked. We were lucky we had the choice to decide because we lived with family. If we had to rent and save, HTB all the way as we would have needed it for the deposit.

I’ll admit I was very anti new build when we started looking and glad I didn’t go with one. But I’ve see the benefits of new builds so wouldn’t say to someone don’t buy one. If you don’t feel the need for a garden, I think new builds are the way to go. They may not require much maintenance for decades.

Our house requires a wall to be underpinned and drains replaced. We got detailed reports so we were aware before buying and had price knocked off to reflect this. But if we didn’t know, it would be massive hit. We had detailed engineer reports, drains testing, costing of the above works so did incur about €1500 in reports ourselves.

Aside from the most desirable areas of Dublin even new builds will have a garden that's a usable size.

There'll be space for patios, decking, sheds, barbeques, lawn etc. Certainly the modern trend of the garden basically being an outdoor room is possible in most cases.

What you won't have is a garden big enough for say a football match between your kids, but that's also why new build developments these days come with green areas generally. You're not going to have loads of flower beds, or lots of big trees / bushes either.

GarySmith · 02-02-2021 9:58am

There are many differences but to say main I would say gardens in traditional homes are much bigger with the same we get front garden as well which we don’t get in the new build homes, next is the interiors of the homes are almost same specifically in old kitchens if it’s not renovated. Next, the areas where old homes are built are more mature not in all the cases but in some areas I have noticed so keep this point in the list. Yes in new homes we get a new A rated heating which is plus and no need to do anything in this part and start enjoying this but in the new homes, also old homes are near to schools, transporting such as bus stop, bus station, tube station, shopping points and other amenities.

The new homes if are a bit far from town then they are connected with good roads, transportation to all points’ amenities and schools so need to make the priorities as individual needs and future plans.

suilegorma · 02-02-2021 10:15am

Mature all the way. Usually a good mix of ages & stages. I can't imagine an estate where we all have young kids, then all teenagers at the same time. Much more balanced with a mix, as older estates tend to have. Bigger greens too, most new estates have tiny gardens, no front gardens and very small green areas. They also feel crowded, especially those with three floors.

ToxicPaddy · 02-02-2021 10:42am

Had this dilemma ourselves when buying a couple of years back.

Main issue we saw was overall cost when you included redecorating, upgrading insulation and heating, modernising kitchens etc.

When looking at the overall cost, we went for new in a small development as it included the kitchen with granite worktops, new appliances which we upgraded anyway, larger rooms and we were lucky as it's a small development of only 11 houses and nearly all are locals living thete and all are very friendly.

The new house has an A2 rating, (still issues with heating which is frustrating but getting that sorted). Large bedrooms, 2 ensuite bathrooms and 5 min walk to main street of town and also near a beach.

The second hand ones definitely had bigger gardens, one had a garage and they were all in nice areas but larger estates with some having issues with gangs of kids causing problems (only found this out later)

One house we really loved due to style and location (small cul de sac, near town and walking distance of train station) needed a fair bit of work, upgrading of the heating system, windows replacing as noise proofing from outside was non existant, kitchen wasn't great and it looked like it wasn't painted in a good few years and kitchen dining area needed some reorganising so a wall had to come down.

Got rough idea of costs and was heading north of 100k for everything all in. Plus they were taking the piss on price and not budging on it which it clearly wasn't worth and was still for sale a year later.

The only other one we found was over budget for what it was and was facing a large plot which we also found out had planning permission for an office block. However we may have stretched if it wasn't for the office block.

Beside a housing estate on the edge of town. Who builds an office block?? ffs :rolleyes:

By buying new we actually saved about 50k in the overall scheme of things plus a lot of time and effort, yes we sacrificed on the garden size but there is a nice green area at the front where all kids play and no garage, but everything else is perfect for us.

Looking back now, I think our original budget for what we wanted was a bit of a pipedream and we soon found this out but luckily we saved a good bit and sold a property to buy this one so we only borrowed 40k more than we original planned to.

I can definitely see the appeal of buying a second hand house in a mature area. We saw some fabulous houses for sale but were either beyond our budget or too much work involved.

For us, the costs and time involved were just not worth the effort and we were planning to start a family, have a 3 month old now, so all that work with a new born in the house wasn't really something we wanted to take on.

Just my 2c on personal experience.

ebayissues · 02-02-2021 11:41am

grassylawn wrote: »

I bought a second-hand D-rated home.

One thing I would highlight is that there's a greater risk of finding more issues than you're made aware of at sale time. It would be worth paying for a full structural survey over a homebuyers' report, The former is more thorough and I think might leave the surveyor liable if certain things are missed. Two years in and I am still finding issues to be fixed. Some emergent issues have been serious, like multiple gas leaks, a very problematic sewage system, very bad mould and damp on a cold bridge in the main bedroom, concealed behind a fitted wardrobe. A dodgy septic system can take some time to get to the point where it doesn't need very regular attention (NBS Sprang is great in the meantime). The number and severity of issues caused me significant anxiety in addition to the effort and cost involved in resolving them.

Another point is that the BER rating might be inaccurate in an older build. Our energy use is more in-line with a B-rated home than the D-something rating it has.

We have a really really nice garden, that I think could only develop over the course of years, so if that is a factor for you, look at older builds.

If you're looking for a one-off build you might have trouble finding a new one compared to an older one. A moderately common strategy is to buy an old one-off build to tear down and replace with a new house as the planning will already be there for it.

In favour of old house:
Affordability
Availability of one-off builds, if that is something you want
Possibility of a mature garden

In favour of new house:
Energy efficiency
Less risk of emergent issues imo

This is spot on. Viewing a house multiple homes before you buy it won't highlight issues all the issues. It's when you move in that's when you discover the skeletons under the closet.

I moved into a 2nd hand house and first I found the neighbour's boiler makes erratic noises when on and loads of other stuff.

I'd still favor buying in a well mature estate than a new build.

poker--addict · 02-02-2021 7:22pm

2nd hand market in our locality is almost non existent, especially for houses not in large developments.

Likely positives include slightly bigger sites, more privacy, more mature neighbours. Concrete built!

That does come at a cost of unknown problems but that is I suggest rare compared to what people might thing, with a small amount of aesthetical improvements often sufficient to arrive at your desired level of comfort.

I love the idea of an a-rated home. I despise the idea of a 3rd or 4th bedroom being a shoebox with almost no sound proofing, as is too often the compromise.

mloc123 · 02-02-2021 7:35pm

Issues I notice with new builds is the move to 3 storey houses. You get a 4 bedroom house, but the footprint and as a result the groundfloor living area is smaller than a 2 storey house.

Front gardens rarely exist in new builds now also, you get 2 parking spaces in front of the house.

You will also have an estate full of teenagers 12-15 years after they are built. It can be hard to predict how an estate will mature... Some work out better than others.

Personally I have preferred to buy in mature, established areas and spent money on upgrades etc..

Somebody mentioned buying a house for granite worktops... Personally I prefer to install a new kitchen in a nice mature estate.

youcancallmeal · 02-02-2021 8:06pm

Creamy Goodness wrote: »

You mean you don't replace your controller every year? :pac:

---

As an aside I've a heat pump heating system and have lived in the house two years. The maintenance for that time has been €300 ( 2 * €150 annual services).

Also electricity bills are roughly €65-80pm to heat, light and work from the house all year round (would be at the high end of the scale in winter).

From what I've heard of people with heat pump this is far more closer to the norm than €450 a year on maintenance.

I've an A2W heat pump as well. Been in the house 4 years and it's working out around 1k a year for heat and electricity. I asked the heat pump expert when we moved in if it needed annual maintenance and he said no, just make sure its configured properly and give them a call if there's any problems. He reckoned it would be 10-15 years before it would need any maintenance/replacement of parts. All good so far anyway.

As to ops question we had the same dilemma when buying whether to go for new build or 2nd hand in a our desired area. New build is 4 bed and has small driveway and back garden. It is actually 2 story which seems to be the exception to the rule in recent years of tall narrow 3 story. The 2nd hand houses we were looking at and could afford in the area where we wanted to live were only 3 bed and had poor energy ratings. In the end the htb and 4 bed swung it for us. I'm fairly happy but the wife is still hoping we can sell up in a few years and get a 4 bed 2nd hand in our originally desired area. I'd really miss the heat pump, there's a lot to be said for hassle free constant house temp and 24/7 hot water.

0gac3yjefb5sv7 · 02-02-2021 8:09pm

How much would a A rated house save in bills a year approximately vs say a C or D rated house?

awec · 02-02-2021 8:39pm

MattS1 wrote: »

How much would a A rated house save in bills a year approximately vs say a C or D rated house?

There is a big difference between a C and a D.

An A2, which is the best BER you'd get from a developer, would probably save you 1-2k a year, fluctuating on whether or not it's a good C or a bad D.

cruizer101 · 02-02-2021 9:39pm

youcancallmeal wrote: »

I asked the heat pump expert when we moved in if it needed annual maintenance and he said no, just make sure its configured properly and give them a call if there's any problems. He reckoned it would be 10-15 years before it would need any maintenance/replacement of parts. All good so far anyway.

I would check the manufactuters recommedations on this. I know someone who didn't get theirs serviced and ended up with a hefty bill that they were told could have been avoided if the unit was serviced.

hmmm · 02-02-2021 9:39pm

When I was younger I'd have focused a lot on the property, but these days I focus more on the community. I'd prefer an older place in a settled community. You can fix draughts, but you can do nothing about your neighbours.

MicktheMan · 02-02-2021 10:13pm

MattS1 wrote: »

How much would a A rated house save in bills a year approximately vs say a C or D rated house?

Maybe +/- €1000 per annum ish for a standard 3 bed semi.

I wouldn't be getting too hung up on the energy rating and its effect on bills though. All things being equal, in general, the bills should be lower for better ratings but when it comes to housing all things are definitely not equal unfortunately.

For example, I live in a 210 sqm 1970's house with an official BER of C1. If my house was to perform as a C1, you would expect by bills for heating and hot water to be around the €2,200 mark. My actual average annual bills over the last five years for heating & hot water is €650, equivalent to a BER somewhere in the A1/A2 region.

Why is this? Imo, it is because there are too many assumptions and not enough testing of existing houses to make the BER system anything other than a box ticking waste of time for the existing housing segment.

Btw, you can also get so called A rated houses performing in real life like a C or a D rating.

SEPT 23 1989 · 02-02-2021 10:17pm

I would pay the extra for fuel in exchange for the space and reduced noise levels

Worth every cent

IHateNewShoes · 02-02-2021 10:53pm

Very interesting thread. I am in a similar position to the OP myself.

It is hard to justify spending 300k approx on a second hand house Vs. paying 350k on a similar new build when you factor in the HTB in my opinion. Don't get me wrong, it is very frustrating seeing new builds that have gone from 335k to 350k since September last year due to the HTB being raised to 30k. It really is lining the pockets of developers!

awec · 02-02-2021 10:54pm

hmmm wrote: »

When I was younger I'd have focused a lot on the property, but these days I focus more on the community. I'd prefer an older place in a settled community. You can fix draughts, but you can do nothing about your neighbours.

But the chance of getting crap neighbours is no different between a new development and an old one.

And you have as much chance of getting an excellent sense of community in a new development as you do in an old one. And to boot, you are getting that sense of community with people who are by in large at the same stage of life as you are.

I really would not have this as a deciding factor at all. The size of the property, the size of the garden and the potential distance to town centres are infinitely more relevant things, but finding a second hand house that ticks all these boxes and doesn't require big investment is not straightforward. And it'll be pricey.

ongarite · 02-02-2021 11:37pm

I don't get the fascination with front gardens that people are harking on about in older houses.
In my many COVID 5km walks in D15, the vast majority have been fully converted to multi-car driveways.
What little garden is left is just for decoration.

Sound-proofing is significantly improved in newer builds mainly due to the new building regulations which call for better air-tightness.
Parents live in early 90s semi-d; you can hear light switches being turned on next door, electric shower being run, etc..
I live in celtic tiger build apartment; can't hear anything either side due to fire-regulations on adjoining units but can hear plenty from above.
Sibling in A3 rated 2019 build semi-d; can't hear a thing from adjoining neighbour & they have young child

Alkers · 03-02-2021 12:13am

MicktheMan wrote: »

Maybe +/- €1000 per annum ish for a standard 3 bed semi.

I wouldn't be getting too hung up on the energy rating and its effect on bills though. All things being equal, in general, the bills should be lower for better ratings but when it comes to housing all things are definitely not equal unfortunately.

For example, I live in a 210 sqm 1970's house with an official BER of C1. If my house was to perform as a C1, you would expect by bills for heating and hot water to be around the €2,200 mark. My actual average annual bills over the last five years for heating & hot water is €650, equivalent to a BER somewhere in the A1/A2 region.

Why is this? Imo, it is because there are too many assumptions and not enough testing of existing houses to make the BER system anything other than a box ticking waste of time for the existing housing segment.

Btw, you can also get so called A rated houses performing in real life like a C or a D rating.

The ber estimated costs are fairly simplistic in that it assumes the entire house will be heated at the same times and to the same temperature

bdmc5 · 03-02-2021 2:04am

Lia_lia wrote: »

I guess the main differences that I've noticed are:

Better heating in new A rated home (obvioulsy)

Older homes generally have much bigger back gardens and often also have a front garden which most new builds lack.

Older homes in more mature areas with better amenities. Not always the case but definitely is here in Cork.

Older homes tend to have smaller kitchens from what I've noticed. Unless renovated/extended.

If you're a FTB you can get HTB for new home.

Curious to where in cork you talking about in terms of new build and lack of amenities. We have a new build in Blackrock in cork have fantastic amenities all around in terms schools , services .Marina etc. Same around Rochestown, Ballincollig with new builds all a stone throw from all the amentities you’d need.

Plenty of used homes in the middle of nowhere in cork so seems a odd comment to highlight cork when all the big development happening across the city is a great blend of new build and location .

Definitely smaller gardens in new builds but in cork anyways much nicer new home vs the brutal selection of used homes needing major renovations to bring to standard of new build. I find a lot of people buying new builds are young families starting off but then often the next buy is a used home as the family grows and bigger garden space is more important and maybe more settled financially to take on a project. Again this is sweeping generalisations but couldn’t recommend a new build highly enough on my side

mloc123 · 03-02-2021 10:11am

awec wrote: »

But the chance of getting crap neighbours is no different between a new development and an old one.

Not IMO... When looking at older house you can scope out the area/estate. I would consider that due dilligance. Go and walk around the house during the day, at night time etc... The house we are in at the moment, I checked out the area 6-7 times at various times/days during the week. Stupid stuff like heading up late at night to see if teenagers hang around, dogs barking in gardens etc..

You can get a pretty good idea about the neighbours... houses maintained, have they a load of crap out in the back garden etc..

When viewing houses, we immediately crossed some off our list when we saw the houses next door.

With a new build, you are viewing a blank canvas... you have no idea who will be moving in. In an older estate (people may move etc..) what you see today will be pretty much how the estate will be for the future.

Wildly Boaring · 03-02-2021 10:12am

Our first house was a D1 rated bungalow about 900 sq foot

Our house now is A2 rated 2 story about 1800 sq foot

Heating cost approx the same.
Few notes. The bungalow was C2 by time I was finished with it.
The bungalow had lower ceilings and smaller rooms. The bungalow had a wood burner in the front room. Loved it and was very cheap to run.

I'd fully agree with those stating you cannot chose your neighbours in either situation.
Our new house is in a new estate. New al amenities and there are 3 houses near us with same aged kids.
Previously we were out in the country a little. Our kids had nobody to play with.

We have the odd bit of nuisance from the teenagers in the estate and yes the kids from the social houses are mixed in with them.
But in the countryside we had all out war with the farmer next door as he thought he owned part of our property.

Purchasing a secondhand comes with its negatives. We had to put in a new garage door, a new front door and fix 3 or 4 windows. We spent a few hundred on the boiler. We spent a few hundred on insulation. We spent a few thousand upgrading the septic tank (not an issue to most).

The room were small and pokey, but thought of them as small and cozy. We loved our small warm house

In the A2 we've still got the summer duvet on. The kids rooms never drop below 16 degrees and the house heats up in an hour if we've been away. We've open plan kitchen and dining room and lovely big windows in all directions. Space for 2 cars on the drive enough room in the back for a big shed, a slide, swings and will be doing some paving this summer. (our old house was on 2 acres, we didn't even keep it all mowed).

My wife would say 100% go new and buy in a good location near paths and shops and other people.
Personally I was more than happy in the old house but it was in the wrong part of the country
C, B, A - to me it's more about location

cubatahavana · 03-02-2021 11:07am

ongarite wrote: »

I don't get the fascination with front gardens that people are harking on about in older houses.
In my many COVID 5km walks in D15, the vast majority have been fully converted to multi-car driveways.
What little garden is left is just for decoration.

Sound-proofing is significantly improved in newer builds mainly due to the new building regulations which call for better air-tightness.
Parents live in early 90s semi-d; you can hear light switches being turned on next door, electric shower being run, etc..
I live in celtic tiger build apartment; can't hear anything either side due to fire-regulations on adjoining units but can hear plenty from above.
Sibling in A3 rated 2019 build semi-d; can't hear a thing from adjoining neighbour & they have young child

Moved to an A3 semi-D new build in december. We have a 2 year old, our neighbours a greyhound.

According to him, their dog whines almost every morning at 6/6:30 and they were worried that we were annoyed, to the point that he brought the other day ear plugs for us and a nice bottle of wine.

Our son has had a few difficult tantrums with screaming at the top of his lungs involved (as 2 year olds would do)

We are both astonished that we hear nothing from each other

iColdFusion · 03-02-2021 11:40am

There is alot to be said for a new house but I find the layout quite stingy on anything in my price range, no utility, combined kitchen living room, really cut down to the minimum m2 like scaled up apartments.

An old type small derelict house needing a complete refit made sense 3-4 years ago when they were 70-80 grand but all seem to be 120-150 now which doesnt really make sense money wise.

I think the best value at the moment is in circa 10 year old houses, post celtic tiger sky high prices and pre the super high energy build regs these days while still having a decent rating and in the majority ready to move into, don't need new kitchen, sanitary ware or general updating.

Need to give good consideration to off street parking and installing a car charging point in the future too, that's the way we are going.

Wildly Boaring · 03-02-2021 12:03pm

iColdFusion wrote: »

There is alot to be said for a new house but I find the layout quite stingy on anything in my price range, no utility, combined kitchen living room, really cut down to the minimum m2 like scaled up apartments.

An old type small derelict house needing a complete refit made sense 3-4 years ago when they were 70-80 grand but all seem to be 120-150 now which doesnt really make sense money wise.

I think the best value at the moment is in circa 10 year old houses, post celtic tiger sky high prices and pre the super high energy build regs these days while still having a decent rating and in the majority ready to move into, don't need new kitchen, sanitary ware or general updating.

Need to give good consideration to off street parking and installing a car charging point in the future too, that's the way we are going.

BCAR only came in in 2014. I'd be wary of anything modern before it

cubatahavana · 03-02-2021 12:04pm

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

BCAR only came in in 2014. I'd be wary of anything modern before it

What’s BCAR?

Benefits of Buying a New Build A Rated Home vs 2nd hand average D rated?

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