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The UK response to Covid-19 [MOD WARNING 1ST POST]

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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    If I've been bamboozled by fake news, shame on me, but I saw this twitter thread earlier and thought this was pretty much the plan.


    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/mar/15/uk-covid-19-strategy-questions-unanswered-coronavirus-outbreak

    They appear to have concluded that it is inevitable most people would get the disease, so we should let the epidemic proceed to allow 60% of the population to become infected and build herd immunity through the wild virus.


    https://twitter.com/iandonald_psych/status/1238518371651649538


    If that is actually the approach, it may or may not be effective. My point isn't related to that; it's about international relations with countries whose vulnerable are out and about and at risk.

    Sky news summed it up earlier when talking about the daily press conferences with either the PM or senior ministers. The government lost control of the story.

    This allowed a narrative to start that they had no control over.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,855 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    It also isn't true that people aren't being tested either.

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,831 ✭✭✭theological


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    Here's from the Guardian live feed on the Downing Street press lobby earlier:
    The spokesman defended the government’s coronavirus testing policy. Last week it said it would prioritise testing people admitted to hospital, instead of testing those with milder symptoms. There has been particular concern about NHS workers not being tested. But the spokesman said key workers such as NHS staff were an “important focus” for the coronavirus testing regime. He added:
    We have carried out more tests than most countries in the world. We continue to increase our testing capacity.

    So yes they are testing people. Hence why the identified cases in the UK is now 1,543.

    Saying that testing is now going to be prioritised to hospitals is different than saying there's no testing at all.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,666 ✭✭✭CelticRambler


    I've explained why the logic of doing the right things in stages makes sense instead of rushing to disproportionate action from day 1.

    You haven't explained anything - you've just provided us with links to government mouthpieces saying what you're saying.

    I'll ask you again (expecting you to ignore the question again): why is it right for the government to wait days or weeks before isolating the most vulnerable people? And by "right" I mean effective from a real disease control point of view, not some wishy-washy stuff about Brits suffering from fatigue.

    Your point regarding Italians not respecting isolation rules falls into the same category: the government tried to contain the infection within the initial hot-spot by putting half-hearted control measures in place. As I pointed out several days ago, that kind of policy is doomed to failure and isn't tolerated when it comes to animal diseases. There are feckineejits in every country: if they're infected and insist on spreading it around through ignorance, then that's a problem that can only be solved by draconian governance. If they are the government, then the country will suffer.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,666 ✭✭✭CelticRambler


    Saying that testing is now going to be prioritised to hospitals is different than saying there's no testing at all.

    It also means that the number of infections detected will be considerably underestimated, and you'll have people posting messages on social media using that as evidence to show how the government is doing a great job.

    Ignorance is bliss. :rolleyes:


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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,357 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    How many EU countries are following the UK's strategy?


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 21,936 CMod ✭✭✭✭Ten of Swords


    Mod

    The above 37 posts have been separated out of the CA Brexit thread and moved to the Covid forum


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,666 ✭✭✭CelticRambler


    A two-part questions for Theo: Boris has now decided to tell people to keep their distance, and not to go to pubs, clubs and the like.
    (a) why is Monday evening "the right time" to do this, when it obviously wasn't right last week?
    (b) given the number of Brits who, despite all the measures being put into place in Europe, went on holiday last week only to find themselves being told to go home, do you think the British will be any better than the Italians at following the suggestion to voluntarily curb their movements?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,831 ✭✭✭RobMc59


    How many EU countries are following the UK's strategy?

    There is no unified response from the EU to this crisis with countries doing their own thing.
    Johnson said he has been in discussions with Arlene Foster,Michelle O'Neil and the Taoiseach-hopefully Ireland is waking up to the possibility they maybe better liasing with the UK rather than the apparently rudderless EU.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    I sense this has been an opportunity for the 'Ra heads to have a free hit at Brexit Britain (not all fall into this category but we know they are out there).


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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,666 ✭✭✭CelticRambler


    RobMc59 wrote: »
    There is no unified response from the EU to this crisis with countries doing their own thing.
    ... hopefully Ireland is waking up to the possibility they maybe better liasing with the UK rather than the apparently rudderless EU.

    It's obviously escaped your attention that (just about) all EU countries - including Ireland - implemented strict new control measures after a meeting of the ECDC last week. Varadkar didn't wait to come home from the US to give his press conference, unlike Johnson who was too busy having an adult weekend with his bit of stuff to come back and chair a COBRA meeting.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    A two-part questions for Theo: Boris has now decided to tell people to keep their distance, and not to go to pubs, clubs and the like.
    (a) why is Monday evening "the right time" to do this, when it obviously wasn't right last week?
    (b) given the number of Brits who, despite all the measures being put into place in Europe, went on holiday last week only to find themselves being told to go home, do you think the British will be any better than the Italians at following the suggestion to voluntarily curb their movements?

    Why was Thursday the right day for Ireland to close the schools? Why not Wednesday?

    The Irish government is doing what is best for Ireland, at the right time for Ireland. The U.K. is doing no different.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,565 ✭✭✭RandomName2



    You're right: there's no evidence at the moment. Because that evidence can/will only become available after the fact. The most chilling part of Patrick Vallance's interview is the defeatism. Now it may be that he's told Johnson "tough luck, mate, it's here to stay and there's nothing we can do to stop it" - which would be a reasonable position, and one with which I agree; but to go on TV and state that "the big stuff doesn't matter and we'll do other things when the time is right" - that's downright irresponsible.

    The defeatism in Europe in general has astounded me. The attitude of the public and governments seems to veer wildly from 'it will all be fine. Nothing to worry about. Business as usual' to 'we expect 1.5 million deaths' in a heartbeat.

    I find that more scary than the virus itself. There is no problem so small that an incompetent hand can't f*ck it up.

    I can't believe that Asia is the model, for pragmatism, social cohesion, and plain honest backbone in relation to dealing with a challenge like this.

    When there is ample evidence from other countries, and in terms of past pandemics, about what does and does not work I find it concerning when so-called experts blithely ignore this vital information in favor of their own conjecture.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,855 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    Aegir wrote: »
    Why was Thursday the right day for Ireland to close the schools? Why not Wednesday?

    The Irish government is doing what is best for Ireland, at the right time for Ireland. The U.K. is doing no different.


    Wednesday would have been better than Thursday

    Tuesday would have been better than Wednesday.

    etc. etc.

    It's not that difficult to understand.

    Brits had their heads up their arses, despite it being glaringly obvious what type of shit was going down in other places. But oh no, the glorious Brit Aristocracy had to know better.

    Plenty of arse-lickers on boards on here glorifying Boris and saying his approach of apparently letting the plebs get it and it to work its way to the population was the correct one, will now either have to criticise him for "doing the wrong thing" now or else will have to eat humble pie if they want to keep licking his arse. I suspect they'll hold off on posting here so much for a while and then come back and hope other posters have forgotten


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,666 ✭✭✭CelticRambler


    France is going into lockdown at midday tomorrow. The US has now overtaken the UK in terms of proactive isolation and formal prohibition on events of more than ten people (not that that'll make up for the failings of their third-world healthcare system). So it looks like the UK is the only civilised country where the government's official advice is still "let's all do our bit, stiff upper lip, don't let the side down ... but you can do whatever you want if you really want to."


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The lack of testing is a scandal. How can they model the progression of the virus if they don't have the numbers? They will be planning from a position of complete blindness.

    But I am not so convinced that the rest of the approach is not without merit. It is all very well completely locking down a country or region, and stopping the virus in its tracks, by virtue of there being no human to human contact. But what happens when the lock-down gets released? The spread just starts off again, right, as if nothing had ever happened? It will have been only on pause. A country cant be locked down until a vaccination is developed - that could take years. And after a few weeks of lock-down, there will be social breakdown for sure. So is a managed spread of the virus not the most appropriate thing? So that it doesn't just have a second peak later? (whether this level of intervention counts as 'managed' is a different question, which I cannot possibly have the level of knowledge to opine upon)

    It is a high risk strategy for sure, and may break the NHS, but it is not completely without merit (and of course has the benefit of not bringing the economy to an absolute halt). I am not convinced that other governments have not just done the easy thing, demanded by the press, and that Johnson is actually doing the braver thing.

    Prepare to be shot down here.....just thinking out loud


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,831 ✭✭✭RobMc59


    France is going into lockdown at midday tomorrow. The US has now overtaken the UK in terms of proactive isolation and formal prohibition on events of more than ten people (not that that'll make up for the failings of their third-world healthcare system). So it looks like the UK is the only civilised country where the government's official advice is still "let's all do our bit, stiff upper lip, don't let the side down ... but you can do whatever you want if you really want to."

    There`s something very disturbing that despite the unfolding disaster on mainland Europe you can still find the time to have a pop at the UK. :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,666 ✭✭✭CelticRambler


    I'm not having a pop at the UK, I'm asking anyone who says the UK government is doing the right thing to justify their decision to not adopt the control measures being implemented by everyone else. So far, like with Brexit, there isn't a single one who's come back and explained why the UK government's dithering is a good idea, and backed it up with real science.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,855 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    woody22 wrote: »
    The lack of testing is a scandal. How can they model the progression of the virus if they don't have the numbers? They will be planning from a position of complete blindness.

    But I am not so convinced that the rest of the approach is not without merit. It is all very well completely locking down a country or region, and stopping the virus in its tracks, by virtue of there being no human to human contact. But what happens when the lock-down gets released? The spread just starts off again, right, as if nothing had ever happened? It will have been only on pause. A country cant be locked down until a vaccination is developed - that could take years. And after a few weeks of lock-down, there will be social breakdown for sure. So is a managed spread of the virus not the most appropriate thing? So that it doesn't just have a second peak later? (whether this level of intervention counts as 'managed' is a different question, which I cannot possibly have the level of knowledge to opine upon)

    It is a high risk strategy for sure, and may break the NHS, but it is not completely without merit (and of course has the benefit of not bringing the economy to an absolute halt). I am not convinced that other governments have not just done the easy thing, demanded by the press, and that Johnson is actually doing the braver thing.

    Prepare to be shot down here.....just thinking out loud

    If Johnson believes that the best thing is for people to contract the virus now and get it over with, then he should lead by example. Expose himself and his family to some infected person and check themselves into a public ward with no special conditions.

    When he does that, you can call him brave if you want. I won't, but you can if you want. Until then, he can fuck right off.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,831 ✭✭✭RobMc59


    I'm not having a pop at the UK, I'm asking anyone who says the UK government is doing the right thing to justify their decision to not adopt the control measures being implemented by everyone else. So far, like with Brexit, there isn't a single one who's come back and explained why the UK government's dithering is a good idea, and backed it up with real science.

    You know as well as the rest of us no one knows how to control this situation for sure.I don`t know what you`re being told in France but looking at mainland Europe from the UK,things look pretty dire which is bad news for all of us-I honestly can`t think of one reason the UK would want to follow the EU`s lead.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,308 ✭✭✭beggars_bush


    RobMc59 wrote: »
    You know as well as the rest of us no one knows how to control this situation for sure.I don`t know what you`re being told in France but looking at mainland Europe from the UK,things look pretty dire which is bad news for all of us-I honestly can`t think of one reason the UK would want to follow the EU`s lead.

    at least take a few suggestions on board


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,666 ✭✭✭CelticRambler


    RobMc59 wrote: »
    You know as well as the rest of us no one knows how to control this situation for sure.I don`t know what you`re being told in France but looking at mainland Europe from the UK,things look pretty dire which is bad news for all of us-I honestly can`t think of one reason the UK would want to follow the EU`s lead.

    For once, I can say that I know better than most on here how to control this situation, and everything the UK government is doing (or rather not doing) goes against the principles of good (respiratory) disease control.

    Again, you - like Theo - are avoiding any justification for the UK government's policy of dither and delay.
    - Johnson says he's encouraging people to avoid going to the theatre - but he won't order the theatres to be closed. Why not? If going to the theatre is a bad idea in the current context, why is he allowing the option?
    - Johnson says there are plans to isolate the over 70s for their own good ... but not yet. Well why not yet? How many of them need to die before it's the right time?
    - If Johnson says this risks being a major challenge for the UK economy, why doesn't he pause Brexit while the country (and all its future trading partners) grapple with the fallout?

    Looking at mainland Europe from the UK, you are looking into the future. It irritates me no end to see politicians of all nationalities dragging their heels over this, but most of all when they do so even though they've been given the gift of geographical isolation and a few weeks' grace.


  • Registered Users Posts: 329 ✭✭All that fandango


    Why is the attitude of the British so different towards the coronavirus compared to that of their neighbours over here? The sterotypes of the British hating being told what to do are proving to be right. And I've noticed aswell on various UK programmes such as This Morning, snide comments about Ireland "not having a health service" and "only closing schools due to having a border with NI". At a time like this, why undermine another country's efforts while continuing to do the bare minimum yourself?


  • Registered Users Posts: 908 ✭✭✭coastwatch


    The UK government commits to increase testing, follow criticisim by the WHO of governments that had neglected or held back testing.

    The scientific message is finally getting through!

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/16/coronavirus-government-vows-accelerate-testing


  • Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 74,777 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    Why is the attitude of the British so different towards the coronavirus compared to that of their neighbours over here? The sterotypes of the British hating being told what to do are proving to be right. And I've noticed aswell on various UK programmes such as This Morning, snide comments about Ireland "not having a health service" and "only closing schools due to having a border with NI". At a time like this, why undermine another country's efforts while continuing to do the bare minimum yourself?
    Moved into this thread as it addresses similar issues


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    Why is the attitude of the British so different towards the coronavirus compared to that of their neighbours over here? The sterotypes of the British hating being told what to do are proving to be right. And I've noticed aswell on various UK programmes such as This Morning, snide comments about Ireland "not having a health service" and "only closing schools due to having a border with NI". At a time like this, why undermine another country's efforts while continuing to do the bare minimum yourself?

    Because they know another economic shock is coming with Brexit. Nobody will be negotiating Brexit if they are in the middle of epidemic so they are hoping to get Corona done with quickly and not needing to deal with prolonged flatter curve. It's only vast numbers of pensioners dying nothing really in comparison to a political career. The only problem I see in the strategy is that it will disproportionately hit Tory voters. Anyway that's my reading of their situation.


  • Registered Users Posts: 786 ✭✭✭Tango One


    I can hear Boris in my head saying let's get this Covid-19 done.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,861 ✭✭✭Christy42


    They have largely changed tack though and seem to be following most of the rest of the 1st world. I expect them to start shutting things down.


  • Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 10,363 Mod ✭✭✭✭humberklog


    There was a very good article in The Guardian last month by Stefan Collini headed Inside the mind of Dominic Cummings. Audio version is also available on podcast with the same title on their Audio Long Reads.

    Stefan has gone back over Dominic Cummings' personal blog going back as far as 2013 to try and figure out what beliefs Cummings holds. DC is chief adviser to BJ and likes to hire "super talented weirdos" and "Wildcards" to work for him in BJ's government. Recently one of them (Andrew Sabisky) had five minutes of fame before losing his job.

    After reading the article last month whilst away on holidays I'd kinda forgotten about it. But Britain's strategy in this crisis brought it clearly back to mind. It's well worth a read/listen and I think goes some way in explaining Britain's present stance.
    The article was written before the virus had spread in Britain.

    Not linking, it's easily googled.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,977 ✭✭✭✭Rjd2


    Christy42 wrote: »
    They have largely changed tack though and seem to be following most of the rest of the 1st world. I expect them to start shutting things down.

    Yes and no. They said last week there was always going to be a switch but its coming earlier than and expected.

    They are planning to quarantine the elderly from next week for 3 months which seems very hands on but I understand the logic.

    The issue with their strategy while its clearly more scientific than twitter thinks, they have not been on top of messaging whatsoever which is causing mayhem.

    The Netherlands seem to be adopting a similar approach also.


This discussion has been closed.
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