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Navan Rail Line

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12357…15

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    #122
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,619 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    No, because it would be a very expensive, very temporary fix and would still be slower than the buses.


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    #123
    donvito99
    Registered Users Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    L1011 wrote: »
    No, because it would be a very expensive, very temporary fix and would still be slower than the buses.

    If the service was approx 1 hour to Connolly it would be comparable with the bus options and would provide the capacity required to deal with the bus overcrowding problem. The journey time would be much more predictable also, the article which was published on the Bus Eireann services earlier in the year quoted regular passengers as saying that it could be 90mins easy when the traffic is bad.


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    #124
    ncounties
    Registered Users Posts: 270 ✭✭ncounties


    roadmaster wrote: »
    I am not sure if this has been posted before but there appears to be a group called Meath on track in place who are holding a public meeting at the end of the month in January . There link to the Facebook page is below, the only thing is looking through it seams to be more a political party running it then just the average joe soap.

    https://m.facebook.com/MeathOnTrack/

    The group reeks of Aontu, but I'm supportive of any noise that promotes the reinstatement of passenger rail services that are sorely needed in Ireland.


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    #125
    IE 222
    Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    What sort of journey time is expected via M3. Currently it takes 35mins from Docklands to M3. It's going to be roughly 60mins either way.

    I wouldn't be doing Drogheada as temp fix. Can't see how it's too expensive. M3 line is likely to cost over €600 million to complete. Upgrading the Drogheada line wouldn't cost much more than €100-€150million. Putting the remaining €450-500 million would deliver significant improvements.

    The Northern line is in major need of investment already and once Dart is extended it will be choked.

    Using Drogheada will also link 2 of the largest towns in the state.


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    #126
    roadmaster
    Registered Users Posts: 3,593 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    IE 222 wrote: »
    What sort of journey time is expected via M3. Currently it takes 35mins from Docklands to M3. It's going to be roughly 60mins either way.

    I wouldn't be doing Drogheada as temp fix. Can't see how it's too expensive. M3 line is likely to cost over €600 million to complete. Upgrading the Drogheada line wouldn't cost much more than €100-€150million. Putting the remaining €450-500 million would deliver significant improvements.

    The Northern line is in major need of investment already and once Dart is extended it will be choked.

    Using Drogheada will also link 2 of the largest towns in the state.

    If you send dozens of Navan commuter trains via Drogheda will that just not cause chaos on an already busy Dublin Belfast line?


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    #127
    donvito99
    Registered Users Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    roadmaster wrote: »
    If you send dozens of Navan commuter trains via Drogheda will that just not cause chaos on an already busy Dublin Belfast line?

    Every other ex Drogheda commuter could start ex Navan, other than having trains being more full there wouldn't be issues with slots.


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    #128
    CrabRevolution
    Registered Users Posts: 2,801 ✭✭✭CrabRevolution


    IE 222 wrote: »
    Is the Drogheda route apart of this review at all. That line is in fairly good condition and wouldn't require too much investment to bring it up to a better standard. The savings could be used to upgrade the Northern line with passing loops and some quad tracking. The low speed limit on it is just to save on the maintenance. As far as I know the most part of it is ex cwr from the cork line. A journey time of 60mins should be achievable. It doesn't need to run all stops between Dublin and Drogheada.

    Savings from what? There's not one cent allocated to Navan Rail. There's no money to save.
    ncounties wrote: »
    The group reeks of Aontu, but I'm supportive of any noise that promotes the reinstatement of passenger rail services that are sorely needed in Ireland.

    That's what I thought too. Tóibín will have a battle on his hands to keep his seat in the upcoming election now that he's left SF.
    His campaign is to focus entirely on the twin pillars of Navan Rail and Navan Hospital, in the hope that he'll be associated with "saving" them. Not sure if it will gain him votes, but it certainly can't lose them.


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    #129
    IE 222
    Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    roadmaster wrote: »
    If you send dozens of Navan commuter trains via Drogheda will that just not cause chaos on an already busy Dublin Belfast line?

    Not If the savings from upgrading the current Navan line is pumped into it. Regardless if the Drogheada line is upgraded or not the Northern line need a serious and costly investment. The line is choked as it is. It needs quad tracking to relieve it.


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    #130
    IE 222
    Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    CrabRevolution wrote: »
    Savings from what? There's not one cent allocated to Navan Rail. There's no money to save.

    Presuming the M3 line gets the go ahead, it's going to cost considerably more to build that than upgrading the Drogheada line.

    If the state is willing and considering splashing out upwards of €600 million on our railways we may as well get more bang for our bucks. There is a perfectly good rail line already serving Navan. The Northern line needs investment regardless. Combine the 2 together rather than spending 100s of millions on 2 separate projects.


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    #131
    CrabRevolution
    Registered Users Posts: 2,801 ✭✭✭CrabRevolution


    IE 222 wrote: »
    Presuming the M3 line gets the go ahead, it's going to cost considerably more to build that than upgrading the Drogheada line.

    If the state is willing and considering splashing out upwards of €600 million on our railways we may as well get more bang for our bucks. There is a perfectly good rail line already serving Navan. The Northern line needs investment regardless. Combine the 2 together rather than spending 100s of millions on 2 separate projects.


    There's no evidence that will happen within the next 15 years at least.


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    #132
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,542 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    donvito99 wrote: »
    Every other ex Drogheda commuter could start ex Navan, other than having trains being more full there wouldn't be issues with slots.

    The trains are already full to breaking point on the Northern Line.

    There is NO spare capacity on the trains at peak times, and there is, without significant infrastructure investment particularly between Howth Junction and Connolly, no spare paths either.

    It isn’t going to happen unless and until those capacity issues are addressed.


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    #133
    ncounties
    Registered Users Posts: 270 ✭✭ncounties


    LXFlyer wrote: »
    The trains are already full to breaking point on the Northern Line.

    There is NO spare capacity on the trains at peak times, and there is, without significant infrastructure investment particularly between Howth Junction and Connolly, no spare paths either.

    It isn’t going to happen unless and until those capacity issues are addressed.

    Just out of interest, what size are the sets ex. Drogheda? Three carriages?


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    #134
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,542 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    ncounties wrote: »
    Just out of interest, what size are the sets ex. Drogheda? Three carriages?

    Eight coach 29k sets.


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    #135
    ncounties
    Registered Users Posts: 270 ✭✭ncounties


    Was reviewing the NRA Traffic Data Site, and some of the figures being seen were quite interesting, so I thought it worthy of sharing. North of Navan, at the “TME 11 M03 Jn09 to Jn10” measuring location, there was an AADT of 12,408 vehicles in 2019, of which, 10.6% of vehicles were HGV (Source).

    By the time we get South of Dunshaughlin, to the “TME 03 M03 Jcn05 to Jcn06” measuring location, the AADT has risen to 21,623 vehicles in 2019 (no detail for HGV numbers). “TME 02 M03 Jn05 North-side Ramps”, the measuring location which covers the Southbound exit of the M3, at M3 Parkway, recorded 1,846 AADT in 2019, of which 6% of vehicles were HGV.

    Looking at rail figures, in 2018 (2019 figures not yet available), an average of 559 people boarded services at M3 Parkway (a 147% increase on 2012 figures), whilst 473 passengers alighted (a 104% increase on 2012) (Source).

    Elsewhere, CSO data from the 2016 census shows that of the 12,193 workers in Navan, 2,505 (or 20.5%) travel to Dublin city and suburbs for work, whilst for Dunshaughlin, 797 of it’s 1,842 workers (or 43.3%) do so (Source). The latter of which will no doubt have increased significantly with recent developments since 2016.


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    #136
    ohographite
    Registered Users Posts: 312 ✭✭ohographite


    donvito99 wrote: »
    Every other ex Drogheda commuter could start ex Navan, other than having trains being more full there wouldn't be issues with slots.

    That would make the journey time from Navan to Dublin very slow. Most of the Drogheda-Dublin commuter trains take an hour to complete their journey, so the journey time from Navan to Dublin in this case would be something like 1 hour 20 minutes.


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    #137
    SeanW
    Registered Users Posts: 8,740 ✭✭✭SeanW


    ncounties wrote: »
    The group reeks of Aontu, but I'm supportive of any noise that promotes the reinstatement of passenger rail services that are sorely needed in Ireland.
    There was a group called Meath On Track years ago, some Gaelgoir ran it, haven't heard from them in a long time. Guessing this new group/campaign is not connected with the old one.


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    #138
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 36,121 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    A campaign to improve signalling / capacity on the Northern line, maybe add additional track along portions of it allied to upgrade of the Drogheda -> Navan section for passenger services has a chance of success. It’s a broad catchment, the business case is compelling, it’s based on leveraging and improving existing infrastructure that is heavily used. There are also unlikely to be vested interests with political pull strongly opposed.

    The notion of a half billion plus project to build an entirely new section of track from the M3 Parkway to Navan is a no hoper when you think about all the things I mention above. That’s the bottom line here.


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    #139
    AAAAAAAAA
    Registered Users Posts: 251 ✭✭AAAAAAAAA


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    The notion of a half billion plus project to build an entirely new section of track from the M3 Parkway to Navan is a no hoper when you think about all the things I mention above. That’s the bottom line here.

    There is no way that this 35km of railway would cost half a billion.

    The EU give an estimation of €7.2m/km +/- ~20% for brand new conventional railway

    https://ec.europa.eu/regional_policy/sources/docgener/studies/pdf/assess_unit_cost_rail_en.pdf

    The terrain isn't particularly challenging, and Navan already has a railway going through it so there isn't an urban land-take required. The entire scheme would cost about €250m, there's little that is complex about it.

    Railway is not as expensive as Irish people think.


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    #140
    machaseh
    Registered Users Posts: 777 ✭✭✭machaseh


    If they build it, they should also electrify everything from navan all the way to dublin. Navan deserves a DART-level service (as does Drogheda).


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    #141
    CatInABox
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,231 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    machaseh wrote: »
    If they build it, they should also electrify everything from navan all the way to dublin. Navan deserves a DART-level service (as does Drogheda).

    This would only happen post Dart expansion, so both lines that Navan could conceivably use would already be electrified. In other words, Navan will definitely be an electric line.


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    #142
    ohographite
    Registered Users Posts: 312 ✭✭ohographite


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    A campaign to improve signalling / capacity on the Northern line, maybe add additional track along portions of it allied to upgrade of the Drogheda -> Navan section for passenger services has a chance of success. It’s a broad catchment, the business case is compelling, it’s based on leveraging and improving existing infrastructure that is heavily used. There are also unlikely to be vested interests with political pull strongly opposed.

    The notion of a half billion plus project to build an entirely new section of track from the M3 Parkway to Navan is a no hoper when you think about all the things I mention above. That’s the bottom line here.

    If the M3 Parkway to Navan line is reopened OR a new one is built following a similar route, a branch can be built off it to serve Rathoath and Ashbourne, and another branch can be built to Trim. These three towns have a combined population of 30, 000, so they're a catchment area which wouldn't benefit from a passenger service to Navan via Drogheda.


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    #143
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,241 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    AAAAAAAAA wrote: »
    There is no way that this 35km of railway would cost half a billion.

    The EU give an estimation of €7.2m/km +/- ~20% for brand new conventional railway

    https://ec.europa.eu/regional_policy/sources/docgener/studies/pdf/assess_unit_cost_rail_en.pdf
    And the trains?


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    #144
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users Posts: 6,703 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    ohographite wrote: »
    If the M3 Parkway to Navan line is reopened OR a new one is built following a similar route, a branch can be built off it to serve Rathoath and Ashbourne, and another branch can be built to Trim. These three towns have a combined population of 30, 000, so they're a catchment area which wouldn't benefit from a passenger service to Navan via Drogheda.

    Spurs are a terrible idea, they aare expensive, require additional rolling stock and it would just mean that each town has an inadequate service frequency. P&Rs and/or feeder buses are much more efficient and cost effective. Adding up the population of the three towns still gives a relatively small population, each is quite small in reality.


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    #145
    AAAAAAAAA
    Registered Users Posts: 251 ✭✭AAAAAAAAA


    Victor wrote: »
    And the trains?

    What about them? Probably only need another 2 trainsets to fill out the M3 Parkway's existing frequency on the extended line, what was it last time for Irish Rail, €3.5m a carriage for the 22000s? I don't see the Navan Service requiring more than a train every 30 odd mins.

    Another €35m for a couple of extra trains on top of the €250m for the railway so. Still much closer to the quarter billion than half billion figure


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    #146
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 36,121 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    AAAAAAAAA wrote: »
    What about them? Probably only need another 2 trainsets to fill out the M3 Parkway's existing frequency on the extended line, what was it last time for Irish Rail, €3.5m a carriage for the 22000s? I don't see the Navan Service requiring more than a train every 30 odd mins.

    Another €35m for a couple of extra trains on top of the €250m for the railway so. Still much closer to the quarter billion than half billion figure

    Using the figures you cite and adding on 20% contingency, you get €302.4m for 35km of track. Add on station builds and the trains and we’re up another ~€60m. You’ll have feasibility studies and consultancy costs, etc for another couple of million.

    I think we’re at €365m best case scenario not including land acquisition, inefficiency, procurement issues, political load, etc.


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    #147
    CatInABox
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,231 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    AAAAAAAAA wrote: »
    What about them? Probably only need another 2 trainsets to fill out the M3 Parkway's existing frequency on the extended line, what was it last time for Irish Rail, €3.5m a carriage for the 22000s? I don't see the Navan Service requiring more than a train every 30 odd mins.

    Another €35m for a couple of extra trains on top of the €250m for the railway so. Still much closer to the quarter billion than half billion figure

    As this will almost certainly be a expansion of the Dart line, they'll be using trains from the new dart order, whenever that gets going.


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    #148
    ncounties
    Registered Users Posts: 270 ✭✭ncounties


    ohographite wrote: »
    If the M3 Parkway to Navan line is reopened OR a new one is built following a similar route, a branch can be built off it to serve Rathoath and Ashbourne, and another branch can be built to Trim. These three towns have a combined population of 30, 000, so they're a catchment area which wouldn't benefit from a passenger service to Navan via Drogheda.

    If the the line to Navan were built, this would benefit those living in Trim by default, as what is now a 27.4km (25 minute) journey would become a 16km (14 minute) journey to Dunshaughlin, if the line was to follow the old alignment.

    I personally think an alignment to the east of the M3 at Dunshaughlin would be better, with a station placed around here, in conjuction with a southern distributor road (and proper cycle lane infrastructure), as well as improved pathways/cycle lanes towards the centre of the villiage, so that you don't have to drive, or be driven, to the station.


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    #149
    yannakis
    Registered Users Posts: 1,381 ✭✭✭yannakis


    ohographite wrote: »
    If the M3 Parkway to Navan line is reopened OR a new one is built following a similar route, a branch can be built off it to serve Rathoath and Ashbourne, and another branch can be built to Trim. These three towns have a combined population of 30, 000, so they're a catchment area which wouldn't benefit from a passenger service to Navan via Drogheda.

    Combined population is about double that to be frank.

    In the last census Ashbourne was ~15k, Ratoath ~12k, and Navan ~40k


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    #150
    MrAbyss
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 426 ✭✭MrAbyss


    AAAAAAAAA wrote: »
    Railway is not as expensive as Irish people think.




    that is because Irish Rail give TGV costings to even opening a siding.


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    #151
    roadmaster
    Registered Users Posts: 3,593 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    If the NX and 109x went in to the parkway it would help also


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