FG to just do nothing for the next 5 years.

efanton wrote: »

How else could it be the case?
FG are the only ones in government, and need I remind you they didn't even want the weekly leaders Q&A to take place or those other parties to exercise their role of holding the government to account?

Yawn, the election was a few months ago. The Dail was elected but have not been able to agree to elect a Taoiseach.

The last government, remain as a caretaker government as per the constitution.
That.is.all

As for other parties abdicating responsibility, no they are not.

Classic!
Yeap, the Greens, and their salads are playing ball, are they?

They are in opposition with absolutely no mandate to form a government because they simply do not have enough seats to form a government.

No one party has the mandate to form a government. Not FF, not FG, not SF.
FG are only in government because all other parties cannot agree on anything.
Yet, here you are in a thread titled, 'FG to just to nothing for the next 5 years', giving out about FG being in government still... as if its FG fault! Hilarious.

Its quite easy and simple to remove FG. Some other parties can form a coalition and vote for another Taoiseach.

If FG really wanted those parties to throw their shoulders behind the wheel they would have agreed to forming a Unity government.

Ah, so its FG fault that all the other parties cannot form a unity government now?
They have THAT much control over SF, FF, the Greens, SD, Labour etc...?
This is Machievilian stuff from Leo and Co!! :D

The Green party is a left of centre party as well as the Labour party. Why would it be at all reasonable to expect them to support FG which in Irish politics is the party furthest to the right?

Have the Greens indicated they want to form a left-wing government with SF, along with the SD's and Labour? Nope, they are too busying growing salads! Useless in times of crisis.

Green voters tend to be more middle class and urban, directly competing with FG for votes. Dare I say it, many of those voters will abandon the Greens and go back to FG/Labour/Other

If Micheal Martin cant get his party members to support the coalition then its not on them at all.

The comedy gold keeps on giving.

Tell me, if the leader of FF cannot get his party members to support a coalition with FG, that is.... FG's fault??? :D:D

What else can we blame FG for?
Liverpool being knocked out of the champions league maybe.
Dublin going for 6 in a row
The weather.
A pint bad I had on Christmas Eve. :pac:

At that point it is simply a case of FG no longer having the necessary mandate to remain in government.

They are not in government, they remain as a caretaker capacity until the Dail elects a new Taoiseach.
Again, let me repeat for the very slow learners. It's very very very easy to remove FG from 'government' in their caretaker capacity.

You get all the other parties and Indo's in a room, and some of them agree a program for government.
Once they have at least 81 TD's on board, BOOM!. Job done.

To say, FG is stopping every other TD and party, all 125 non-FG TD's from doing this, is just insanely stupid and foolish.

If it is put to FF party members and they reject a coalition they could also cancel the C&S agreement at the same time.

What the hell are you on about??
The C&S agreement is dead since Leo called the election! Catch up with reality.

It will then clearly a case of FG accepting that no government can be formed and making preparations for a new election when it is safe for one to take place.

That is actually the president's call. Clearly you have no idea about the constitution.

In the mean time they will either need to get a temporary confidence and supply agreement from enough parties so that they can remain in government until such time as it is safe for an election to take place, or if they fail in that allow the formation of a Unity government as an interim measure.

Jumping ahead of yourself I think.
No one really knows what's going to happen in the next month, never mind next few months.

Maybe if FF fail to get over the line with FF, they will turn to SF and watch the blood from their faces run dry.
Then the OP may well be correct! :pac:

And, if there is another election, it looks like FG could well be the biggest winners from it. So, FG are sitting OK for now.

You want FG out of their caretaker position? Then lobby all non-FG TD's.

efanton wrote: »

You complained that FG were the only ones doing anything. Now you agree that as per constitution it is their, and only their , responsibility to continue their duties until such time as a new government is formed.

It's not my complaint at all. People like yourself are complaining that FG have no mandate to be in government, but forgetting that they are there in a caretaker capacity only and in fact doing a stellar job at that, as seen in the polls.
FG is doing lots because it is their constitutional duty to do so. Its easy to run your mouth on twitter.

To argue that other parties are not carrying out their duty is ridiculous.

Other parties are sitting on the fence and afraid to take any action to form a new government. Chicken $hits that they are.

So are the Greens an opposition party or not?

In this Dail, they are neither as this Dail has no government.

Their only duty at this time is to hold the present government to account. They have no other constitutional power or duty.

They have a constitutional duty to vote for a Taoiseach and if they have the numbers form a government with another party. That's the nature of our politics. One cannot have it both ways. Pretend to be in 'opposition' when they are still negotiating a programme for the government during this Dail term. It doesnt work like that. There is no opposition and there is no government in this Dail.

Clearly if FG cannot form a government, then they have no legitimate right to remain in government.

FG will leave their caretaker position in government, the second the Dail votes for a new Taoiseach, Unless of course, FG are part of that new government.

You want FG out of their existing position, then get the other 125 TD's to agree on a position.

Yes, they can carry out their existing duties as per constitution, but it is also their duty to allow a new election take place or agree in the extraordinary circumstances we are currently in that a Unity government be formed unit such time it is safe to hold an election.

That is not actually within the remit of the old government. That is up to the president to decide. Look up the Constitution. If the main parties cannot form any government, the last Dail will be dissolved ONLY on the advice of the President of Ireland. He could, of course, tell them to go away and try harder.

Are you suggesting that FG cannot be removed from acting as government, and neither will they be removed because they will not concede a new election is required?
Are you suggesting it is within FG's right to hijack a constitutional anomaly that does not make clear instruction in the event of a hung Dail.

What the **** are you on about? This isn't some coup. Put down the Robbert Harris novel.

You are wrong again though.
There ALWAYS must be a government which has executive powers in Ireland.
Its written into the constitution. FG cannot just quite being in their caretaker position tomorrow, it would be unconstitutional to do so. To remove them, either get a majority of 81 TD's to vote for a new government or a new election must be called. Its quite simple.
No one is suggesting that FG carry on like they are for the next few years/months by the way. Lunatic stuff you are suggesting and no one but you wants to go down that path.

Its obvious that under current circumstance it is extremely unlikely a government can be formed. If FF vote not to form a coalition are you suggesting that FG will remain as is despite that decision and refuse to allow a new election?
That is the only Machiavellian thing going on at the moment.

Whats this now? FG are refusing to hold a new election... because they want to stay in power for ever and eva more..?? :pac:
Cut the fiction. You are going on on mad tin foil hat stuff now. Mad stuff. Come back to reality please, it misses you.

If FF and FG cannot agree or form a government, then I guess there will be another election. Its not exactly a controversial statement.

The Green, Labour, SD, SF Labour, FF or any other party are not obliged to do a thing.

Perhaps, but it we will see how they are rewarded at the ballot box when all they have done these past few months was sit on the fence and cash their wages. The Greens, in particular, have been disgraceful and they will get a rude awakening I think.

If they wish not to be part of a FF/FG collation they are perfectly within their rights to do so. Are you suggesting any political party must be forced to join a coalition so that a government can be formed? Are you suggesting that under no circumstances a new election should be called?

NO and NO.

You are obviously miss informed. The Green Party have always declared themselves as a Centre Left party.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Party_(Ireland)

They can call themselves what they want, but they get the vast majority of votes from young, urban, middle-class people, who would generally vote for the likes of Labour or FG. Now that we are staring down the battle of hard years, where jobs and the economy are front and centre again, I can see them going from 12 TD's back down to 2. The Greens dont do well in wartime situations, they are more of a plaything when times are good.


Quite the guilt complex you have going there. Why all this talk of blame. I never even used the word.

So if FF party members refuse to join a coalition it is their fault?

Who is 'they'?

FG clinging to power due to an anomaly in the constitution is not an abuse of power?

Ah, this conspiracy again. Tinfoil hats are over there --->

So your stance is there must be a government formed and that a new election is not possible?

Not at all. My stance to those peddling conspiracy bull**** about FG clinging to power is that its very very easy to remove them, but that requires people to have a backbone and step up to the plate and be counted.
FG are in government by default alone.

A new election is, of course, possible if no one wants the hot seats of power and be responsible. However, how one has an election in the current lockdown situation is not clear, but I guess that will be a tasty conspiracy to chew on in a few weeks/months.

FF abstained from any vote for a Taoiseach even though they were not obliged to do so. Mostly because they were continuing to honour an agreement that you rightly point out had expired.

Correct, the C&S is gone. No point even talking about it.

What call can the president make?
You really are a clown. You have the cheek to lecture someone else about the constitution and yet you do not realise the President has no power in this situation. He has performed his one and only duty by accepting Leo's resignation.
Now explain to me what the constitutions says in the event of a hung Dail?

Me a clown? Yet you make me laugh so so much!!
The President dissolves the Dail, not Leo.

The President gives the seal of office to the new Taoiseach and ministers when the Dail votes for a new Taoiseach. Until then, we are stuck with 160 TD's all trying to form a new government. The president can, of course, exert some soft power in this matter as well.

So why not call another election?

Today? Because we are in the middle of a global Pandemic, in case you forgot.

No I did not say that at all. I want FG to make up their minds. Leo has a very strange way of wanting to retire to the opposition benches as he claimed.
If FG think they will win another election the they should call for one. I think everyone would agree with them for a change.

There are about 11 different parties and groupings incl indo's in the Dail.
Only two of them are talking about forming the next government. That is FG and FF. I think its clear that FG have made up their minds. The rest want to take it easy it seems.

efanton wrote: »

Or were you talking about the RedC poll

Yes, the RedC poll that has FG as the most popular party at 34%

https://www.redcresearch.ie/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/423820-SBP-29-March-2020-Poll-Report.pdf

Albeit with the clear caveat regarding FG that this result would be meaningless in terms of an election

Would it really? Tell me than the seat numbers for the next GE ol'sage.

Other parties do not want to join a coalition that includes FG. Is that such a hard thing to understand?

FF do it seems. If the rest don't, then what party or coalition do they want to join, because none of them want to join ANY coalition it seems.

seriously. So you are stating that no party in currently in opposition?

In the 33rd Dail, which is the current Dail, there is no opposition. This is a fact.

Need I remind you that until a new government is formed FG are obliged to carry out their existing duties,

Corrrect, as per the Constitution.

nd so too are the parties that are not part of the existing caretaker government

Wrong, as per the Constitution. Here is a hint, there is NO caretaker 'opposition' :pac:

Where in the constitution does it say any TD MUST vote for a Taoiseach?

Must vote, nowhere. But the primary act of the Dail is to vote for a Taoiseach and thus form a government.

No party is negotiating a coalition.

Eh, what?

https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2020/0406/1128700-govt-formation-talks/

Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael meet again today for further discussions on government formation.

That is precisely the problem. Michael Martin is praying for a FF/FG coalition to be somehow formed simply because its his last and only chance of ever being Taoiseach and we both know that to be the case. What is happening is not a negotiation but a failed bid to form a coalition being deliberately dragged out. In the meantime ALL other parties have clearly rejected the offer from FG and FF to join them in coalition.

And that has nothing to do with FG.... so whats your point?

You are trying to duck a question here, but I will not let you.
If FG and FF cannot form a government would you agree that FG should call an election for the earliest safe opportunity, or are you contending that FG will continue to use a constitutional anomaly to remain as is in power?

I never suggested or dogged this question and I have no idea why you are pursuing this line as if there is come dangerous cabal of FG people out there wishing that FG cling to power indefinitely. It's weird really!

The answer is of course, yes. FG should call another election if no one wants the hot seat of power. But dare I say, those other parties who have been awfully quiet the past month or two may live to regret it. Especially the Greens and the likes of the SD's. Playthings in good times but useless when the chips are down.

So what I said initially is true. In the current circumstances it is up to Leo to tell the President to dissolve the current Dail.

Leo is acting Taoiseach from the 32nd Dail, not the current Taoiseach of the 33rd Dail.

You have some odd Tourette's thing going on with FG clinging to power or something as if FG are going to be remaining in power for the next few years in its current state. Is isolation getting to you? Go for a quick walk, it will do wonders.

So you are saying that at the end of this week or early next week when this framework document that FG/FF have spent weeks putting together does not persuade a 3rd party to join them Leo should advise the President that no government can be formed and preparations for a new election should take place?

I don't know, and neither do you. First of all they need a 3rd party to join them. Maybe they can get the Greens on board. Alan Kelly has been quiet on the subject, so maybe labor can get some change out of this.

The one thing is true, FF and FG are the only parties trying at the moment. The rest are playing Uno in their living rooms.

If after a few weeks when all avenues have been tried, another election will probably be inevitable. Again, not a controversial statement.

The president like any other citizen of the state can exert a soft word or two in the ear of Leo but that has no legal or constitutional force. Beyond that he has no power.

The president CAN refuse to dissolve the Dail, he has that power. He can tell Leo et all to go back and try again.

efanton wrote: »

That doesn't mean that those that support the current governments work combating this virus will vote FG in any forthcoming election though.

Perhaps not, but if there is another GE this year, the public will remember the hard work this FG caretaker government did, and they will also remember those who were absent from government formation talks.
In other words, another GE will produce very different results.

Again I will say it, Michael Martin wants a coalition because it is his last and only hope of becoming Taoiseach. There seems to be some doubt though that the FF party members will support him. Do you deny that to be the case?
In the mean time the majority of the Dail do not want such a coalition to be formed. Obviously they are biding their time for the next election where it is probable that the results will differ significantly to the previous election. FG might get a little bounce on account of their handling of the virus epidemic, but unlikely to be enough to give them any sort of majority, FF will lose yet more votes, SF are likely to gain significant numbers of seats and it is likely that now there is a 3rd party capable of leading a government the independents will lose seats that SF or the smaller parties will gain.

FF's problems are their own and nothing to do with FG.
The point does stand though, FF do want to try and enter government with FG, and its still early days to see what the rest are up to. Nothing is destined yet.

If you want to get really technical the constitution does not recognise political parties. It is the duty of every TD not a member of current government to hold that government to account, in effect they are in opposition.

Apart from the fact that there is no government in this Dail term as of yet, we have a caretaker government until that happens.
There is currently no opposition because we dont really have a new government.

Agreed, that is the primary aim. But it is not necessary for them to elect a taoiseach. What we have is a hung Dail, and the only solution is a new election.

You are mad for an election. Isolation definitely getting to you. :pac:

We do not know yet, if we have a hung Dail, because work is still being done regards a FF and FG coalition with a 3rd party. This could all be put to bed in the next few weeks and a new government voted in, or a new GE will be forthcoming if it fails.

We are into week nine now. Nine weeks and still not even close to forming a government.

Closer to forming one than last week.

You will concede that FF and FG cannot form a government on their own.

Of course, they need 81+ seats. Again, I am not an idiot. But you seem to think this is all a done deal. The tea leaves are not set yet, comrade.

That being the case, and having received a clear NO from all other parties what are they doing if not wasting time or dragging out the inevitable conclusion of a new election being called.

No, because they could still get the Greens or Labour or the Indo's on board.
Let's wait and see if FF and FG can agree to a Joint Framework paper. That will be phase one and a step closer.
The other parties can then say yay or nay at that stage.

If they cannot get 81 seats, then another election is on the way, but I think that is less likely at this stage than likely.

To be honest, I think FF and FF are being wise here. If all other smaller parties walk away, after FF and FG made the hard yards, then they can turn around to the likes of the SD's and Greens when the next election is called and call them out for their skittish behavior. Many of those TD's got in because of transfers. They won't be very transfer-friendly the next time out.

Anyway, it suits FG both ways. They will probably get a big bounce in the next GE, if called this year, or they get to remain in government. Win-win.

Surely FG would at the prospect of another election be delighted being that the only party that that is likely suffer badly will be FF.

Perhaps but as I said, I think the smaller parties will do just a badly. There will be a flight to the bigger parties I think, so SF and FG will likely come out better, FF well who knows, but the smaller parties like the SD' and Greens (who have done **** all) will suffer badly.

Thank you that all I wanted to hear. So you agree that once this framework document has be distributed to other parties and if it is rejected by them that a new election should be called

Are you hard of hearing? How many times do I have to answer the same question worded differently?

satguy wrote: »

If FG are about to lock themselves in an unholy marrage, where FF will be watching evey move they make.
It's best they get some of the sly moves in quick,, before they tie the knot.

So first up is, the boss, he has his own hospital here, and it's much better than the ones in Malta "where he lives" "cough".
But the boss has used up all his days here, and must fly home, as he is a "Tax Exile" and any longer here in Ireland might cause problems.

So now Leo steps in with this.

https://www.thejournal.ie/tax-exiles-revenue-relaxation-catherine-murphy-5067420-Apr2020/

He has a private jet. I'm not sure this would apply to him? Are there restrictions on private air traffic issued by the government? As flights are still going in and out of Ireland I would hope that he doesn't use this as a loophole.

efanton wrote: »

How else could it be the case?
FG are the only ones in government, and need I remind you they didn't even want the weekly leaders Q&A to take place or those other parties to exercise their role of holding the government to account?

As for other parties abdicating responsibility, no they are not.
They are in opposition with absolutely no mandate to form a government because they simply do not have enough seats to form a government.
If FG really wanted those parties to throw their shoulders behind the wheel they would have agreed to forming a Unity government.

The Green party is a left of centre party as well as the Labour party. Why would it be at all reasonable to expect them to support FG which in Irish politics is the party furthest to the right?

If Micheal Martin cant get his party members to support the coalition then its not on them at all. At that point it is simply a case of FG no longer having the necessary mandate to remain in government. If it is put to FF party members and they reject a coalition they could also cancel the C&S agreement at the same time.
It will then clearly a case of FG accepting that no government can be formed and making preparations for a new election when it is safe for one to take place. In the mean time they will either need to get a temporary confidence and supply agreement from enough parties so that they can remain in government until such time as it is safe for an election to take place, or if they fail in that allow the formation of a Unity government as an interim measure.

What a load of nonsense, particularly the piece in bold.

There are 125 non-FG TDs in the Dail, they can form a national Unity government without FG anytime that they want. Why won't they? Because they like whinging from the sidelines, they like other people taking decisions so that they can take the easy path and just criticise.

Sinn Fein and the rest are cowardly and afraid of responsibility. Power they want, power to do things they like, but responsibility for what happens, they run away from that.

At least SF, FF and FG actually give the appearance of wanting to govern.

The absolute state of the other parties. No point at all in voting for them, with them running away from having any accountability.

Very easy to throw stones as per Murphy above.

satguy wrote: »

Both the big two political parties in the UK are very financially independent.

But here is Ireland, one of our big political parties is bought and paid for, and his needs come first.

No, there isn't a single figure in Belfast controlling them, it is a collective of unsavoury individuals who pull the strings.

markodaly wrote: »

Ah, I see we have the DoB ghost being brought up now.
Scraping the bottom of the barrel lads, scraping the barrel!

Ghost?
Have you read the news in the last three days?