Galborough Court, Dublin?

rhapsody · 15-11-2011 8:41pm #1

Hi folks,

Another reading question from me... see attachment.

I think the place of birth reads as galborough court (with a small 'g' strangely), which I cant find on the census or in a general google search. Is there anything else it could be? Does anyone have any info that might help?

Thanks in advance

pinkypinky · 15-11-2011 9:08pm

That's a very oddly formed G. My first thought was badly written M making Malborough but there's another M formed normally.

Shane may have ideas when he sees this from his extensive directory collection (tangent: where did you get them, I'd love to have one myself so I could show my classes).

CeannRua · 15-11-2011 9:33pm

9 Alborough Court? Google search shows Aldborough Court in the Amiens St / North Strand area.

rhapsody · 15-11-2011 9:42pm

Thanks pinkypinky, yes I was thinking Shane would have some ideas

I would have though it was somehow related to Marlborough too, but there's clearly no 'r'. I'm thinking it cant really be a g, because its a lower case letter. We'll see what the night, and fresh eyes bring

rhapsody · 15-11-2011 9:49pm

CeannRua wrote: »

9 Alborough Court? Google search shows Aldborough Court in the Amiens St / North Strand area.

Thanks CeannRua for weighing in. There's still the problem of the registrar writing a lower case letter where it should be capitalized- strange. I looked at the 1901 & 1911 censuses & there's no Aldborough Court at all- avenue, place and square. I wonder was there some tiny alcove near there that was lumped in with avenue/place/square for the census. Again, I'm hoping Shane can take a guess at this!

shanew · 15-11-2011 11:22pm

my first thought would be number 9 Aldborough court ... it was off North Strand, so the registrar's district of Dublin No. 1 East fits..

src : Thom's 1885

Shane

P. Breathnach · 15-11-2011 11:28pm

rhapsody wrote: »

Thanks CeannRua for weighing in. There's still the problem of the registrar writing a lower case letter where it should be capitalized- strange. I looked at the 1901 & 1911 censuses & there's no Aldborough Court at all- avenue, place and square. I wonder was there some tiny alcove near there that was lumped in with avenue/place/square for the census. Again, I'm hoping Shane can take a guess at this!

Look at maps url]http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,716773,735297,7,3[/url. This one is centred on Aldborough Parade. Now switch to the historic 25" version. There's your Aldborough Court.

shanew · 15-11-2011 11:41pm

Aldborough Court in 1901 - http://census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/North_Dock/Aldborough_Court/

I dont see it on the 1911 census and it's not included in the 1914 street index.

@pinky - 2nd hand bookshops online and IRL, auctions, book fairs etc (they are not cheap items, especially the older ones). I could put you in touch with someone that had a few for sale if you like... I have a list from him from a little while ago... it might be out of date by now

Shane

shanew · 15-11-2011 11:47pm

there's a baptism for a sister of Thomas listed on IrishGenealogy in 1876, RC parish of St. Lawrence - same parents, and address - see : http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/2e4e360356147

Shane

rhapsody · 17-11-2011 8:55pm

Thanks Shane & P. Breathnach!

I had found the other Aldboroughs in Mountjoy DED, it didn't occur to me to check North Dock for more.

It seems from the map & census returns that what was Aldborough Court was just renamed Aldborough Parade between 1901 & 1911? (I can't see to view the maps properly at the moment, it might be clear from them- I'll look at them another time).

That record for the sister is interesting... Thomas is only listed as a nephew in both censuses & no-one in my family seems to know who his parents were. I'm not even sure this Thomas is the right one, I have births certs for two others. The search goes on!

rhapsody · 21-11-2011 2:50pm

A follow-up query:

The birth cert. I initially put up was for Thomas Fay, born, 1887, parents James & Mary Ann, of Aldborough Court, North Dock, Dublin 1
As Shane found, James & Mary also had a daughter (Mary) in 1876 with address as Alborough Court. I found daughters Catherine, born 1880, family at Canning Place, North Dock, Dublin 1 & Margaret, born 1878, no address listed.

In both censuses, there's a *John* & Mary Ann Fay living in Jane Place Lower, North Dock, Dublin 1.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/North_Dock/Jane_Place_Lower/1275290/

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/North_Dock/Jane_Place_Lower/15047/

Since all the addresses listed above are so close together, since I cant find another likely James & Mary Ann, since the P. Hynes listed in 1901 is related.... I would guess that these are Thomas' people. BUT he's there in 1911 listed as a nephew. Is there any reason why he'd be down as a nephew? e.g. to imply he's a visitor, because having too many people listed as living in the house might cause problems? Or would this John living in Jane Place Lower be James' brother? (& if so, where are James & Mary Ann?) If this is the case, I think it's an odd coincidence that two brothers would marry Mary Anns.

Anyway, objective opinions greatly welcomed!

pinkypinky · 21-11-2011 3:09pm

If he was a visitor, i.e. not living in the house but present on the night of the census, then he would be listed as a visitor. By indicating nephew, I think they are saying that he lives there. I've seen someone's father listed as a visitor because he did not live in the house...took me a while to prove he was the father because of it!

Do you have the marriage cert for John and Mary Ann? It might have siblings on it.

This John on the census originally came from Louth and his first 2 kids were born in Meath. Have you looked in Fays in Louth/Meath? The nephews are not present in 1901 so they were probably with their own parents.

rhapsody · 21-11-2011 3:20pm

pinkypinky wrote: »

This John on the census originally came from Louth and his first 2 kids were born in Meath. Have you looked in Fays in Louth/Meath? The nephews are not present in 1901 so they were probably with their own parents.

I just want to answer this bit quickly, will look for John & Mary Ann's marr cert. in a sec (is that right, there might be siblings on it? I've never seen anything like that).

Thomas is a nephew in Meath in 1901, John & Mary Ann's son William is with him (as nephew obviously). Re the other nephew, James, there's a few options in 1901 (all Dublin)- not sure which one he is.

rhapsody · 21-11-2011 3:31pm

No, I dont have John & Mary Ann's marr. cert; five possibilities for Johns marrying Marys on Family search, none for John + Mary Ann.

pinkypinky · 21-11-2011 3:47pm

rhapsody wrote: »

I just want to answer this bit quickly, will look for John & Mary Ann's marr cert. in a sec (is that right, there might be siblings on it? I've never seen anything like that).

As in, the witnesses are often siblings.

rhapsody · 21-11-2011 4:05pm

pinkypinky wrote: »

Do you have the marriage cert for John and Mary Ann? It might have siblings on it.
.

I read this so quickly, I took it as siblings of Thomas etc. Of course I've seen siblings of the bride & groom as witnesses- tis very handy. Silly me!

adee · 21-11-2011 10:13pm

I have a marriage cert for a Mary Fay. Father's name is James Fay. She is the Mary, Shane linked to earlier - daughter of James Fay and Mary Anne Tiernan. She married at St Lawrence O' Toole in 1902.
and the address of both bride and groom on the cert is 25 Lower Jane Place.
In 1901 her husband is living at 14 JPL and the Fay's at 17 JPL
In 1911 she and her husband ar at 25 JPL and the Fay's at 24 JPL !!
Obviously, have looked at this Fay family before but I have the same problem as you. The father is a John and not a James. He is James everywhere, except on the census returns. Now after reading your problem with Thomas being called a Nephew I am convinced they are the Family of James's brother John. I would look for a death record for Mary Anne Tiernan/Fay (causing the family to split up ? sometime between 1887 and 1901) In 1901 census there are a couple of lone James Fay's in Meath.
James Fay + Mary Anne Tiernan marriage record:
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/bf813c0100169
James Fay's parents Patrick Fay and Mary Fulham
married 8 Sept 1842, Stamullen, Co Meath (sorry don't have a link)
I was looking to work in reverse with them and see if they had both a John and a James but no luck on that yet.

rhapsody · 22-11-2011 12:02am

Wow, thanks Adee! (What are the chances that someone on here would have a cert thats kinda related to mine??!!) I also have the Patrick Fay/ Mary Fulham marriage listed in my notes from when I was going through parish records- I didn't think they were related to the later Fays; glad I wrote it down now!

Who did Mary Fay marry? I'm not sure which family you mean from your census refs. There are a few possibilities for Mary Ann Fay's death (I was guessing both parents had died), too many to go buying certs in the GRO yet

I did various searches on Family Search but haven't found Patrick & Mary's children's birth refs. Will keep going in the daylight! Thanks again, good to know these Fays aren't bothering only me :P

adee · 22-11-2011 2:51am

Hey, I was pretty surprised when I saw this thread myself.
I just had Patrick Fay and Mary Fulham's names from the
marriage record of James and Mary Anne that I posted above and then found the marriage on Ancestry. You seem to have put a lot more work into your searching.

I got my census refs a bit wrong - corrected below, so
In 1901 her husband is living at 25 JPL and the Fay's at 17 JPL
In 1911 she and her husband are at 14 JPL and the Fay's at 26 JPL

this is her at No 14 in 1911
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/North_Dock/Jane_Place_Lower/14959/
she has married a widower - my g.grandfather (he is older that he is letting on - he's actually 55 in 1911) and you can see they are having a second family. Her first born is called James I notice. Frank (her husband) died in 1931, when they had moved to Oriel St. You can see her still there in the 1939 Electoral Register with her step daughter Mary Anne Caulfield and her family.
http://www.dublinheritage.ie/electoral/index.php
Also in that register there are still lots of Fay's still on JPL in 1939.
At No 1 there is James Jnr and Ellen. At no. 24 is Patrick, Mary Anne, John and Thomas - , haven't done the maths as I just found that now.
I've also not found any children for Patrick Fay and Mary Fulham, which is odd because Ancestry has a lot of baptisms for Louth and Meath online, but it's a long time since I looked so I'll go back and search again. Let me know if you find anything. I mean we know already that they had a James so we need the John really.
Also it's just conjecture on my part that Mary Ann Fay has died, but sure looks to me like a family being farmed out to the relatives. I wouldn't be convinced that James has died also, it's just my impression at the moment - nothing scientific.
Other thing with that family that's not working (for me) is that John/Mary Anne Fay have a 22 yr old daughter called Mary Smith living with him. So that would be 2 daughters called Mary. not likely. But on Mary Fay's marriage cert one of the witnesses is a Mary Smith (her cousin?) the other is James Fay - father/brother/cousin ? Who knows.
Anyway you have inspired me to revisit my Fay family - I put it on the long finger a while ago. Sorry can't help with your Thomas - never knew he existed till I saw your cert. Cheers for that.

rhapsody · 22-11-2011 10:58am

adee wrote: »

Hey, I was pretty surprised when I saw this thread myself.

this is her at No 14 in 1911
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/North_Dock/Jane_Place_Lower/14959/
she has married a widower - my g.grandfather (he is older that he is letting on - he's actually 55 in 1911) and you can see they are having a second family. Her first born is called James I notice. .

One thing about this though, is they're listed as being married 26 years in 1911- given Mary's age that's not possible of course. I guess this is correct for Frank if you add up his total married years, but why would it be listed beside Mary too?

I've never looked up electoral rolls before, will take a look at Jane Place Lower & try to make sense of the families.

So you're looking on Ancestry & I'm looking on Family Search for Patrick Fay & Mary Fulham's children & we're both finding nothing even though we know they had at least James. Maybe someone on here might have a suggestion on whats going on here.

Re the two Marys, Mary Smyth/Smith might be James & Mary Ann's daughter Margaret, born 1878?

Thomas was always a bit of a mystery for me; apart from anything else, I was always told he was an only child!

adee · 23-11-2011 12:07am

Frank first married in 1883 and was widowed in 1899 remarried in 1902 so in 1911 26 years married works fine for him - I don't know why he put that by her name as well, illiteracy, vanity - who knows ? (possibly same reason he took 10 years off his age and caused me a mountain of grief !)
I had another look on Ancesrtry for children of Patrick Fay and Mary Fulham, nothing again. Also I think the civil records on Familysearch begin in 1864 so not likely to find anything there either, not sure where their baptism records are from.
Re: the two Marys - I did think of that, definitely Mary/Margaret are interchangeable names. But that would mean that as Mary (Margaret) Smith is John's daughter. That would also mean that Mary Fay is John's daughter, but her father is called James !!!! On my end, I think they are two brothers, John and James, both married to Mary Anne's, both have daughters called Mary. (with the amount of Mary's, Margaret's, and Mary Anne's I have found that makes perfect sense to me)
Sorry - can't help further, if anyone else thinks they can or has an opinion then would really love to hear.

You did mention that this is one of 3 possibilities for your Thomas, perhaps this one is not yours at all. In my (very,very) limited experience, the little bits of info I have learned from family have turned out to be far more accurate than any tangents I have gone off on my own.

rhapsody · 23-11-2011 10:03pm

adee wrote: »

Frank first married in 1883 and was widowed in 1899 remarried in 1902 so in 1911 26 years married works fine for him - I don't know why he put that by her name as well, illiteracy, vanity - who knows ? (possibly same reason he took 10 years off his age and caused me a mountain of grief !)
I had another look on Ancesrtry for children of Patrick Fay and Mary Fulham, nothing again. Also I think the civil records on Familysearch begin in 1864 so not likely to find anything there either, not sure where their baptism records are from.

Sorry - can't help further, if anyone else thinks they can or has an opinion then would really love to hear.

You did mention that this is one of 3 possibilities for your Thomas, perhaps this one is not yours at all. In my (very,very) limited experience, the little bits of info I have learned from family have turned out to be far more accurate than any tangents I have gone off on my own.

God Frank McGrane didn't make it easy for you!
I forgot about the year range for Family Search, I'm usually at the other end of it i.e. I'm looking for births that are too late so I didn't think of these being too early.
I know what you mean about going off on a tangent! As I mentioned above though, the Patrick Hynes living at JPL in 1901 is definitely related & I'm now sure this is the right Thomas. I checked back over my other birth certs the other day & they're both Meath- which was an outside possibility since he ended up there- but in both censuses he's listed as being from Dublin. I KNOW its him, I just cant work backwards & prove his relation to e.g. P. Hynes and the rest of my clan :mad:

adee · 07-12-2011 7:46pm

rhapsody
I found some military records of a Thomas Fay, Born: Parish of Lawrence O'Toole 1890 with an address of 1 Upper Oriel Street, who joined the Royal Dublin Fusileers - Special Reserve in 1906/7 on a contract for 6 years aged 16.
Next of Kin: Father James - 16 Lower Jane Place.
Then later in 1915 - Next of Kin: Brother James (15) 26 Lower Jane Place
???? Ring any bells.

rhapsody · 07-12-2011 9:32pm

Hi adee,

Where did you get that from?! That sounds like himself alright, though all I was ever told was that he fought in WWI & his death cert says, "Broncho pneumonia agravated by war gassing"

I must look up the Royal Dublin Fusiliers now, I dont know anything about them.
Re the brother James, there is a nephew James in JPL in 1911 when Thomas is listed as a nephew there: http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/North_Dock/Jane_Place_Lower/15047/
I wondered if they were brothers or cousins. He is older than Thomas though & going by the military record he should be younger. There could be two James' of course... dam these Fays.
Thanks so much for this info, do let me know where you got it from

adee · 07-12-2011 10:26pm

I had been looking for all the older Fays it never ocoured to me to look for Thomas !
It's him alright so, because I can see a report about him being gassed in 23/5/15 France I think.
They are on Ancestry.co.uk - have you access to that ?
He seems to have purchased his discharge in 1908 for Two pounds and then joined up again in 1911.
I made a mistake on the
Next of Kin: Father James - 16 Lower Jane Place.
I think it says "Brother James" there as well.
Sorry, I'm rubbish at reading the handwriting and some of it is not so clear, so where I thought it said (16) after James's name I think it may be (E), so forget that as well.
Also another next of kin in 1911 is Maggie Fay - Aunt. 36 Upper Buckingham Street.
Ancestry do a 14 day free trial - and so long as you cancel in time you won't have to pay anything.

rhapsody · 07-12-2011 11:25pm

Thanks adee, yeah I'm on older Fays myself but its good to know more about Thomas, I have family who knew his daughter very well and would appreciated hearing more about him I think.
I did the 14 day trial before with Ancestry though I didn't get much info because I didn't have enough info to start with. I might do it over Christmas when I have time to really get into it, I have 3 or 4 unrelated (unless through me!) people to look up, who were in various armed forces.
Thanks again

adee · 11-08-2012 7:59pm

Hi rhapsody
how are you getting on with the search for the Fay's ?
Saw this and thought you might be interested. A Prison record for Thomas Fay 26 Jane Place from 1912.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/KM7M-G43
There is another record for the same ofence for his cousin Bernard (John's son) also of 26 Jane Place. (they were let off with a caution)
You can see that Thomas gives his Next of Kin as Brother James. But, on the other record, Bernard gives his Next of Kin as Father John. So I think more proof that John is Thomas's uncle. Also I notice he gives Place of Birth as 'Henry Pl Off Henry St' and a search on Irishgenealogy shows another sister for him a Christina born 1890 -
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/search.jsp?name2fm=&name2l=&namefm=&namel=fay&location=HENRY+PLACE+&dd=&mm=&yy=&submit=Search&sort=&pageSize=100&type=B&diocese=&parish=&century=&decade=&exact=&ddB=&ddM=&ddD=&mmB=&mmM=&mmD=&yyB=&yyM=&yyD=&locationB=&locationM=&locationD=&member0=&member1=&member2=&member3=&member4=&member5=&member6=&member7=&member8=&member9=&namef0=&namef1=&namef2=&namef3=&namef4=&namef5=&namef6=&namef7=&namef8=&namef9=&namel0=&namel1=&namel2=&namel3=&namel4=&namel5=&namel6=&namel7=&namel8=&namel9=&keyword=
plus a bunch of other Fays all living cheek to jowel at Henry Place.

Looking back at what I'd written before I noticed that Thomas gave an address of 1 Up Oriel Street when he signed up in 1911. That should have rung a bell with me because I know his sister Mary and her family lived at 6 Up Oriel Street in the 1920's and 1930's and then moved to number 24.
She died there in 1961.
Anyway looking at the 1901 census shows a William Fay born Louth living there.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/North_Dock/Oriel_St__Upper/12619/
A brother for John and James ?
More questions than answers

but throwing a few more names in the pot might help the search back to the Louth/Meath Fays.

EDIT - Forgot to add that I found a wedding for Michael Fulham and Margaret Banon in Stamullen, 26 Nov 1841 with witness Mary Fulham. Could well be her - haven't found anything else at all !!

Mollymoo19 · 12-08-2012 5:26pm

Adee, sorry to butt in; I've no information on the older Fays only I'm interested in any information on your McGrane line above; Frank McGrane of Jane Place may be my G.G.Granduncle - son of Miles McGrane and Margaret Doyle, born 14 Apr 1856 at Saul's Court Fishamble St.? He married Margaret Byrne in Sept. 1883. (both records on irishgenealogy.ie) Margaret had died by 1901 and he'd remarried Mary by 1911 census. I'd no information on the Fays though interestingly a James Fay lived with my GG Grandparents in 1 JPL; Jame's wife Margaret Fay died in 1932, aged 43 and is buried with my GG Grandparents, so I wonder if this Fay connection was through Mary Fay?

adee · 12-08-2012 7:25pm

Mollymoo19 wrote: »

Adee, sorry to butt in; I've no information on the older Fays only I'm interested in any information on your McGrane line above; Frank McGrane of Jane Place may be my G.G.Granduncle - son of Miles McGrane and Margaret Doyle, born 14 Apr 1856 at Saul's Court Fishamble St.? He married Margaret Byrne in Sept. 1883. (both records on irishgenealogy.ie) Margaret had died by 1901 and he'd remarried Mary by 1911 census. I'd no information on the Fays though interestingly a James Fay lived with my GG Grandparents in 1 JPL; Jame's wife Margaret Fay died in 1932, aged 43 and is buried with my GG Grandparents, so I wonder if this Fay connection was through Mary Fay?

Mollymoo19 - How amazing!! Yes, that's the same Frank Mc Grane. His first wife Margaret died 1900 and he married Mary Fay in 1902. Hence my researching the Fay family as well.
NEVER in my life did I think I'd come across anyone else researching him. Would LOVE to swap information.
I'm gathering your GG Grandmother is his sister Margaret at 1 JP ?
I have all my info on line so you are welcome to see that if you want.
look forward to hearing from you -

Victor · 12-08-2012 8:51pm

rhapsody wrote: »

Thanks CeannRua for weighing in. There's still the problem of the registrar writing a lower case letter where it should be capitalized- strange. I looked at the 1901 & 1911 censuses & there's no Aldborough Court at all- avenue, place and square. I wonder was there some tiny alcove near there that was lumped in with avenue/place/square for the census. Again, I'm hoping Shane can take a guess at this!

Traditionally, in Irish writing, a capital letter a is more like an "a" than an "A", as demonstrated in the Ceanannas font here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaelic_type

Mollymoo19 · 13-08-2012 8:36am

Yes Adee, Margaret McGrane born 1851 is my G.G.Grandmother. Wow!! By my reckoning, that makes us third cousins once removed. I have Margaret's parent's BMDs and some information on her grandparents and siblings. I'm happy to swap everything I have, but am not sure how to go about it; I'm new here so I can't PM anyone for another 20 posts, I believe? I would be very interested in seeing what you have online and hearing any family lore that got passed down - is it publicly available? Wow again!

Galborough Court, Dublin?

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